The Denim Debate

[akka225]

Once again, you're over thinking this..

A few guys contacted us to buy jeans for a blog they were doing, we sold them the jeans, they launched the site and i decided to start a thread on it.

Looks like your baiting isn't working too well for this subject, better find something else to pull with.

I don't see any baiting. People here have been pretty open and honest with their thoughts and concerns and you have been given a perfect opportunity to address them.

[andewhall]

I always loved those 2 for 1 SDA's, haha, had forgot about them, they are so cool. Keen to see how they go.

[grooveholmes]

I think it's an interesting idea and I'm hoping it will continue to evolve as the weeks/months progress. I've also enjoyed some of the blog write-ups by some of the participants. It seems that the updating will occur fairly infrequently given that some of the folks are pretty busy with their own projects/businesses, but I guess if you have enough participants, the postings will overlap. The Debate does seem similar to the Edwin/Tinker Tailor project right now, but I do like the variety of brands. It's bookmarked in my browser and I'll check in every once in awhile to see how things are progressing. I dislike Flickr too-- I hope they move to hosting the photos on-site.

[acidline]

Amazing how, this whole thread has been derailed so much I don't even wanna bother checking out the denimdebate site anymore..

Though I agree it's a bit sketchy to have a brand manager wearing his brand jeans, is it really that big of a deal? The pictures should be doing the talking, people aren't gonna be buying jeans because of all the words, they'll see nicely faded jeans and buy those. Seriously, we should all know to take any commentary with a grain of salt, just look at the goddamn pictures and move on.

[LC_Miey]

Im not attacking Kiya or Selfedge as I buy from them too but im saying this as a response to denimdebate

Overthinking? Maybe

but i think the main reason some people here dont agree with denimdebate is because the fact that they claim the site to be something like an innocent blog where they post the evo of their jeans just for the fun of it.- but TRUTH is denimdebate is set up for the main purpose of marketing. They even make an effort to mention they are not paid to wear the jeans but atleast half of them will be making money indirectly, benefiting from the site as people discover about japanese denim, they want to buy japanese denim.

If they dont make it sound like a dry denim missionary and all the contributors as denim prophets by claiming themselves as taste makes, I dont think I will ever even bothered to reply to this thread.

Everyday we are fed with intrusive marketing but it is harder to stomach or ignore when the marketing is trying to manipulate something that we are all passionate about.

and why i care or overthink about this?

Because i think denimdebate is being too aggresive in trying to feed the whole population with the idea of dry denim. and i dont take things at face value. It makes me sick having this feeling of somebody trying to push products in my face everytime i read or hear something like denimdebate.

As a whole, I dont mind denimdebate, i dont care about it anyway but It just i feel like the whole japanese denim niche is being raped by this excessive mass exposure.

Right now even saying 'japanese denim' feels so cliche.

Ive said all i wanted to say.

Peace

[fobsquad]

Many times on forums a person posts something and the snowball effect of negativity ruins it for future readers, this takes place in ANY niche hobby. I've seen this first hand ruin scenes from music to yoyo culture, eventually nobody except for kids frequent the online communities.

it's just a site where some bloggers are showing off some jeans and writing about what they think about the product, these people are not paid for any of this.

i'm sure kiya's got some capital to gain by advertising the site and it's affiliates, but so does almost every post he's made on this forum. as a "kid" to the denim community, i'd consider kiya one of the "tastemakers" and wouldn't doubt if many others here think the same. since he's is in the business himself, our discussion may help him see where his industry's future is headed.

thanks kiya, for keeping your posts as objective as possible so far.

i agree with Zubin that denimdebate is trying to drop knowledge beyond japanese denim (or APC NS) readily available in sufu archives. you can tell by the blog comments that there are still denimheads outside of sufu.

on the contrary, it is also sites/blogs like these that add to the hype and cause the downfall of it's true sub-culture. (perhaps some irony in kiya's OP?)

as a child of strictly dunk/jordan sneakerhead-ism, i can defo see a denim world transform(ed) into a hyped trend. it's already evident with the overgrown spread of 'selvedge' jeans by every brand.

