Levi's takes on Japanese Denim Resellers and Manufacturers

[PG2G]

These Japanese brands aren't taking loads of business away from Levis. These Japanese brands aren't even readily available to really do any harm against Levis.

Who's to say they won't be in a matter of years though? Look how far things have come in 2006.

How many of us were wearing Japanese denim over a year ago? How many stores were there ins the US that sold Japanese denim a year ago? What is now making the front page of the Style section in San Francisco's newspaper?

[ianpalermo]

I remember I was in Philly like two days after Allen Iverson was arrested in 2002. There we so many people with "Free Allen Iverson" T-shirts. Someone needs to make Superfuture Limited Edition "Free The SDA Pigboys" shirts

[drgitlin]

they would lose in court, but it would take a monumental opponent to be match them in terms of the cash you need to fight a protracted, multi-year copyright infraction lawsuit, somebody like diesel maybe (though that would never happen because of they have no interest in doing red tabs)..

Oh, Levis sued Diesel over their original back pocket eagle too, back in the mid 1990s. Levis won and Diesel had to change the stitching on all their styles. Levis might make shitty jeans to sell in Wal*Mart, but they've got good lawyers

[artificialsky]

this thread is so full of bad agruments and fallacies its painful. my prefrences: i dont like arcuates. i see this a time for change, for jeans to evolve and open new bridges of creativity. i like the red tabs saying samurai, geisha, ect. i'd miss those little details. and i dont care for patches pulling things appart, makes me think of goatse. i am biased towards the imperial/nudie style, with original back pocket designs (as far as i know), id like to see more of that; its just what im into. i feel the consumers are being overdramatic because they will not be able to buy a repos as they know it. do you buy jeans for fit and quality or for details. you will be able to buy the same jeans but without the levis details, would you still be happy in the end? thanks for enduring my bad grammar, spelling and jumbled thoughts.

how is it that dude starts his post off with "this thread is full of bad arguments and fallacies" then instead of pointing out these apparent fallacies he just rambles on and on with a bunch of opinion?

[stuntastic]

What would that conversation have gone like?

LEVI'S: Hey, cane and sammy, stop reproducing our jeans.

REPRO COMPANIES: Nah, we're cool, thanks.

LEVI'S: Then, give us a cut of the profits.

REPRO: Nope, no can do.

LEVI'S: Well, youre taking our idea, and we'd like you to stop.

REPRO: You know, you're right. We will willfully cease production of our well-selling denim brands because you asked nicely, and completely restructure our business model and start from the ground up. Thanks for being courteous, Levi's.

Even though the Japanese denim market wasnt too big in the states 20 years ago, why not have gone after those denim companies, then?

Levis considering Japanese repro denim a threat?

With your example of "Joe Schmoe..." How badly is the Japanese denim market effecting Levis sales? Most likely, barely even a scratch.

Levis is marketed to the general public. "Joe Schmoe" wouldnt build up a bike or work on a car with Flat Heads or Sugarcanes on. Why? Because the average American doesnt buy Japanese denim. So whats to worry about?

Yes, trademarks. Understandable.

But with your conversation example above, I have a feeling that Levis hasnt gone to each and every Japanese company tried to work something out.

Because, with Levis being a business, they really could care less about being nice and working something out.

Just use the money they have laying around and toss out a few lawsuits, and sit back.

[headtowall]

This really makes me wish I'd stocked up on D'Artisans, Samurais, and Canes. It's almost like I have an incentive not to thrash my PBJs too hard, because I won't be able to get another pair with the blue tab. This is bogus!

[poly800rock]

I remember I was in Philly like two days after Allen Iverson was arrested in 2002. There we so many people with "Free Allen Iverson" T-shirts. Someone needs to make Superfuture Limited Edition "Free The SDA Pigboys" shirts

wasn't it iverson's uncle?

[jwied82]

I remember I was in Philly like two days after Allen Iverson was arrested in 2002. There we so many people with "Free Allen Iverson" T-shirts. Someone needs to make Superfuture Limited Edition "Free The SDA Pigboys" shirts

I wonder what kind of denim AI wears??

[BTT]

wasn't it iverson's uncle?

he's talking about when Iverson was charged for terrorists attack thing, he had 13 counts for kidnapping, attemptive murder etc. He thought his wife was cheating on him or something and pulled a gun to her cousin, and asked where she was.

