Levi's takes on Japanese Denim Resellers and Manufacturers

[Ashez]

ddml- true but if any levis execs saw the picture i imagine they'd be saying in a hick voice of course....

"what the fuck? we didnt make those? why is this famous black guy wearing these and not real levis, Marv!?"

"sir these are them japanese repro's. They're huge in the underground denim market right now."

"what the fuck! Japanese levis!? repros!? Sue these bastards! This rapper should be promoting levis not these no name jeans that are more expensive than our levis! For christ sake Marv, we've got share holders!!!!!!"

hahaha can't stop laughing at this, nice one ;D

[weirdnjfan1]

So I guess that Levi's will be going after American Eagle and Abercrombie and Fitch next, due to the fact that the use the pocket cards too?

[10(50)]

*swallows a balloon full of red tabs and heads for the border*

[Kodak]

Hmm, after reading through this I have a question. (like I know anything above basic copyright laws) What is the difference between these copyrights that Levi is suing these companies, but Nike is not suing Bape, GG , Madfoot and etc that openly copy shoes models?

[airfrogusmc]

Kodak I think the problem is the shape of the arcuate and the tag on the pocket are trade marked. Arcuates that have a much different shape like Lees or Wrangler are apparently not a problem.

[mr.indigo]

smuggling Japanese repros into the States? reminds of when it was illegal to take Levis into Soviet Russia.

oh the irony.

[Geowu]

are the Japanese customs really enforcing it right now? I wonder how long will it take so that we will be able to buy denim from some brands again

[Neilfuji]

Hmm, after reading through this I have a question. (like I know anything above basic copyright laws) What is the difference between these copyrights that Levi is suing these companies, but Nike is not suing Bape, GG , Madfoot and etc that openly copy shoes models?

Nike do not carry copyrights on shapes and it helps Nike business to have Bape make the good sneaker they have forgot now too!!!!

and no it doesn't help Levis to have 'there shape' copied, it's al they have, bape are niche and will add to the process plus Nike have hundreds of shapes and we all see the Bapes as rip off nike not the other way around..oh and there no F**KING tradmark on them!!!!

again with clothing it only take a little to change it, thus no copyright problem Levis are TRADEMARK issues!

can you stop asking this question now?

[swisloc]

It doesn't matter how small an infringing company is. If you are a big company protecting assets (and in Levi's case, their biggest asset IS their trademark as it is, along with nike and others, among the MOST KNOWN TRADEMARKS in the world) you HAVE to protect that asset. This unfortunately means going after small companies who are (partially) atempting to make money by co-opting your trademark. I am not an economist, but if this concept isn't in ECON 101, it certainly must be in ECON 102. To think anyone working at levis should let this slide simply because they are little guys making good quality products is asinine. this is exactly why levis HAS to fight them, they make a better quality product that co-opts their label.

Is it unfortunate? sure, but only because they had to halt production for a month or so. If they are responsible companies they will come back with updated looks that become classics in their own right (think evisu, who was also delivered court orders by levis years ago).

The way for these companies to "win" is it keep interest in their product growing by devloping more distinct and singular identities (while retaining the quality of course). while we may quickly be able to identify the difference between SDA, FULLCOUNT, Samurai, FlatHead, SugarCane, etc. the average consumer, at a glance, cannot. They had to know this was coming at some point, and if they are worth their salt as companies they will push past this (as they already have by distinguishing themselves from each other in denim type, quality, and fits).

[airfrogusmc]

If anyone ever used Nikes swish they'd be all over it as would Macdonalds if anyone used the arches or big mac etc. If a big corporation can't protect there trade mark/copyright how could then how could a small business protect theres. This is just a matter of respecting trade mark. And if the law won't hold up on the side of Levis whats to keep anyone from taking anything they like like copyright photographs, music etc.

[Guest jeffvyain]

This issue has nothing to do with copyright. Copyrights essentially protect art and designs (not designs for products--that would be a patent). Levi's is getting their panties in a twist about trademarks here. And honestly, they should've raised a stink about it a long time ago if they want to practice good business. Trademarks are only valid if they are in use, and the ability of a company to argue its case in court depends on the strength of the trademark. Other companies, such as these japanese repros, infringing on Levi's trademark only weakens the Levi's trademark, thereby weakening their case in court. If Levi's allows these companies to get bigger and to further weaken their trademark, if some huge company down the line decided to produce Levi's-looking jeans without Levi's allowing them to, they could argue that other companies are doing it all over the world and that their trademark is no longer valid, and they could take a huge chunk of Levi's piece of pie in the market.

