super future theory vs Ryu's washing techniques

[sneakeraddict]

Quote:

Quote: I would assume that the two are molecularly identical (or are they not entirely?) and should produce identical results.

--- Original message by spiveyt2 on May 8, 2006 03:06 PM

I reckon that's like saying Aspartame (Or any other artificial sweetener) and Sucrose (Natural Sugar) are the same (They're not)

I don't know the structure of Indigo dye (Synth and Natural) though.

Edited by Tabris on May 8, 2006 at 03:12 PM

--- Original message by Tabris on May 8, 2006 03:12 PM

I think that has pretty much summed up the answer.

Im not sure if natural neccessarily fades any faster, but it certainly fades more progressively and 'evolves' if that makes sense.

Pure indigo seems to look tired after a few washes.

[spiveyt2]

Quote:

Quote: I would assume that the two are molecularly identical (or are they not entirely?) and should produce identical results.

--- Original message by spiveyt2 on May 8, 2006 03:06 PM

I reckon that's like saying Aspartame (Or any other artificial sweetener) and Sucrose (Natural Sugar) are the same (They're not)

I don't know the structure of Indigo dye (Synth and Natural) though.

Edited by Tabris on May 8, 2006 at 03:12 PM

--- Original message by Tabris on May 8, 2006 03:12 PM

It is similar to the Aspartame/Sucrose analogy but not identical. Aspartame is modified to hit the taste buds in a similar way to sugar and produce a similar result but has an important group added on to make it have no caloric value. Synthetic indigo would not need to have that modified chemical structure. Manufacturers of synthetic indigo would want it to be identical to have the same effect, much like ibuprofen generic producers want their product to be the same as Advil.

[Geowu]

Natural and synthetic: it's been discussed here already many times. Natural is not the same as synthetic: natural has impurities from the indigo plants while synthetic is 100% pure (if the makers use it that way).

Natural has a different color according to the kind of indigo plants used and the traditional dyeing methods: i.e. like Sugarcanes Edo Ai, Okinawa, Hawaii, 45rpm Jomons, Nudie RR Veggie, all are different. The color can go far from the pure indigo. Also, because it is not pure, it doesn't fade as fast and with as much contrast as the synthetic. So it takes longer to fade, it may develop different hues, and it fades in a blurry way.

Synthetic, when used pure, has that royal blue color which fades like most jeans and with lots of contrast. However most brands mixture it with other ingredients to make it cheaper or just different, or add things like resin coating, etc.

The reason why Japanese jeans have a deeper color is the production. In Japan they make the most expensive traditional jeans (considering just raw denim) production, they employ the highest quality, while everywhere else in the world they cut down on quality to make their denim inferior and cheaper and bigger profits.

The deeper color comes from multiple dips in indigo, can be more than 24, as opposed to 6 dips or less of most common denim. They wait some time between each dip, etc. I don't know all the technical details but it's just a better production, they do what other countries would consider superfluous and don't do because of profit.

[Serge d Nimes]

That just about sums it up!

This thought can be extended when you think about the history of Levis and their subsequent loss of quality beginning with the loss of hidden rivets in 1965 and to the loss of the black bartack and selvage in 1982. Somewhere around the early 70's the denim lost a lot of the color retention of the earlier jeans.

Carpe Denim! (not the jean brand silly!)

[minya]

Serge, do you have any pics of faded Warehouse jeans?