[Astérix]

Who's to say they won't be in a matter of years though? Look how far things have come in 2006.

How many of us were wearing Japanese denim over a year ago? How many stores were there ins the US that sold Japanese denim a year ago? What is now making the front page of the Style section in San Francisco's newspaper?

How many people are actually willing to pay $200+ for a pair of jeans that look virtually the same as a pair Levis, in their eyes?

[PG2G]

How many people are actually willing to pay $200+ for a pair of jeans that look virtually the same as a pair Levis, in their eyes?

Those people could be buying a $200 pair of Levi's instead.

A lot of the more popular Japanese jeans could be considered direct competition for their LVC 47s and other releases. Why should they allow people to compete with them using their own trademarks?

[ianpalermo]

wasn't it iverson's uncle?

via wikipedia:

2002

Iverson allegedly threw his wife Tawanna out of the mansion during a fight. The following night, an enraged Iverson later went looking for his wife at his cousin's apartment. His cousin wouldn't let him in (Iverson was the one who paid the rent for the house). According to the police report, Iverson repeatedly threatened to kill his cousin Charles Jones and Jones's roommate while showing them a semi-automatic gun. Iverson was arrested and charged with 14 different counts. All charges were ultimately dropped after conflicting testimonies from witnesses.

ps- I didn't mean to derail the thread.

[Corbin Law]

a fuck load of people

theres a big difference between an lvc 1947 and the eternal 811

both slim and sort of related in many ways

but verrryyy different jeans.

[truestorytravis]

brozek, you must have been catching the busy signal while i was on the line. i'll be watching for those samurai arcs! if you see me in my bks make sure to say hello

[sidneylo]

According to the police report, Iverson repeatedly threatened to kill his cousin.

Damn. Iverson family--tough love.

[Astérix]

Come on now...how many Levis customers (not just LVC) are willing to spend that much on a pair of jeans?

[Icarus]

My beef lies with American copyright law. I'm incredulous that something as vague as arcutate design or tabs (of any color on the back of a pair of pants) could be held as intellectual property (a BS term for arcutate or a pocket tab in this case and a phrase that's no better than a spin term). That something so vague could be defined by the money of its owner (levis seems to be able to say what is and what isn't arcutate in this case) and not by any reasonable, clear cut guidelines (there doesn't seem to be any) is disturbing.

Just a few questions. Levis is a Multinational, right? Under what parameters is arcutate defined in its registration?

I hope business continues smoothly for both Self Edge and BiG, wish I could get out to San Francisco!

[PG2G]

Come on now...how many Levis customers (not just LVC) are willing to spend that much on a pair of jeans?

I don't really think that matters. By that logic, LVC shouldn't exist because only a small percentage of Levi's customers would spend that much. Fact is, stuff like Sugarcane 1947s is using Levi's own product to take customers who Levi's believes should be their own. I'm not arguing that levi's is right or wrong, but I understand

[cultpop 0217]

I don't mean to pick on your post specifically, cultpop, but I can't believe how shortsighted some of you guys on superfuture are. How is LEVI'S being the dick here? LEVI'S is in the wrong for suing other companies from reproducing their model of jeans? The other companies didn't need a minute of warning, since they've been reproducing someone else's cut for years. It's not like they didn't know it, and it's not like Levi's owes something to these other companies who, as they see it, have been taking their market share.

Whether or not these repro companies make better jeans than Levi's is irrelevant. Levi's has worked for over a century to become the iconic name in denim, and as stylish or cool or even flattering as it may be for other companies to repro the Levi's jeans, the bottom line is that they are infringing too closely on Levi's intellectual property, right down to the signature details that make up a pair of Levi's.

And lest we all forget, that at the end of the day, Levi's is a business, and while it probably cares about preserving denim and history and tradition, it's more concerned with the bottom line, and that is making money, and it's ignorant for anybody to fault Levi's for doing all that is in their power to ensure that they keep their business running strong.

first of all levi's is not suing anyone over cut or fit. its over a few details. specifically the red tab, the arcuate, and the two horse tab. read the whole thread next time. btw most of these companies are not copying these details exactly but rather referencing them in some pretty cool and clever ways something that is done all the time in fashion and art.

secondly, i believe that levi's should actually be a little more forgiving with these companies that are respecting and honoring levi's place in denim history and are reproducing an article of clothing that has historical and cultural significance. historical and cultural significance that levi's ignored until others showed that there is a market and a desire to honor that history.