In my opinion, yea, Levi's isn't making quality product, so fuck 'em. And yea, the majority of the people buying these repros aren't buying them as a substitute for Levi's. Personally, I'd have just bought some APCs or PBJs if Samurai and SD weren't around. So it's not like Levi's is losing any signifcant money over the existance of these companies, even if they are doing minimal business in America. But they are losing the strength of their trademark.

The one thing that I have a problem with is that I don't believe most of the arcuates or the tabs or the leather patches are close enough, in this market, to infringe. Are they very close? Yes. But are they so close that the average consumer could mistake your jeans for Levi's and then proceed to buy those instead of Levi's? No. Not at all. They have difference company names and different branding. The average consumer is never going to come into contact with these jeans. There are so many jean companies out there, and at this point, the little stitching on the back of the jeans looks almost the same for many companies. The only difference is that their trademarks aren't nearly as strong so it's not as strong of an infringement. But I personally remember lucky jeans and express jeans at one point having almost identical back pocket stitching. I really couldn't tell them apart. I don't see why, in Samurai's case, for example, an obviously asymmetrical arch with a line under it would look like a symmetrical arch, which, by the way, has been changing in depth for the past 100 years. I think it could be argued in court that these are different enough that there is no confusion caused between the brands--at least not enough to be infringement. Levi's has such a stronghold on the branding in the jeans market that no other company can make a product that looks anything like it, yet they can all make products that look exactly like each other?

There was a point when Aspirin's trademark over their company name got so strong that they lost all validity to their trademark at all, because everyone was calling the stuff that relieves headaches Aspirin, and now all companies can put the name Aspirin on the bottle, because it is no longer the branding of a product, but the product itself. There is a very fine line to walk when you're at the top, and I think some of Levi's branding is crossing over that line.

[denimdestroyedmylife]

If anyone ever used Nikes swish they'd be all over it as would Macdonalds if anyone used the arches or big mac etc.

[Neilfuji]

It's not the stopping of production, on the most part that all done now, it's about CASH FLOW

if you've finshed your production or half way through it you need to ship to make back that HUGE outlay (COME ON....) the japanese denim business are small niche business on the whole and can't afford to lost the money

did you read the other posts?

getting bored of saying this now....

I'm close to giving up on you...it's not all piles of cash and fast cars dude, it's a business, it need feeding money to live..... this stop the cashflow at the time they all need it the most

Neil

It doesn't matter how small an infringing company is. If you are a big company protecting assets (and in Levi's case, their biggest asset IS their trademark as it is, along with nike and others, among the MOST KNOWN TRADEMARKS in the world) you HAVE to protect that asset. This unfortunately means going after small companies who are (partially) atempting to make money by co-opting your trademark. I am not an economist, but if this concept isn't in ECON 101, it certainly must be in ECON 102. To think anyone working at levis should let this slide simply because they are little guys making good quality products is asinine. this is exactly why levis HAS to fight them, they make a better quality product that co-opts their label.

Is it unfortunate? sure, but only because they had to halt production for a month or so. If they are responsible companies they will come back with updated looks that become classics in their own right (think evisu, who was also delivered court orders by levis years ago).

The way for these companies to "win" is it keep interest in their product growing by devloping more distinct and singular identities (while retaining the quality of course). while we may quickly be able to identify the difference between SDA, FULLCOUNT, Samurai, FlatHead, SugarCane, etc. the average consumer, at a glance, cannot. They had to know this was coming at some point, and if they are worth their salt as companies they will push past this (as they already have by distinguishing themselves from each other in denim type, quality, and fits).

[Roulette]

I read all of this and there is some really good points. I really see this as a revolution rather than a downfall. The japanese can be so creative and I think they will apply this. As for Levis, it isn't new that they are on the repros companies backs, its been like that for a while. Worst comes to worst is that a denim company will close and i feel that is stupid because they live for making denim and its a small business and little people know about it. My local shop here has to cut the red tabs off of Full Count, Samurai, Evisu, and Canes because of Levis policies.

