Levi's takes on Japanese Denim Resellers and Manufacturers

[sneakeraddict]

Guys, relax. At the end of the day, this won't really effect any of us.

a) The people who buy Levis 30$ 501 jeans will continue to buy them.

Japanese denim addicts will continue to buy japanese denim brands, regardless of the back logos (as long as they not too zany, which I think the brands already know about us). 99% of us are in it for the denim characteristics, not the logos.

If Levis think we are all of a sudden gonna stop buying Sugar Cane, Samurai etc and all of a sudden buy LVC selvedge jeans only, they have made a grave mistake.

But as AirFro says, Levis is by no means averse to making grave mistakes. FFS they shut down their own heritage factory, and one might argue:

*if Levis had kept consistently high quality over the last few decades, there might not BE any Japanese repro brands*

After all I believe, Evisu, Denime etc only ever reprod Levis because the quality of modern 501s had become so disastrous, there was a clear gap in the market for someone to 'reintroduce' jeans from the good old days, when Levis still thought QUALITY was the main issue, and not factories in China, Colombia, overly expensive marketing campaigns to advertise what are really dire products at the moment. (design and quality)

[Geowu]

maybe Levi's should lose those trademarks, since they're so old and of a currently unusual type.

the Japanese companies want to reproduce the aspect of the early jeans, not be mistaken for Levis and profit on it. They don't copy them blatantly. They always take the time to modify the details so that they're not actually identical to Levis, just reproduce the same general feeling of the early jeans.

would they want to be mistaken for Levis? I don't think so. Levis is inferior and takes a whole different approach to consumer respect, quality and profit. To mistake or to not mistake a trademark makes a difference on trademark issues... see the iPhone thing.

[mike lowrey]

Guys, relax. At the end of the day, this won't really effect any of us.

you need to relax with these "statements" of yours.

the effect of this is not only the fact that "whoops, guess I can't buy that particular model of jeans now". think about how much stock these manufacturers can have. small stores will have to deal with having jeans that are suddenly illegal to sell. and did you forget that theres also two US stores included in the lawsuit? imagine how first of all the lawsuit could affect them, and also that they'll have to get rid of a large part of their stock. and these two are the most important players in japanese denim.

[Neilfuji]

Sorry but it will effect us, the way wholesale works and production, this could and will close down labels, because with out a cash flow, which stopping/slowing one seasons shipping with effect, they can not do business...

they are not huge companies with loads of money hidden away, most are run on short cash flows and with little or no area for mistakes, even it the product is to be scraped it still has to be paid for and wages need to be paid, factorys need to be paid, and most Japanese retails will demand a payment for short orders from the priducer of the denim.

trust me it's all out whne it come to production and without the seasons sales there will be no money coming in for these guys....read the posts...READ THE POSTS

look at the big picture, the timing of this and the way it's been done as these guy are getting ready to ship, there told NO.... and if the store are getting closed down too...think about it

it's not just levis sending out a little men to take the product out of the stores, it's stoping the production of it, to stop the cash flow of the companies making it to stop them making any more of it or anything else

and yes your point is made Levis are a bit shit now.....and it's there fault

Neil

[synthi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by synthi

One example is hand tools, particularly planes. Back in the 30's, the Levi's and Lee's of the woodworking plane world were Norris and Spiers. They were at the time astronomically expensive, maybe 3-4 month's salary for the average cabinetmaker. They were hand made with a unique and patented blade adjustment mechanism featuring cast steel infilled with rosewood. Fast forward to the present day and most hand planes are cheap machine made tools with poor tolerances; they require a lot of fettling to work acceptably. And so, much like the Japanese denim manufacturers, there are a few individuals in the UK and the USA who pay homage to the Norris and Spiers designs of yesteryear and recreate planes using those old patterns featuring improved versions of the same patented Norris adjuster mechanism. Perhaps if the Norris company were not defunct, they too would be busy suing.