[spiveyt2]

Thank you for your very informative posts. I do have a couple more questions, though. 1) So, with the more extensive dyeing process, I assume that it would take longer to break in Japanese denim and would require more wear to show contrast due to the indigo being more tenacious. I guess what I am getting at is that for there to be high contrast, there has to be a simultaneous leakage of indigo in stressed areas and retention of indigo in unstressed areas. These seem to be contradictory elements. How can denim simultaneously leak indiog quickly and retain it well? I apologize if I am repeating myself or beating a dead horse (though, I know by reading lots of posts that none of you are strangers to answering old or redundant questions). 2) Is there a point of diminishing returns for dipping fabric in indigo? In other words, how much different is the color from dip 25 to dip 26 in your high dip example? I am sure there is a finite amount of indigo that fabric can absorb before it stops taking in dye. I just wonder if a lot of companies don't do as many dippings not just because of time and cost but because there is little improvement. Take vodka for example, it is the trend these days to say that you distill the product an absurd amount of time when it rarely makes much difference after, say, the seventh distillation. Eventually, there just aren't enough impurities to remove for it to make a detectable difference. Thank you for your patience for a curious n00b.

[minya]

Japanese jeans don't fade quickly at all. Quite the opposite.

[spitzbrg]

Quote:

Serge, do you have any pics of faded Warehouse jeans?

--- Original message by minya on May 8, 2006 04:34 PM

http://item.rakuten.co.jp/bears/sample-warehouse-1001/

Edited by spitzbrg on May 8, 2006 at 06:39 PM

[backinthetrees]

Quote:

Japanese jeans don't fade quickly at all. Quite the opposite.

--- Original message by minya on May 8, 2006 06:03 PM

been wearing these for more than half a year.. not very regularly, maybe 2-3 times a week..

i have hardly lost any indigo..

its true, japanese jeans lose their color ALOT less.

Edited by backinthetrees on May 9, 2006 at 04:25 AM

[Paul T]

Talking about japanese jeans doesn't narrow things down too much. Japan produces a huge proportion of the selvage denim around, including for Lee and Levi's. I'd be interested to know where Sugarcane's denim comes from. Anyone know?

Edit: most Japanese denim is NOT made from natural indigo, and my guess would be that Sugarcanes use synthetic indigo.

I was told by one guy who specifies denim for reissues that much of the difference between natural and synthetic indigo comes from other factors, including the use of sulphur in the dyeing process, and the fact that synthetic indigo tends by its nature to be more concentrated. I have had some good natural indigo jeans, with unbleached cotton, which give a great look, but it is not the high-contrast look that most people here cite as a nice fade, as you'll usually see on Sugarcanes.

Edited by Paul T on May 9, 2006 at 09:33 AM

[horriblyjollyjinx]

My SD's fade a lot faster than all other raw jeans from Nudie and the likes. I would say the same goes for the denim of other similar Japanese brands in general, but I could be wrong.

Also, the basis for this discussion(how often to wash) is wrong since the culprit is how physically worn, abraded and faded, the jeans are, not for how long time you have worn them, therefore you cannot really discuss how often the jeans should be washed.

Instead you should learn to know when to wash by looking at your jeans.

Six months, every day is a generally good guideline though, for someone who does little else than walk around in their jeans, but it of course depends on many factors.

våran panel tycker att man ska koka pastan i två år

[swyche]

Quote:

You're right, Serge is a case where his jeans turn out really well and he only washes very infrequently. Another such example is TragicBliss.

I just get a little pang when I see so much worship and this "turning superfuture upside down" ideology, when in reality a lot of us have been saying "they're just jeans" for awhile.

Ryu, I hope you weren't offended by my comments earlier. I, as with everyone here, appreciates your contribution and I love your website. My comments were directed at those who seem to disregard all of the amazing information we've been lucky enough to receive from ringring, because they interpret what you say as being completely the opposite of this. In practice and thinking, I do not think you and I are different at all. I believe the same way - treat your jeans however you want to and they will look great.

Japanese jeans are awesome as far as fabric goes, but fit is a bit of a tough subject. For me, I can't wear the vintage-style jeans unless they're hug-your-ass-tight, because I don't like the anti-fit look. The best alternative, in the same realm of quality, are the American brands Prps, 5EP and Rag&Bone - all of which fade a bit slower, because of treatment with resin and such. I nearly flipped when I flatted out the thigh of my RB11s today and realized that there was ever so slight whiskering. The color (a grey/blue) is truly a sight to behold.