[mikesduc]

Just curious what somebody on the ground over there thinks.

[cheapmuthafukr]

i hope we dont lose too many producers in this.

i hope grodan and kiya and thier firends and families will pull thru and not lose thier ass for trying to provide a product they loved and believed in.

i hope samurais without the details are not like a public enemy track without samples.

in the end, the market will be different. either the small companies will recover and stand on thier own designs, or they will be destroyed by this. only time will tell.

and i for one will continue to buy VINTAGE levis... ive had no desire to buy new levis for a long time.

[swisloc]

If anyone ever used Nikes swish they'd be all over it as would Macdonalds if anyone used the arches or big mac etc. If a big corporation can't protect there trade mark/copyright how could then how could a small business protect theres. This is just a matter of respecting trade mark. And if the law won't hold up on the side of Levis whats to keep anyone from taking anything they like like copyright photographs, music etc.

here, here... i'm surprised any of these companies made it as far as they did without getting nailed. Unfortunately, probably their biggest mistake (besides "copying" the trademarks in the first place) was trying to make their product more available to the american consumer.

[swisloc]

It's not the stopping of production, on the most part that all done now, it's about CASH FLOW

if you've finshed your production or half way through it you need to ship to make back that HUGE outlay (COME ON....) the japanese denim business are small niche business on the whole and can't afford to lost the money

did you read the other posts?

getting bored of saying this now....

I'm close to giving up on you...it's not all piles of cash and fast cars dude, it's a business, it need feeding money to live..... this stop the cashflow at the time they all need it the most

Neil

take it easy, if you read my post you will see (quite clearly) that i AGREE with you. I am not one of the ones saying the court order is bullshit. I may have gotten a few things wrong, but you have had the most salient posts in this thread! I'm on board.

[sidneylo]

Neil makes a helluva good point. This debacle will be tough because of the current invested monies in the latest shipments. To have most of their money invested, having them be returned, they don't have much money to change the production line process and keep the quality for this current batch. Lots of recovery needed.

And the point with trademarks being less valid as Levi's have sat and let them slide for so long is a very good point. This situation sucks because they waited so long. If they had put their foot down from the beginning, the trademark would be a lot more valid, and we wouldn't be in an uproar right now.

[thelion1856]

i agree sidneylo they should have done this before these japanese brands really started taking off. that way they wouldnt be in such a tuff position. it will be hard for them to change. that is what worries me. They will most likely come out with a temporary alternative to what they got now and then later change it to something else.

This only gives them a short window of creativity, whereas if levis did this much earlier (like a year ago) some of these new brands would have came into the biz already legal.

[SoloC]

I have got an idea for a tee shirt!

Put all the arcuate on the front and Levis on the back of the tee shirt.

The front should be like the repro accenting to Heaven, and Levis decenting to Hell.

Some shit like that, but I hope someone will improve it.

[tangerine]

I feel badly for Kiya and co., Gordon and co., and all the manufacturers who are losing their season's production as Neil has pointed out. I hope everyone pulls through alright.

As for the denim, I am more interested in the denim and the construction than the branding details. I do love the SDA pigs but I think SDA has demonstrated many pig designs that do not involve two pigs pulling on something so I am not worried about that. I am confident Toshiko is right and high quality denim will continue to be produced by those companies formerly making "repros." I am only worried about the companies that may not make it through.

I agree with the person who said "if you hate Levis I question if you really love denim." Levis will always be iconic and I will not be destroying my LVC anytime soon. That said, I regret that what they are doing is causing far more harm to those being sanctioned than was ever done to Levis.

My favorite quote so far, bolding is mine:

... I understand its a global thing so the repro companies will have to chage their product, but if the left overs are available in some mom and pop shops, then I'm confident they'll breeze thru customs. you just declare a shit instead of pants....

If I worked in customs, I definitely would not want to open a package labeled Contents: shit.

