Roy. (expurgated edition)

[Medine]

Hopefully he starts production up soon. I want to get another pair or 2..

[Vinneus]

i agree! ide grab a fresh pair regardless! as long as its thru him, but more importantly sewn by him!

[wgmds]

More ducks!

[paulduke04]

this is my first sufu post and i'm excited that Roy has come out of his hiding. despite his firm belief that he can make all the garments himself, i don't think he can look to expand his business without some help. perhaps hire a couple of apprentices - people with some experience/skills that share his passion for denim - that can learn from him and incorporate some sort of assembly line manufacturing process.

i am not hatin on his passion to handle all the manufacturing process. i actually appreciate that about him. but realistically, for longevity sake, geting some help will make his life easier and he won't burn out. keep the number fixed - 10 jeans per day or whatever - to maintain quality control.

let's do some simple math: if he charges $150 per jean and it costs him $120 to make (materials, rent, utilities, salary, etc) - he can turn a net profit of $60k per year on just a 10 jeans/day rate for 200 days out of 365.

also if he gets some help, he can take time out to make other things - ducks! shirts, jackets. and those things can help make his work more challenging and rewarding. perhaps even different cuts of jeans. i just don't think, with his skills, he should spend 2 hrs out of 8 hr workday, cutting patterns and stamping rivets when he can hire people to do that.

[kiya]

Paul, i totally see what you you're saying but Roy refuses to hire anybody to do anything.

100% of each jean is made by him and he's said time after time that he'll have it no other way.

[Vinneus]

now thats what makes Roy, ROY!

[mikecch]

^ Yep, from concept to final product - one man, ROY!

[ranonranonarat]

It's amazing to see what ROY does right now. I'm happy that he doesnt have his sights set on getting a healthy turnaround every year because that's what everyone else is doing.

let's face it, if we wanted to buy things like shirts, we could buy one almost anywhere. it's not too hard. the only reason why we bought a pair of ROYs here is because we like what we see from his work. his dedication, his craftsmanship, his values and philosophies and more importantly, how he connects with us.

from my personal point of view, i couldn't give a damn if he made shirts or not. it would be great if he did and i would buy them if he did but if he doesnt, then that's fine because i can buy a shirt anywhere else. but one thing is for sure, you can't buy another pair of ROYs made by someone else. ROY is someone who has a day job, started shit from scratch and put in every bit of dedication into making his customers jeans himself. that's what i call passion and that's the reason why i buy ROY jeans.

[akka225]

i usually like my jeans more after i give them a machine wash with detergent and get all of the starch out of the denim.

any reason not to give my roys a hot machine wash with detergent instead of a soak? what's the point of having all that starch in there?

[scout233]

akka225.. I think the biggest reason some people don't wash with detergent is that they like that initial stiffness.. and it may help set some of the creases / combs. Other than that, I don't think it is a big deal to give em a little wash. Go for it!

I just soaked my new Roy's today for the first time.. hot water, i let them soak for a good hour at least. I was surprised that the water did not turn blue. But, maybe with the agitation of the machine it would have. I think others have talked about this. Roy's seem to like to hold on to their indigo.

[paulduke04]

I too see why Roy's product is so great (btw i missed out on the deadline so i'm desperately waiting for the reopening). But my point was to make his hobby/passion/business more enjoyable, and thus more sustainable. Anyone that's in manufacturing, from small artisan craftman to giant corporation, knows that outsourcing and assembly line will improve not only the "bottom line" but also the product itself.

Hear me out - esp if Roy is reading this. I want to be clear that "outsourcing" is not some terrible new idea that happened recently. just as vertical and horizontal integration (this is econ/business gibberish but bear with me) has been around before Carnegie coined the term. First, Roy is not harvesting his own cotton, nor weaving or dying them. And thank God for that. He leaves that up to Cone Mills. By only concentrating on the denim jean construction, Roy has left other jean manufacturing aspects to 3rd parties - namely Cone. He trusts their quality standards, whether they be labeled black seed or white oak or whatever. Consequently, Roy can do his artist/craftsman thing without worrying about the denim itself. Another example: take a swordsmith from Japan. I have no evidence but I doubt that he mined his own iron. I'm sure he bought the iron from someone he trusted. The whole idea rests on trusting the other party to fullfil the expectations. Similarly i think Roy can train someone and in time, can trust that person to cut patterns and stamp rivets to Roy's standards. And Roy can concentrate more on the jean construction and design itself - while not having to work like a dog. so technically it's more like assembly line than outsourcing but the idea is the same.

anyways, that's just my late night 2 cents.