I'm not sure this is an apt comparison because levis in the 1930's was work wear, not some kind of exhalted premium thing. Mostly they were worn when you needed to do dirty work and so they couldn't have been terribly expensive, certainly not on par with what we pay now...

You've missed the point. It wasn't a mirror image example, it was simply illustrating that hand tools such as bench planes were once made to exacting high standards, then the quality nose dived due to economies of scale, industrialisation, mass production etc. and that led to a cottage industry catering for a niche who demanded quality levels of the past with these 'romantic repros' staying true to the original product whilst adding their own unique twists and improvements. I trust you'll now see the parallel I was alluding to.

[tweeds]

19 pages took a long time to read! whew.

all the best to blue in green and self edge, for what it's worth...they stuck their necks out to bring unknown denim into the states and now they're sucking the shit up, so major props and i hope it all works out.

i'm sure the japanese denim we all love will survive...jeans are much more than just a superficial tag and arcuate, there's definitely some positivity there. it's just another stage in the heritage of a tradition.

at the same time, the actions of levi's leave much to be desired. i know they're right (legally, ethically, whatever-else-ly) but it doesn't feel right.

[airfrogusmc]

maybe Levi's should lose those trademarks, since they're so old and of a currently unusual type.

the Japanese companies want to reproduce the aspect of the early jeans, not be mistaken for Levis and profit on it. They don't copy them blatantly. They always take the time to modify the details so that they're not actually identical to Levis, just reproduce the same general feeling of the early jeans.

would they want to be mistaken for Levis? I don't think so. Levis is inferior and takes a whole different approach to consumer respect, quality and profit. To mistake or to not mistake a trademark makes a difference on trademark issues... see the iPhone thing.

Again just make jeans that don't infringe on trade mark. It doesn't matter if someone is making X better than y. If y has the trade mark then X has to make products that don't infringe on that trade mark, Its that simple. Don't be surprised of pissed when y legally protects what is theirs to protect.

[poly800rock]

My thoughts about about how this will effect Brits on Superfuture.

I don't think anyone in Great Britain need worry about this too much.

We will still be able to use proxy services for Samurai redtab etc without worry IMHO.

My impression of the American legal system is that they are overly officious and love to sue each other too much. US customs will of course comply, British customs invariably won't (IMO).

Quite simply, they probably won't be arsed. Can you honestly see Parcel Force etc opening every parcel from Japan....??? (And caring if they find one with a red tab?)

Er, no.

Bear in mind that US Customs will be told to see this as a "patriotic" issue with Levis being an iconic American product.. "Japan is ripping us off guys - lets sue their ass and dont let that shit into America!!!!"

Here is how the same situation will work here:

British customs & excise upon finding a red-tab (presuming they even know about the 'ban' )

"Aren't we meant to destroy or block these or something?

Fuck it... can't be arsed, and its only gonna result in more paperwork for me, plus, I go on my lunch in a few minutes anyway... Just deliver the things as normal and pretend we never noticed it."

There's no way on God's green earth British Customs & Excise/Parcel Force are going to enforce this. (Bear in mind this is the same parcel force, who, whenever they deliver something to me with a customs charge, advise me how I can avoid it through technically illegal practices next time.

american customs is more of a joke than british, when's the last time you ever had to pay tax or duty or anything from abroad as an american? mark the gift $1000 i don't give a shit

[sneakeraddict]

well that certainly is a shame, that they should act in a meanspirited way, which if what you say, has the intention to completely ruin these artisan businesses rather than just admonish them.

I believe that Toyo Corp (Sugar Cane) and Toyota (?- cant remember the name) (Denime's owner) and a few others, are actually all part of huge Japanese symbiotic parent companies which have other interests in finance and motoring etc too, which should hopefully finance them through this period of adjustment.

As for the likes of Pure Blue and the smaller 'backyard' operations that use the tab artifice, with NO parent backing, that's a terrible shame.

[sneakeraddict]

american customs is more of a joke than british, when's the last time you ever had to pay tax or duty or anything from abroad as an american? mark the gift $1000 i don't give a shit

Ok but I have read several times on here that Japan red tabs have been destroyed / ripped off when entering America, after being inspected by some dick-wipe customs guy.