[the black arm]

Again just make jeans that don't infringe on trade mark. It doesn't matter if someone is making X better than y. If y has the trade mark then X has to make products that don't infringe on that trade mark, Its that simple. Don't be surprised of pissed when y legally protects what is theirs to protect.

airfrog I agree with your general sentiment, but lets not assume that just because levi's is suing a company, that company is actually infringing a trademark, those issues are for a court to decide, and most likely won't have to because it will be cheaper for the little guys to change then fight. To the average person a lot of japanese denim companies are using accents that are very similiar to levi's, however similarity doesn't mean they are infringing. trademark/patent/copyright laws are less than specifc and leave room for inovation, new uses, designs etc. No one disputes Levi's has the right or reason to sue, however there is no court decision that actually says they are infringing. I'd love to see one of these cases get decided, but the truth is it won't because levi's has way more money to outlast the smaller japanese firms in court, so the opportunity exists that a firm that wasn't technically infringing will have to eat a season's worth of goods.

[Guest jeffvyain]

that's the really unfortunate part. i think a very strong case could be made for these japanese companies, but we'll never get to see it, because levi's can push it off and wait it out until the companies fall flat on their faces and go bankrupt. and that's where the law falls short and the harsh world of business takes over

[fallen angels]

Improvisers dont look at change as an obstacle, they look at it as fuel. we know that the next great idea lies just on the other side of the change. we are constantly asking ourselves "what can i do to incite change?" Well?

im sitting at work drinking a starbucks and i saw that quote printed on my cup, so i thought about the current j-denim situation. personally, i am very excited to see what japanese denim labels are going to do next. this phase will be tough on the good folks at SE and BiG and i feel sorry that this will hurt your business the next few months, but after this whole thing blows over, i'm confident we will see some great things come out of this. there will be a recovery stage, a rebirth/renaissance, and we will see changes. one year from now, we might even look back at today and recognize this as something positive. this is not the end, i have faith in the future.

on a side note, i am glad i went a little denim-crazy in 2006 though cuz now my collection is vintage. although i was in SE last night and didnt pick up the Flatheads... that was a good test of faith/will-power

[Edge_Of_Denim]

Jeffvyain, well put. This in no way spells death for these denim manufacturers. Arcuate; a tab on the ass; figures on a label= death? C'mon, really. These are but cosmetic and will be altered quickly and with minimal pain. And, anyway, Samurai's label is fine. Same with Buzz Rickson. My SC '47 label features a mountain. Let them have their precious trademarks. Big fucking whoop. As someone said, the average consumer doesn't even have access to SC, SDA, and Samurai. Levis will win in court but will lose on the street, among serious denim consumers. Levis, it's design and quality, stupid! Levis is truely missing the forest for the fucking trees.

[swisloc]

but lets not assume that just because levi's is suing a company, that company is actually infringing a trademark, those issues are for a court to decide

i believe in kiya's post to start the thread it says specifically that this is not a cease and desist suit, but ALREADY a court order...

im sitting at work drinking a starbucks and i saw that quote printed on my cup, so i thought about the current j-denim situation. personally, i am very excited to see what japanese denim labels are going to do next. this phase will be tough on the good folks at SE and BiG and i feel sorry that this will hurt your business the next few months, but after this whole thing blows over, i'm confident we will see some great things come out of this. there will be a recovery stage, a rebirth/renaissance, and we will see changes. one year from now, we might even look back at today and recognize this as something positive. this is not the end, i have faith in the future.

I feel this is absolutely true. this CAN be a positive step forward for these companies, and from a STARBUCKS cup no-less!!! bottom line, Levis HAD to do this, any company would, and they are protecting themselves, now it's up to these companies to come up with something great in reaction.

[Geowu]

Unfortunately, probably their biggest mistake (besides "copying" the trademarks in the first place) was trying to make their product more available to the american consumer.

I think they actually didn't try to sell outside of Japan.

it's our fault (actually, Levis fault)

I see Levi's arcuates everywhere in many brands in Brazil, and they not even try to disguise them as the Japanese repros do... what about that? I guess the trademark is not very valid

[Tarmac]

You know what, as a consumer, I'm cool with change. Unless, by the nature of the conspicuous timing, this causes some makers or retailers to fold completely like Neil said. That is the real tragedy here.

[mrip]

This fucking sucks, now have to buy 2 pairs of jeans now, instead of waiting untill after I broke in my Samurais. That puts me about 600 bux in the hole for this month. Thanks Levis.