[akka225]

I too see why Roy's product is so great (btw i missed out on the deadline so i'm desperately waiting for the reopening). But my point was to make his hobby/passion/business more enjoyable, and thus more sustainable. Anyone that's in manufacturing, from small artisan craftman to giant corporation, knows that outsourcing and assembly line will improve not only the "bottom line" but also the product itself.

Hear me out - esp if Roy is reading this. I want to be clear that "outsourcing" is not some terrible new idea that happened recently. just as vertical and horizontal integration (this is econ/business gibberish but bear with me) has been around before Carnegie coined the term. First, Roy is not harvesting his own cotton, nor weaving or dying them. And thank God for that. He leaves that up to Cone Mills. By only concentrating on the denim jean construction, Roy has left other jean manufacturing aspects to 3rd parties - namely Cone. He trusts their quality standards, whether they be labeled black seed or white oak or whatever. Consequently, Roy can do his artist/craftsman thing without worrying about the denim itself. Another example: take a swordsmith from Japan. I have no evidence but I doubt that he mined his own iron. I'm sure he bought the iron from someone he trusted. The whole idea rests on trusting the other party to fullfil the expectations. Similarly i think Roy can train someone and in time, can trust that person to cut patterns and stamp rivets to Roy's standards. And Roy can concentrate more on the jean construction and design itself - while not having to work like a dog. so technically it's more like assembly line than outsourcing but the idea is the same.

anyways, that's just my late night 2 cents.

i'm going to go out on a limb and say roy knows he doesn't make his own cotton. thanks for your time.

(p.s. how high were you when you wrote this?)

[ranonranonarat]

I too see why Roy's product is so great (btw i missed out on the deadline so i'm desperately waiting for the reopening). But my point was to make his hobby/passion/business more enjoyable, and thus more sustainable. Anyone that's in manufacturing, from small artisan craftman to giant corporation, knows that outsourcing and assembly line will improve not only the "bottom line" but also the product itself.

Hear me out - esp if Roy is reading this. I want to be clear that "outsourcing" is not some terrible new idea that happened recently. just as vertical and horizontal integration (this is econ/business gibberish but bear with me) has been around before Carnegie coined the term. First, Roy is not harvesting his own cotton, nor weaving or dying them. And thank God for that. He leaves that up to Cone Mills. By only concentrating on the denim jean construction, Roy has left other jean manufacturing aspects to 3rd parties - namely Cone. He trusts their quality standards, whether they be labeled black seed or white oak or whatever. Consequently, Roy can do his artist/craftsman thing without worrying about the denim itself. Another example: take a swordsmith from Japan. I have no evidence but I doubt that he mined his own iron. I'm sure he bought the iron from someone he trusted. The whole idea rests on trusting the other party to fullfil the expectations. Similarly i think Roy can train someone and in time, can trust that person to cut patterns and stamp rivets to Roy's standards. And Roy can concentrate more on the jean construction and design itself - while not having to work like a dog. so technically it's more like assembly line than outsourcing but the idea is the same.

anyways, that's just my late night 2 cents.

i see your point and where you're coming from with sustainability and everything and i respect that. but at the end of the day, i want to put this out. the only reason why i buy ROY denim is because roy slaper makes them himself. everything from cutting them to putting them together. thats the reason why i buy them. if i wanted to buy something that someone else put together under ROY's name, i would rather spend that money on something else.

end of the day, i would rather receive a christmas card somebody made by themselves rather than a fancy one that can be bought from a departmental store.