Edited by wild_whiskey on May 8, 2006 at 01:29 PM

--- Original message by wild_whiskey on May 8, 2006 01:26 PM

wild_whiskey: I was merely quoting someone else with the 'turning superfuture upside down'. You can find his post on the first page of the 'guy with crazy sugarcanes' thread.

The problem with these theories is that they need photos to back them up for them to be convincing. To achieve a certain effect, one must know the causes and it is certainly true when people say 'Wash it however u want, wear it however u want' etc, yes, indeed, they will look great with character later, but they may not achieve the look they initially wanted. With the influx of more and more denim noobs, this knowledge is necessary. The grandpas of superfutre know all this because of experience and continous reading of updates and discussion, while it is very hard for someone new to suddenly amass so much denim knowledge- one can't be expected to sift through all the posts on a topic on a search hit in one day.

'directed at those who seem to disregard all of the amazing information we've been lucky enough to receive ' - wild_whiskey

curiosity into others techniques and the causes for certain denim fades is not a sin. it isthe opposite of disregard, an overload of information, that brings up questions like these. so i agree with cheapmuthafkr, it takes pictures for solid reassurance. I thank all you denim gurus out there willing to spend a few minutes to reconfirm certain faqs, and taking the time to address questions that may or may not have been asked before.

Edited by swyche on May 9, 2006 at 07:33 AM

[denimdestroyedmylife]

i just got me mind blown!

for free

Using chain stitch, your train of jeans is fading wind.

[wild_whiskey]

Quote:

My SD's fade a lot faster than all other raw jeans from Nudie and the likes. I would say the same goes for the denim of other similar Japanese brands in general, but I could be wrong.

Also, the basis for this discussion(how often to wash) is wrong since the culprit is how physically worn, abraded and faded, the jeans are, not for how long time you have worn them, therefore you cannot really discuss how often the jeans should be washed.

Instead you should learn to know when to wash by looking at your jeans.

Six months, every day is a generally good guideline though, for someone who does little else than walk around in their jeans, but it of course depends on many factors.

--- Original message by horriblyjollyjinx on May 9, 2006 04:36 AM

My buddy's SD-105s are fading remarkably quick as well.

[YoungPunch]

Not really on topic, but I love how the superdenim forum discussions are focusing more on all of the technical details of denim production once again! Makes for great reading from all the denim experts.

[Serge d Nimes]

Another thing that has always interrested me is that indigo seemed to turn to shit just after the energy crisis and the environmental movement in the mid 70's. I wonder if the old way of producing indigo had to be changed for the sake of environmental protection. Or maybe, the formula was changed after the price of oil shot up. It would seem to make sense that production methods changed because the indigo in old Lee's and Levi's is so much better than anything produced these days.

Carpe Denim! (not the jean brand silly!)

[wild_whiskey]

Quote:

Another thing that has always interrested me is that indigo seemed to turn to shit just after the energy crisis and the environmental movement in the mid 70's. I wonder if the old way of producing indigo had to be changed for the sake of environmental protection. Or maybe, the formula was changed after the price of oil shot up. It would seem to make sense that production methods changed because the indigo in old Lee's and Levi's is so much better than anything produced these days.

--- Original message by Serge d Nimes on May 10, 2006 12:52 PM

Serge, I imagine that it might have something to do with adding sulfur to the dyes. Perhaps (and please dont quote me) in the 70s they started using sulfur, which allowed them to do less indigo dips, but still retain a dark color in the product? *shrug*

[Serge d Nimes]

Ha!

One of sulfur's properties is that it bleaches! Heck, it sits right next to chlorine on the periodic table!

Carpe Denim! (not the jean brand silly!)

[ranzchic]

Please don't kill me if resurrecting old thread is faux pas but alot of you are missing a very important point in Ryu's denim:

He bikes. Alot.

