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swyche

super future theory vs Ryu's washing techniques

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I thought I might raise a separate thread for this.

As one poster noted, Ryu is turning superfuture upside down, with his jeans fading so beautifully, despite washing it every month.

I thought the whole point of NOT washing it was that the indigo doens't fade away, increasing the contrast after the first wash. Evidently, as displayed in Ryu's jeans, that is not the case. So what exactly are the benefits of not washing for so many months, when you can keep them clean AND get the fades the same way?

He also adds that after his washes and his jeans dry, they become more rigid for more honeycomb reconstructions. Isn't that an advantage to us wearing them til they soft, and needing to layer starch over and over again?

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I think that in his month, he probably puts his jeans thru a good amount more work than most of us do. Its kind of hard to compare by time periods alone.

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washing takes indigo out. between the washes, the jeans get faded.

so, if they've been faded, and are washed, the faded areas get whiter and the dark areas get bluer. otherwise, if they haven't been faded, they get bluer all around.

there's another element that comes into play: the dyeing of the jeans.

if a good dyeing was made, the jeans are washed and they stay dark. if they've been faded, the faded areas get whiter and the dark areas stay dark. then you have contrast.

if a poor dyeing was made, the jeans are washed and they lose lots of indigo. if they've been faded, the faded areas get white faster and the dark areas will be no longer dark; they get blue. if you wash them a couple of times, there's no contrast.

so, in effect, time doesn't matter. what matters is the amount of fade before each wash. this way, when you wash them, there's contrast if there's fade, and there's less indigo and no contrast, if there isn't a fade.

but, if the denim received a good dyeing, you can wash it more frequently than if it received a poor dyeing.

Ryu's jeans were subject to what would generally be considered an unusually intense wear. In addition to that, Ryu's jeans received a good dyeing. So, he washed them in a month and they've got contrast.

If the jeans fade slowly because of little wear, and if they received a poor dyeing, you should not wash them in a month and expect the same results as Ryu's jeans.

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true----the fundamental rule hasn't changed, don't wash until you can't stand the smell anymore.

Using chain stitch, your train of jeans is fading wind.

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someone actually asked Ryu about how he can wash every month in the thread about his Canes. He said that it is because japanese denim is vastly superior to european denim, so while you have to wait 6 months with nudies, that isnt the case for Canes or Samurais. i think thats what he said at least haha

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I would tend to believe it though (about the Japanese denim vs the European ones). My Sugarcanes started fading really fast, nice contrast within 2 months, without washing. My APCs and Nudies last year only started fading after 5 months each AND a wash AND I was doing more intense activities with those.

Even considering all the above theories, there is still something that I don 't get about his technique -- after washing, no matter how much you restarch or how much it naturally becomes stiff again, how does he get the SAME wrinkles back? For the creases to fade so well and so consistently, they MUST be the same creases that return after each wash...otherwise with each new wash, he'd have a new crease/fade that begins and old ones that don't complete fading. I'm very wary of washing or even using starch nowadays because I find that I can't keep my wrinkles consistent. :-(

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Heh, no. thats not what he said.

I like the enthusiasm, but we've had someone here all along who has been saying since day one that you don't have to wait 6 months + to wash your jeans. But because he doesn't host a Japanese website, he doesn't hold ultimate authority to you guys.

With all due respect to Ryu and all other denim enthusiasts, we have both Serge and Ringring here who post quite often to answer the same redundant questions, and has said countless times that it's perfectly fine to wash your jeans once a month or so and get great results. It comes down to preference and smell. There is no rule about when you should wash them - we've been saying this forever. All denim looks awesome over time, regardless of how often you wash it.

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Quote: For the creases to fade so well and so consistently, they MUST be the same creases that return after each wash...otherwise with each new wash, he'd have a new crease/fade that begins and old ones that don't complete fading. I'm very wary of washing or even using starch nowadays because I find that I can't keep my wrinkles consistent. :-(

The solution is not to agitate the jeans when they're being washed. A nice soak with a little detergent and very little agitation will help this quite a bit. Most creases come out in the spin cycle.

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Actually, Serge washes his jeans very infrequently, iirc (even less than once per six months) and I believe he suggests the first wash be in cold water without any detergent at all.

But.. yeah, I agree, the real answer is "do it how you want to do it." If you want to wait six months, cool. If you wash every month, cool. They'll look great as long as you wear them hard enough.

Edited by minya on May 7, 2006 at 08:07 PM

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Quote: I like the enthusiasm, but we've had someone here all along who has been saying since day one that you don't have to wait 6 months + to wash your jeans. But because he doesn't host a Japanese website, he doesn't hold ultimate authority to you guys.

Amen.