[commodorewheeler]

i see your point and where you're coming from with sustainability and everything and i respect that. but at the end of the day, i want to put this out. the only reason why i buy ROY denim is because roy slaper makes them himself. everything from cutting them to putting them together. thats the reason why i buy them. if i wanted to buy something that someone else put together under ROY's name, i would rather spend that money on something else.

end of the day, i would rather receive a christmas card somebody made by themselves rather than a fancy one that can be bought from a departmental store.

I totally agree. A big part of ROY denim's appeal to me is that the man makes it himself and does a damn fine job of it.

[mikecch]

^ Well said Ranonranonarat - I like my Roy denim, but if it was Roy & Co., I would have second thoughts...

Every time I inspect the little details and find that they are equal, if not sometimes superior to, the most skilful Japanese manufacturers in many aspects, I would think of how much hard-work Roy not only put into making my pair of jeans, but the hours of his free time he spent perfecting his stitchings and techniques, sourcing the equipment and materials, learning about the making of denim jeans one step at a time...

I don't think you can put a price on the passion that goes into each pair of Roy's, and that's precisely why I would keep on wearing and buying Roy's.

Roy denim is so special because of that very intimate connection (ok, that's not take this the wrong way) - the attention & care he puts into every pair of Roy jeans gives them that personal touch that you can't find on other jeans. If you take that away, Roy Denim would be lost in a sea of new jeans-makers (at least in my mind).

If the day comes when Roy Denim becomes a production-line operation, I would most likely go back to wearing SDA's and the like (my closet is bursting with unused jeans) - but right now, for a pair of Roy's, I'm willing to throw my 'no new denim' rule into the trash-can.

[entertainment!]

I just soaked my new Roy's today for the first time.. hot water, i let them soak for a good hour at least. I was surprised that the water did not turn blue. But, maybe with the agitation of the machine it would have. I think others have talked about this. Roy's seem to like to hold on to their indigo.

Cone denim has an amazing ability to hold onto indigo during soaking. This has been true for my ROYs and all the LVC jeans I have that were made from Cone denim. The water is almost always clear after the initial soak.

[rnrswitch]

Aside from the main selling aspect for ROY jeans is ROY slaper himself, it would also be very difficult for him to outsource some of his production. Many of the machines he has are vintage and very hard to find. This is the same reason why Rising Sun only has two people that manufacture their jeans in the back of the store. Mainly because the machines are few and far between. You would have difficulty finding any factory in the states with those old machines around. If I wanted a factory run pair of jeans I would get LVC or some Japanese brand.

On the other hand, though, from a one-man production stand point, ROY should diversify his load. Even for the most dedicated artisan, it would get old polishing off 10 pairs of ROYs a day (where the only difference is the SUFU handle embroidered on the pocket). I am sure he would like to make a few other things that test his and his machines' abilities. I am sure ROY's prices will go up and I hope he will start making other garments, mainly for his own mental sanity. Creative people, like ROY, need to create.

Also, sufu folks can typically max out at one pair of ROY's, so he needs to create some other stuff to keep sucking money out of the trust fund babies.

[smittybat]

I agree it can get old making 10 pairs of jeans per day forever, but I don't think he's going to be selling that many pairs in a year. It does make sense to do the items in batches though. Only jeans for a week, only jackets the next week, then shirts for a week or something like that.

I do think Roy making the items is a huge point in why folks like his stuff. I also like that he uses Cone denim so the jeans are totally made is the USA.

[paulduke04]

ok, i think i'm preaching to the wrong choir so i'll stop with my ideas.

let's just hope Roy stays around for a very long time, producing the best quality jeans - it's about time the nation that invented the damn thing produced the best.

i have a question to kiya: have you approached Roy or Roy approached you about distributing his jeans?

[kiya]

i have a question to kiya: have you approached Roy or Roy approached you about distributing his jeans?

We approached each other over this topic a couple of years ago.

[scout233]

"ok, i think i'm preaching to the wrong choir so i'll stop with my ideas."