It's a very physical activity, especially on his lower body. Where jeans go. That in itself should be enough of an explanation, but I did learn alot about the other technical details. It was good reading and I thank all the contributors.

[will_i_am]

naw i'm kidding. plus you're right. i just want to become a superjunkie.

[poly800rock]

Ha!

One of sulfur's properties is that it bleaches! Heck, it sits right next to chlorine on the periodic table!

Carpe Denim! (not the jean brand silly!)

atoms that are in the same family have the same chemical properties, not periods

[ranzchic]

naw i'm kidding. plus you're right. i just want to become a superjunkie.

Hey now. At least I didnt start another thread:cool:

[404]

after reading all these posts, i realise that i should probably stop worrying so much about how to wear and when to wash my jeans, because i think part of the joy is not knowing how the fade will come out. there is no point in aiming to get ryu's contrasting or fading, because you will never get the same, you'll obviously get differentiations of it, are you then meant to be disappointed?

surely, the first man on this planet to get honeycombs on his jeans didn't aim to get them, and what a pleasant surprise it must have been for him (in reality, he probably didn't even care).

just my 2 cents...

[Guest jeffvyain]

i have a question for ryu and/or you other SF bikers. How do you not get oil from the chain on your jeans when you bike so much? I used to bike in jeans back before my dry denim days and I tore a couple pair getting them caught in the chain. I would hate to do that with my samurais.

[tweeds]

after reading all these posts, i realise that i should probably stop worrying so much about how to wear and when to wash my jeans, because i think part of the joy is not knowing how the fade will come out. there is no point in aiming to get ryu's contrasting or fading, because you will never get the same, you'll obviously get differentiations of it, are you then meant to be disappointed?

surely, the first man on this planet to get honeycombs on his jeans didn't aim to get them, and what a pleasant surprise it must have been for him (in reality, he probably didn't even care).

just my 2 cents...

404 you'll do well with that thought. like DDML says, just jeans.

[mizanation]

well, ddml got "just jeans" from ringring. speaking of, he's been kinda quiet lately (ringring, not ddml). probably busy.

[tweeds]

well, ddml got "just jeans" from ringring. speaking of, he's been kinda quiet lately (ringring, not ddml). probably busy.

DDML x ringring limited ed collab quote machine

[jooles]

i have a question for ryu and/or you other SF bikers. How do you not get oil from the chain on your jeans when you bike so much? I used to bike in jeans back before my dry denim days and I tore a couple pair getting them caught in the chain. I would hate to do that with my samurais.

You can:

a) buy one of those velcro straps in your local bike shop and wrap it tight just above your ankle

tuck them in your boots

c) wear jeans with really small leg openings

d) push on the pedal with your heel instead of the ball of your foot and assume a v. wide stance

Most people I know take option a) or c)

[minya]

you can also roll up your jeans mid-calf on your right leg

[prufrock]

i ride on my toes, like people with cycling shoes. ever since i started doing that i havent been getting oil on my jeans. its kinda hard, depending on your pedals, but it works great with my pedals and dunks.

on the subject of japanese denim as compared to apc/nudie:

japanese denim has a different texture to it, which give it that odd fading. the term would be slubby. APC and Nudie, i have some NS, Cures, and Slim Jims, the denim is very smooth. it may be the startch, but its not slubby at all. i havent worn my NS too often so maybe the denim will become slubby but i doubt it.

on the subject of washing, just wash when needed. i dont understand how people's jeans get smelly after a couple of months when all they do is sit around in them all day. i ride my bike almost everyday and after 2 months of heavy riding, they arent that smelly. the secret, maybe not secret, is to turn the jeans inside out and hang them each night before going to bed. the smell is managable then. if its still bad, usually not, spray some antimicrobal febreeze on your jeans. problem solved. good night and good luck.

-later days.

seriously, though, we need to get off our asses. i know half of you fuckers just read supertalk, like me, all fucking day. quit posting about jeans and do something with your lives. i took up cycling and im still here everyday. FUCK.