[synthi]

Business is business and since most PLC companies like Levi's are run by accountants rather than the designers, it's remiss to think that there is any kind of deep and meaningful thought involved on Levi's part. So long as Levi's make $£$ they don't care how and whether it's at the expense of competition.

Fur sure the Japanese manufacturers are aligned on the right side of the FLOM mentality but if anyone thinks Levi's should show some love over money you're nuts.

[poly800rock]

Ok but I have read several times on here that Japan red tabs have been destroyed / ripped off when entering America, after being inspected by some dick-wipe customs guy.

i've read it once on this forum. i posted a link in the other forum. or just do a search...it almost NEVER happens

[Geowu]

From Wikipedia:

Trademark law is designed to fulfill the public policy objective of consumer protection, by preventing the public from being misled as to the origin or quality of a product or service. By identifying the commercial source of products and services, trademarks facilitate identification of products and services which meet the expectations of consumers as to quality and other characteristics.

Trademarks may also serve as an incentive for manufacturers, providers or suppliers to consistently provide quality products or services in order to maintain their business reputation. Furthermore, if a trademark owner does not maintain quality control and adequate supervision in relation to the manufacture and provision of products or services supplied by a licensee, such “naked licensing” will eventually adversely impact on the owner’s rights in the trademark.

I never studied law, but I feel this move by Levis is just wrong in its core. Should the law not be allowed some flexibility, taking the particular situation into account? I don't think the execution of what Levis asks is lawful.

[Double D]

I never studied law, but I feel this move by Levis is just wrong in its core. Should the law not be allowed some flexibility, taking the particular situation into account? I don't think the execution of what Levis asks is lawful.

In a battle with equal resources and lawyers, Levis could expect to lose. Unfortunately from the sounds of it this probably won't even make it to court because of the relative lack of resources on the part of the Japanese companies. It's more in their interest to capitulate and alter their designs than to fight a lengthy battle, during which they won't even be able to sell their goods. And it's hardly the end of the world... we're just going to see the brands 'mature' in the way Evisu did and develop their own unique image.

[PG2G]

Neilfuji, for product that they have produced and not shipped, wouldn't it be possible for them to just cut the tap, rip the seams, and replace the leather patch for a relatively small price? I mean, all that manual labor is better than having to get rid of an entire season's stock.

[Roland]

RIP

Levis - If you're reading this, stop making jeans that blow (although i hear your new japan stuff is decent).

[PG2G]

Its okay, more Eternal less Levis (when it comes to patches)

[denimdestroyedmylife]

^ ROLAND, don't give LEVIs more ammo. let's not point out who else may be infringing.

funny that LEVIS tries to protect the integrity of their trademark and sully their reputation (to the people that matter) in the process

[lek]

Levi's is right to protect their branding, it's just about the only things they have left.

imo, it's jeans are either/both shits in terms of quality, or/and terribly over-priced (like here in my boring little island) .....

My heart is with the Japanese ......

[jubei]

Not too much more to add... I think that there have been some well-thought out responses that I agree with here.

I'm not surprised that Levi's is coming after these companies, nor do I argue their right to bring them to court. However, like others here, I agree that there wouldn't be a market for these other companies if Levi's had been thinking creatively enough to market denim towards denimphiles.

Instead of creating the Capital E property, they shold have just expanded their LVC collection with a baseline of deadstock cuts (like the Japanese LVC branch has done) and some seasonal items, be it lowrise versions of the vintage cuts or washed and distressed models. I sincerely hope that this is more a demonstration of power than an actual "witchhunt" of our beloved denim artisans in Japan.

Also, I put Neilfuji's million dollar quote in my sig.

[Klaas]

At first I reacted a bit emotional, but Levi's has all the rights to do so.

I think it eventually will be just another big note in Japanese denim history, in a couple of months we all laugh about it while trying out some new SDA's....