[coleslawyum]

I've seen this word too many times. Can someone tell me what the hell a tastemaker is??

[fobsquad]

I've seen this word too many times. Can someone tell me what the hell a tastemaker is??

ppl who post pics in waywt.(5)

or someone who's style philosophy you aspire to.

[LC_Miey]

I've seen this word too many times. Can someone tell me what the hell a tastemaker is??

here a quickfix from online dictionary:

1)One that determines or strongly influences current trends or styles, as in fashion or the arts

2) a person or group that sets a new fashion

3)one who sets the standards of what is currently popular or fashionable

[iamstarwars]

as a child of strictly dunk/jordan sneakerhead-ism, i can defo see a denim world transform(ed) into a hyped trend. it's already evident with the overgrown spread of 'selvedge' jeans by every brand.

It's already the case. It has been for a while now.

[Snake]

I like this project. It is geared more towards people who know little or nothing about raw denim though. I think this website can show people who thinks spending $200 - $400 on a pair of jean is ridiculous what raw denim subculture is about. I think this is the gap they speak of. For me, the more people understand this subculture and the more people want to be in this subculture the better.

Is this project a marketing scheme? Of course. What’s wrong with marketing? I don’t think it’s aggressive, intrusive, or even manipulative. It’s only a website. What’s wrong with store/brand managers showcasing brands they carry? These people are not hiding the fact that they are financially tied to the brands. Japanese denim brands like Warehouse, SDA, Samurai, UES, Sugar Cane, Flat Head, Real McCoy, and Fullcount have their products in magazines like F&E, Lightning, Daytona Bros, 2nd and Mono all the time. These denim bosses and store/brand managers also have websites and blogs doing essentially the same thing as Denim Debate, showcasing their denim products with examples of worn jeans. I don’t understand how this project warrants such negative reaction.

[grooveholmes]

I hardly think any of the participants or donors are chomping at the bit or licking their chops or [insert other anecdote here] at the opportunity to move mass amounts of their product through the DD site. If anything, it's more collaborative than competitive. It's exposure, sure, and that can be a form of marketing, but I'm not convinced that it's completely driven by marketing or the "need to sell" as you imply. A lot of these manufacturers of smaller batches of denim aren't making huge profits; many of them are in it more for the love of the craft itself. It's a niche market. Yes, they have to make money to keep their businesses afloat, but don't accuse them of being disingenuous and judge that any form of marketing is somehow the opposite of altruism. You're missing the point of the DD site. There's something for (most) everybody. I'm a consumer; I like to buy things; I have money to buy things; the site and others like it (like this forum) will help me decide what jeans I want to buy next. If I decide to buy a pair of Japanese or Cone Mill jeans or whatever based on the site, no big deal. If I only like to look at pictures and fades, no big. I don't feel any pressure to buy, nor do I think any of the contributors want people to feel the pressure to buy anything. If it was a pay site, then I'd be more skeptical and feel they are trying to manipulate others. From what I gather, there is a certain amount of artisnal pride that goes into making a garment of quality, and I think some of these other, more obscure (or newer) brands are excited about their product and would love the opportunity to reach a wider (though small, niche) audience. Most of the denim nerds out there will be smart enough to know what they do or do not want to buy. The newer folks will be initially turned off by the price tags but may like what they see in a lower-priced pair or may do some more research through other sites. Again, there is something for everybody-- quit acting like this shit is some kind of secret cult.

[amardeep]

I'm not really sure what this site is, but I can't say I like it.

Instead of making some long-winded post though, here's why:

1. the complete bullshit paragraphs that Stacks quoted on the first page of this thread
   
2. the subtle (not even) marketing scheme behind this, though I guess it is fair game on an independently owned site on the internet
   
3. the fact that this is almost exactly like my DenimWiki except the sort of "outside-looking-in" feeling they're creating rather than the interactivity.