REPRO: You know, you're right. We will willfully cease production of our well-selling denim brands because you asked nicely, and completely restructure our business model and start from the ground up. Thanks for being courteous, Levi's.

yeah i think that most (if not all) of these companies, faced with eventual and inevitable legal action, would have complied willingly. levis could have insisted on the stoppage of the infringements and given a reasonable timeline so that retailers (who, by the way, are not making gobs of money, but rather, selling products that they clearly care about and filling a niche that no one else has filled) would not be so drastically affected.

instead of suing small retailers they could have approached the companies and retailers and come to some kind of agreement. i believe that all parties would have complied willingly in the face of certain destruction.

by the way, none of these companies are going to have to "restructure" or "start from the ground up". the only infringment involves the above mentioned 3 details and im sure the companies in question will have no problem offering compliant models for the markets outside of japan which are to be affected.

the cut, denim, and other details (hidden rivets, thread color etc..) are outside of levis reach.

you really should know all the facts, as well as the context of said facts, before you make an argument that you really are unprepared to make.

Even though the Japanese denim market wasnt too big in the states 20 years ago, why not have gone after those denim companies, then?

Levis considering Japanese repro denim a threat?

With your example of "Joe Schmoe..." How badly is the Japanese denim market effecting Levis sales? Most likely, barely even a scratch.

Levis is marketed to the general public. "Joe Schmoe" wouldnt build up a bike or work on a car with Flat Heads or Sugarcanes on. Why? Because the average American doesnt buy Japanese denim. So whats to worry about?

Yes, trademarks. Understandable.

But with your conversation example above, I have a feeling that Levis hasnt gone to each and every Japanese company tried to work something out.

Because, with Levis being a business, they really could care less about being nice and working something out.

Just use the money they have laying around and toss out a few lawsuits, and sit back.

exactly. i wonder how the folks at levis vintage clothing feel about the way the higher ups at levi's are handling this situation.

i'm sure there was a better way for evil's to deal with this.

[Brienneoftarth]

Its bullshit. YOu never see supreme or bape getting sued for referencing major products in their t-shirts and shit.

[thelion1856]

FUCK LEVIS! i will burn my one and only pair of levis i have and post it on youtube. never fucking with these assholes ever again. NEVER!!!!!!!!

[weirdnjfan1]

check BIG!!!!

Alright, I checked the site and it looks like Samurai, Oni, PBJ, SDA, and John Bull are all ok. The only one that isn't up is Sugarcane, I don't know what's up with that, but I'm gonna send them a message in a few minutes and see what's up.

[talk]

ok well i guess i cant make a new thread about self edge so... what exactly is left theere? are flatheads still good?

[toufu]

FUCK LEVIS! i will burn my one and only pair of levis i have and post it on youtube. never fucking with these assholes ever again. NEVER!!!!!!!!

lol direct your hate towards the "man" not the product!!

[erbs]

I just ordered a pair of Flatheads from Self Edge. Stick it to the man!

[vivaloschet]

What about History Preservation Associates? They have been selling Japanese Levi's counterfeits for much longer than BIG and Selfedge combined and they claim to be Sugarcane's North American Distributor. Where are they in all this?

[cultpop 0217]

What about History Preservation Associates? They have been selling Japanese Levi's counterfeits for much longer than BIG and Selfedge combined and they claim to be Sugarcane's North American Distributor. Where are they in all this?

history pres. and sugarcane already complied a few months back.

[Stylen]

wow that really sucks. Do you think it will eventually band off into other designers, like Andes stuff for some unknown reasons or is this going to be strictly just a Levi vs Japan thing?

[toufu]

wow that really sucks. Do you think it will eventually band off into other designers, like Andes stuff for some unknown reasons or is this going to be strictly just a Levi vs Japan thing?

its going to be a levis vs whoever uses any of levis trademarks

they can't touch ande cuzz he didnt do anything wrong -__-

[drapygo]

Shit... ande should make superfuture denim!