[grapz]

Kiya, no 1 is picking up on ur store

[Blanc0]

Most of you art missing the point. First of all, this is nothing new, Levi's has been sending cease and desist letters since they re-established their trademark in the 40's. SEARS of all companies were throwing arcuates on their jeans in the 30's to try and persuade their customers into buying a pair of "levis".

If you really want to place some blame, put it on publications like the San Francisco Chronicle, for writing a story on Self Edge and their stock. this, more than likely, got some of the heads in the "plaza" going, and now, since all of these Japanese denim companies, who ablsolutely KNEW already about their infringements, have started shipping product to the US, where trademark laws are more stringent, are succeptible to seizure. AND, since the product is already sold (bought by accounts), it is unfortunately the accounts that will see the backlash the most from this. to bring it kind of "down to earth", in the eyes of Levi's, these stores are selling bootleg product (quality has absolutely NOTHING to do with this case, Levi's could give a fuck what the quality is on a pair of jeans that is ripping off their brand assets.

we can love these companies all we want, but the point is this: they have blatently stolen trademarked property, whether in reverence or not. Face it, they ARE in the wrong in the eyes of the law, NO CONTEST. There is no way that Levi's can be contested legally, they have been doing this for years, they are arguably the most recognizable intellectual iconic property in a garment ever.

[PG2G]

Kiya, no 1 is picking up on ur store

Maybe they open at 8 (or 9, or 10)

[grapz]

Maybe they open at 8 (or 9, or 10)

thats pacific time right

[PG2G]

thats pacific time right

yeah, PST. Its 7:53 now

[PG2G]

Blanc0, kiya's post said "This lawsuit has been many months in the works, maybe even before any of the aforementioned stores opened" so I don't think any week old articles had any influence.

[drgitlin]

Kiya, no 1 is picking up on ur store

Perhaps because it's not even 8 am in San Fran??\

I wonder how this ruling will affect one's ability to wear japanese repros in France. For those that don't know, the French are superstrict about copyright and trademark infringement, and I know that in the Cote D'Azur, they sometimes have sweeps where they'll get on a coach and confiscate any dodgy LV or Fendi bags, fake watches etc, for burning. It would suck to have a gendarme tell you to take your jeans off because they had a fire going...

[tweeds]

Most of you art missing the point. First of all, this is nothing new, Levi's has been sending cease and desist letters since they re-established their trademark in the 40's. SEARS of all companies were throwing arcuates on their jeans in the 30's to try and persuade their customers into buying a pair of "levis".

If you really want to place some blame, put it on publications like the San Francisco Chronicle, for writing a story on Self Edge and their stock. this, more than likely, got some of the heads in the "plaza" going, and now, since all of these Japanese denim companies, who ablsolutely KNEW already about their infringements, have started shipping product to the US, where trademark laws are more stringent, are succeptible to seizure. AND, since the product is already sold (bought by accounts), it is unfortunately the accounts that will see the backlash the most from this. to bring it kind of "down to earth", in the eyes of Levi's, these stores are selling bootleg product (quality has absolutely NOTHING to do with this case, Levi's could give a fuck what the quality is on a pair of jeans that is ripping off their brand assets.

we can love these companies all we want, but the point is this: they have blatently stolen trademarked property, whether in reverence or not. Face it, they ARE in the wrong in the eyes of the law, NO CONTEST. There is no way that Levi's can be contested legally, they have been doing this for years, they are arguably the most recognizable intellectual iconic property in a garment ever.

Blanc0 - fair enough but just because it is legally right doesn't mean we have to like it...i agree that levi's is far and away in the clear over this issue, and fundamentally it's a question of intellectual property, but give a little bit of room for sentiment in this thread because i'm sure all the responses are more sentiment than anything else.

[Blanc0]

PG2G, I understand this (I am actually a senior designer AT Levi's), but articles like these contribute to the awareness, as the buzz around Japanese denim has been raised in the US, the last couple of years (conservatively).

Again, Levi's has been doing this their thing for over 150 years, don't you think they've been through this before?