I dunno, maybe I'm biased because I made the DenimWiki and it's slowly failing, but I just get an elitist vibe from this site. Any time someone tries to depict something like denim as a "culture" or "cult" I get annoyed.

Good discussion here nonetheless. I disagree with you Kiya saying people or overthinking this; people have the right to critique what they want, and the premise of the site is something that's not talked about here much, so people are obviously going to comment on it.

[geneticdrifter]

Once again, you're over thinking this..

A few guys contacted us to buy jeans for a blog they were doing, we sold them the jeans, they launched the site and i decided to start a thread on it.

Looks like your baiting isn't working too well for this subject, better find something else to pull with.

lets face it, you're scared. no two ways about it.

you start the thread.

you label any commentary as group think. (not at all objective by the way)

you call akka out.

and now you have the extremely altered perception to call it baiting.

I asked you a direct question as did stacks.

You know it, i know it. your afraid to actually join the debate with anything substantial because you're afraid to paint yourself into economic corner. from what i see, you care more about the money than any of the other stuff. than the culture or the craftsmanship or whatever.

you are here for money. if you weren't, than prove it. join the debate, and stand on your own two feet. stop running from establishing a position for yourself. answer an intelligent question with something more than a flippant dismissal. you give interviews. i know you are able to answer questions. I've seen your for profit thread. You seem able to function rationally when commerce is involved. fuck i commend your hustle. props to your economic development. but this is the downside to your hype-based marketing.

put your money where your mouth is.

[ssheat]

l

put your money where your mouth is.

Its almost slightly ironic that you say this to kiya, but anyway...

There's no point in analyzing this and taking it up as a personal issue and conflict. Take it for what it is, a sort of effort to promote japanese denim as a concept.

[geneticdrifter]

Its almost slightly ironic that you say this to kiya, but anyway...

There's no point in analyzing this and taking it up as a personal issue and conflict. Take it for what it is, a sort of effort to promote japanese denim as a concept.

it is ironic, he is here as a "guerilla marketer." he speaks from this vantage point. I can accept that in his thread. but he comes here (to this thread) to start a "discussion," then labels the discussion as negative because it is not going his way, calls people out for having their own valid opinions, and then wants to run from the conversation. anyone else smell fish....?

and there is also no point for buying jeans or or watching movies but we do it. Just b/c you don't see the worth in something, try not to down it.

these are words on the internet. if its "too much" for anyone, i think they have the issue. are the words discussion and debate both in the first post? so lets have one.

i followed the golden road, now come from behind the curtain. great wizard of "positive group think."

[dbk4sf]

He prolly has nothing to say to you because talking to batshit crazy only elevates it.

[mpcec]

Denim Debate isn't going to make or break Kiya's business. What the fuck does he have to be "afraid" of. You are terrible at curating any kind of intelligent discussion.

Also this:

I like this project. It is geared more towards people who know little or nothing about raw denim though. I think this website can show people who thinks spending $200 - $400 on a pair of jean is ridiculous what raw denim subculture is about. I think this is the gap they speak of. For me, the more people understand this subculture and the more people want to be in this subculture the better.

Is this project a marketing scheme? Of course. What’s wrong with marketing? I don’t think it’s aggressive, intrusive, or even manipulative. It’s only a website. What’s wrong with store/brand managers showcasing brands they carry? These people are not hiding the fact that they are financially tied to the brands. Japanese denim brands like Warehouse, SDA, Samurai, UES, Sugar Cane, Flat Head, Real McCoy, and Fullcount have their products in magazines like F&E, Lightning, Daytona Bros, 2nd and Mono all the time. These denim bosses and store/brand managers also have websites and blogs doing essentially the same thing as Denim Debate, showcasing their denim products with examples of worn jeans. I don’t understand how this project warrants such negative reaction.

[milosz]

it is ironic, he is here as a "guerilla marketer." he speaks from this vantage point. I can accept that in his thread. but he comes here (to this thread) to start a "discussion," then labels the discussion as negative because it is not going his way, calls people out for having their own valid opinions, and then wants to run from the conversation. anyone else smell fish....