Ryu's probably a nice guy and doubtless he's got some great jeans. But he's not a denim prophet and as far as " turning superfuture upside down?" please. It's his Geography and lifestyle that have shaped his denim and there's a lot of people on the board who could learn a few things from his approach instead of posting pictures of three month old starchy creases in whatever brand's hip that week.

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Wow, such controversy! I feel that you really need to exeperience how the jeans are fading before you can wash them. I wash my jeans when they are absolutely fithy and I am sure I have some good honeycomb fading. I wash in hot water with Dr. Bronners with no agitation. I used to use just water, but Dr. Bronners doesn't hrt. I let them soak for a couple of hours and rinse them till the water runs clean. I personally think that washing machines remove too much indigo, so I only hand wash. This is just how I do it and I am sure there are other ways. I treat my Japanese jeans in this same way. I agree that Ryu's jeans are awesome!

Carpe Denim! (not the jean brand silly!)

1123865699585_selvage_edited.JPG

Edited by Serge d Nimes on May 7, 2006 at 09:12 PM

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ryu has said that there is no right way or wrong way to wash your jeans. just like there is no right way or wrong way to wear your jeans or to do things in your jeans.

ringring, serge and a couple others have been saying this in one form or another for a long time. my favorite post of ringring's is "they're just jeans."

if you see ryu's new pair of jeans, it's a pair of joe mccoy's that he is treating very differently--he's washing much less frequently, he toned down his activities. the results are very different from his sugarcanes, but also beautiful in a different way.

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I THINK YOU KIDS JUAT HAVE TO WEAR YOUR JEANS AND PUT IT THRU A MORE DAY TO DAY WEAR AND TEAR

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that's great and very interesting thread !!

i don't care if you who watch or write like my stlye or not .

of course i'm happy to support or encourage your thought or something

i do really think 'they're jeans' , and 'only jeans' like you all.

the way of washing is only the way.

if you really want to get fading like mine, i must recommend you to ride bike....

from Geowu's word

there's another element that comes into play: the dyeing of the jeans.

if a good dyeing was made, the jeans are washed and they stay dark. if they've been faded, the faded areas get whiter and the dark areas stay dark. then you have contrast.

if a poor dyeing was made, the jeans are washed and they lose lots of indigo. if they've been faded, the faded areas get white faster and the dark areas will be no longer dark; they get blue. if you wash them a couple of times, there's no contrast.

i agree. it seems very hard to fade the D&G jeans out like vintage replica one

like my sugarcane, samurai and so on.

from DDML's word

the fundamental rule hasn't changed, don't wash until you can't stand the smell anymore

doing that tends to fade jeans contrastively i think.

so many problem,point there is..

depth of dyeing,doing what while you put on,the cycle of washing.......

there isn't a same jeans all over the world.

but that is what i really feel interesting. it's a pleasure....

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Quote: "This--is now MY way--where is yours?" Thus did I answer those who asked me "the way." For THE way--it doth not exist! Thus spake Zarathustra.

from Nietzsche

Using chain stitch, your train of jeans is fading wind.

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Quote:

Wow, such controversy! I feel that you really need to exeperience how the jeans are fading before you can wash them. I wash my jeans when they are absolutely fithy and I am sure I have some good honeycomb fading. I wash in hot water with Dr. Bronners with no agitation. I used to use just water, but Dr. Bronners doesn't hrt. I let them soak for a couple of hours and rinse them till the water runs clean. I personally think that washing machines remove too much indigo, so I only hand wash. This is just how I do it and I am sure there are other ways. I treat my Japanese jeans in this same way. I agree that Ryu's jeans are awesome!

--- Original message by Serge d Nimes on May 7, 2006 09:11 PM

I personally think that washing machines remove too much indigo -Serge

Wow thanks for all the replies guys.

So yea, thanks for answering my question. I WAS (not anymore) curious because of the above quote. I don't know how Ryu manages to fit 6 months of our wear into 1 month, and manage to advance the washes so much without losing so much indigo. I always thought that washing 'sets' the denim, and makes further fading much harder.

Now that teh quality of dyeing is brought up. In our experience, do we know what jeans can go through the once a month wash process without it turning into marbled 80s jeans? It'd be cool to safely experiment with different techniques every time

Edited by swyche on May 8, 2006 at 06:53 AM

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Going at a tangent slightly,

I would have thought Nudie in paticular, would have good dye. After all they are most vocal about the wearing of jeans in their marketing.

Also, don't they source their denim for theRRDS from japan? So how does that make them inferior to "japanese" denim?

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IMHO all jeans pale in comparison (pun intended) to good Japanese jeans. It is amazing how intense the color is on HK/ Japan Evisu and Warehouse jeans. I have had a couple of pairs of Denime's and would say that they are in a different camp. I would assume that Canes and Eternals have really intense color and can stand up to machine washing. APC and LVC jeans lose their color really (too) quickly and should only be washed on rare occaisions. I would assume that Nudie is the same way.