I don't think it was a bad idea, but i think you tapped into one of the things that make Roy's special to the guys here. They have a lot of mojo going on with them.. and part of that mojo is Roy making them...could some of the processes be subbed out?.. Sure, if Roy believes that it won't fuck with the "mojo" of the end product. I think any one that has bought jeans from Roy get the vibe from him that whatever direction roy's products take, it will have to happen very organically. I am excited to see where he takes it.

[lostinthesupermarket]

Given that Roy wants do everything himself, supply of these things is going to remain extremely limited. The post on his homepage indicates that at the moment demand significantly exceeds that amount. An economist would predict an increase in price.

I think they were underpriced at $150 myself.

[TallyHo]

whatever roy chooses to do, i think it's safe to say he has made some lifelong fans here.

while i would love to see a roy store open up (and to see what creative ways roy approaches retail), i don't think that would be the right move for him at this point. the appeal of these jeans goes beyond the fact that roy made them start-to-finish; he also made them specifically for you. these are not custom jeans, but they give the impression that they are. if there was a rack full of roy jeans in all sizes, they wouldn't be quite as appealing even if they were still made by roy alone. i could ramble on with comparisons to surfboard shapers, but i doubt anyone's interested.

i think there are precisely 3 things that roy is considering right now:

1. do i quit my day job?

2. do i expand my product line?

3. where do i set my price points?

if roy insists on continuing as the sole craftsman (which i wholeheartedly applaud), and he is having trouble keeping up with demand, i'm afraid the pricing is going to be the first thing to go. he's got to find the optimal price point and he'll be all set - no need to hire or outsource, maybe even have some free time to work on new designs.

my biggest fear for roy is that he overestimates his market due to the surge in orders at the deadline. i think that when he comes back, he'll get a bunch of orders from people who missed the deadline, but then activity will slow down significantly again. the last thing he wants to do is overshoot his mark.

edit: for the abridged version of this post, please refer to lostinthesupermarket's post above.

[Happy Hooligan]

Given that Roy wants do everything himself, supply of these things is going to remain extremely limited. The post on his homepage indicates that at the moment demand significantly exceeds that amount. An economist would predict an increase in price.

I think they were underpriced at $150 myself.

just wait till they're in a store... then they'll be the $300.00 marked up like you'd like...

[nate1492]

Maybe Roy should talk to Ande Whall? He's a one man operation without retail, and he makes his living from jeans.

[lostinthesupermarket]

It's not a question of what I'd like, mate, I'm notoriously cheap and I missed the fucking deadline!

It's realism....no one else is making jeans the way Roy does in the US except Rising Sun....and look at their pricepoints.

[Happy Hooligan]

It's not a question of what I'd like, mate, I'm notoriously cheap and I missed the fucking deadline!

I'm just kidding.. .but not about the price... Yeah, I missed it too by two days...

just waiting till the next batch goes through....

[rnrswitch]

i could ramble on with comparisons to surfboard shapers, but i doubt anyone's interested.

Really, you doubt that? Maybe a comparison between a factory shaped Channel Islands board and a hand shaped custom board by Merrick himself would suffice.

I, myself, prefer a Rick Cane Chandler shaped board.

Also, I don't believe ROY has overestimated the demand. He is well aware that the last order was a surge to get "in before lock."

[rnrswitch]

It's not a question of what I'd like, mate, I'm notoriously cheap and I missed the fucking deadline!

It's realism....no one else is making jeans the way Roy does in the US except Rising Sun....and look at their pricepoints.

Actually, Rising Sun's prices aren't too bad when you get away from the niche jeans (like the single needle throughout stuff), but the problem is that aside from the Yukon, Blacksmith, and their recent repros, there ain't much that looks too great. Although there is a nice pair of duck jeans for about $300.

[TallyHo]

Really, you doubt that? Maybe a comparison between a factory shaped Channel Islands board and a hand shaped custom board by Merrick himself would suffice.

I, myself, prefer a Rick Cane Chandler shaped board.

Also, I don't believe ROY has overestimated the demand. He is well aware that the last order was a surge to get "in before lock."

obviously i'm gonna rep north shore references forever, but i gotta spread.

i'll come back with some shaper analogies when i don't have real work to do... and some of the first good waves of the summer to surf...