Carpe Denim! (not the jean brand silly!)

1123865699585_selvage_edited.JPG

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Quote:

IMHO all jeans pale in comparison (pun intended) to good Japanese jeans. It is amazing how intense the color is on HK/ Japan Evisu and Warehouse jeans. I have had a couple of pairs of Denime's and would say that they are in a different camp. I would assume that Canes and Eternals have really intense color and can stand up to machine washing. APC and LVC jeans lose their color really (too) quickly and should only be washed on rare occaisions. I would assume that Nudie is the same way.

--- Original message by Serge d Nimes on May 8, 2006 11:00 AM

denime is in a different camp good or different camp bad?

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sorry to thread jack. but where do you think edwin jeans fit. I have a pair of japan edwin nashvilles, and i don't expect them to be as high quality as denime's or canes, but are they better denim than apc?

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I really didn't like the feel or the look of the denim of either my 55 or 66 denime jeans. The fit on the 66 model was quite good. These were Japan made with the blue tag on the left butt pocket. I think they were for the European market.

Carpe Denim! (not the jean brand silly!)

1123865699585_selvage_edited.JPG

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You're right, Serge is a case where his jeans turn out really well and he only washes very infrequently. Another such example is TragicBliss.

I just get a little pang when I see so much worship and this "turning superfuture upside down" ideology, when in reality a lot of us have been saying "they're just jeans" for awhile.

Ryu, I hope you weren't offended by my comments earlier. I, as with everyone here, appreciates your contribution and I love your website. My comments were directed at those who seem to disregard all of the amazing information we've been lucky enough to receive from ringring, because they interpret what you say as being completely the opposite of this. In practice and thinking, I do not think you and I are different at all. I believe the same way - treat your jeans however you want to and they will look great.

Japanese jeans are awesome as far as fabric goes, but fit is a bit of a tough subject. For me, I can't wear the vintage-style jeans unless they're hug-your-ass-tight, because I don't like the anti-fit look. The best alternative, in the same realm of quality, are the American brands Prps, 5EP and Rag&Bone - all of which fade a bit slower, because of treatment with resin and such. I nearly flipped when I flatted out the thigh of my RB11s today and realized that there was ever so slight whiskering. The color (a grey/blue) is truly a sight to behold.

Edited by wild_whiskey on May 8, 2006 at 01:29 PM

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i guess it takes someone new to make people believe us when we say theyre just jeans. it takes pictures to prove that you can wash and not ruin your jeans.

If you've lost your faith in superfuture, Oh the end won't be long

Because if it's gone for you then I too may lose it, And that would be wrong

I've tried so hard to keep myself from falling

Back into my bad old ways

And it chars my heart to always hear you calling

Calling for the good old days

Because there were no good old days

These are the good old days

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What is it exactly that makes japanese denim better/break-in faster than denim fabrics from elsewhere? I mean, if you go from a theory that assumes that indigo is released through two ways (1. Heavy stress/friction in certain areas that will loose indigo from the actual fabric; 2. Introducing indigo into a water/soap solution that will dissolve indigo from the fabirc, albeit at an even rate throughout the enitre jean and not just centered in high stress areas), what is it about the actual dyeing process and fabric quality that will allow for faster indigo loss in high stress areas but more indigo retention in low stress ones? Is there something about the indigo used for dyeing, the process of dyeing, fabric dye retention qualities, or (most likely) a combination of all of the above? Why would any of this be specific to Japan? I would assume that all of the above criteria could be replicated anywhere else in the world. Sorry if all of this has been covered in previous posts, etc. but I am curious.

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Has it been mentioned that most japanese brands are dyed with natural indigo, not synthetic, which fades a lot better anyway, and continually with 'character' over time, unlike synthetic pure indigo.

Sounds like bullshit, but the jeans I have which are natural indigo dyed look a different colour in every different light, something quite unusual to these jeans.

yet my regular 'raw' jeans from Levis LVC died with pure indigo look the same colour in almost any light.

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If it is a question about natural vs. synthetic indigo then the use of natural indigo would make it not so particular to Japan. On another note, what is the quality of natural indigo that would make it fade faster than sythetic? I would assume that the two are molecularly identical (or are they not entirely?) and should produce identical results. The one difference that could be possible is that natural and synthetic would have different impurities that would effect there respective abilities to be released from the fabric?

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Quote: I would assume that the two are molecularly identical (or are they not entirely?) and should produce identical results.

--- Original message by spiveyt2 on May 8, 2006 03:06 PM

I reckon that's like saying Aspartame (Or any other artificial sweetener) and Sucrose (Natural Sugar) are the same (They're not)

I don't know the structure of Indigo dye (Synth and Natural) though.

Edited by Tabris on May 8, 2006 at 03:12 PM

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