[boogaloo]

I don't think the jeans will be given much of a workout considering all of the wearers are desk jockeys. The jeans would be tested better by someone in construction or outdoor pursuits. These guys would not be able to wear a hole in a pair of Walmart jeans in their daily swivel chair activities. The wallet fades should be nice though. Don't expect to find Nevada tin miner clones at the end.

[boogaloo]

Hey, I didn't pay $250 a month to be insulted I'll have you know.

[mr.invincible]

eh... who needs that when you have this forum.

To think that you can judge denim by 1 person's wear on them is laughable, really. Coupled with the fact that they are missing so many heavy hitters it strikes me as little more than creative marketing.

so much bullshit in this paragraph...don't really know where to begin.

e2: was gonna make a joke about how they typo'd "the sartorialist" in the featured section but I guess they changed it just now.

^co-sign. Who's wearing these, desk jockeys or extreme athletes? At least on sufu you 'know' the person behind the pair.

ppl please vouch for me to represent evisu no. 1 haahah

[mackie]

Dang, lol-ing at the tags.

On a completely unrelated note, that site is in serious need of copyediting/proofreading. I'm a sucker for the guilty pleasure of a GQ/valet.com kind of vibe, but all that swank design is going to waste if the "its" vs "it's" and related bits aren't properly sorted.

[mpcec]

I don't think the jeans will be given much of a workout considering all of the wearers are desk jockeys. The jeans would be tested better by someone in construction or outdoor pursuits. These guys would not be able to wear a hole in a pair of Walmart jeans in their daily swivel chair activities. The wallet fades should be nice though. Don't expect to find Nevada tin miner clones at the end.

Seeing as the majority of sufu posters who buy raw denim aren't construction workers, yet still manage to achieve some beautiful fades, I'm sure these guys will do just fine...

[coupon]

ohs nos, people out there actually want to make money?

[Yuy]

i love the site once i realized that everyone had their own page and i didnt need to keep going to flickr. interested to see how Jon Gaffney's Dope x Drakkar and Ryan Huber's Momotaro's turn out.

[poly800rock]

I don't think the jeans will be given much of a workout considering all of the wearers are desk jockeys. The jeans would be tested better by someone in construction or outdoor pursuits. These guys would not be able to wear a hole in a pair of Walmart jeans in their daily swivel chair activities. The wallet fades should be nice though. Don't expect to find Nevada tin miner clones at the end.

i've never had anything other than a white collar job and people think i roll around in dirt all day and hike the hymalas.

you'd be surprised if you wore you jeans every day

[Pletty]

I'm not for sure exactly what you guys are so upset about because another site is trying to create something on a topic you obviously like... this site is not made to replace or compete with the SuFu’s of the world… I just wanted something better looking, easier to operate and not so entrenched…

If you have any constructive criticism for the site, other than discussing what brands we aren't covering (which I don't understand why this matters since we bought the jeans we wanted) and why we all don't work in construction when 90% of you are white-collar workers anyway. Feel free to comment, ask questions and help us make a better site… otherwise enjoy bantering here amongst yourselves.

[greasypeanut]

Seeing as the majority of sufu posters who buy raw denim aren't construction workers, yet still manage to achieve some beautiful fades, I'm sure these guys will do just fine...

+1

and besides all they have to do is start riding a bike every day and theyd get fades that everyone would be plusrepping if their pics were on the evo thread

[rnrswitch]

Would you guys be willing to include other people who know their stuff about denim and allow them to pick their poison of jeans to wear?

My complaint on the denim selection is mainly because a lot of those jeans are jeans I am not interested in, although I would still love to see how jeans that don't get much airtime around here compare to the jeans that do get a lot of airtime. Rising Sun, Left Field, Raleigh and some of the others.

In regards to the "marketing" aspect that people are going on an on about in this thread, what do you have to say about that? The most glaring being that the Baldwin dude is wearing Baldwin jeans and I think some of the other dudes are selling the same jeans they are wearing. I could be wrong, so feel free to correct me. I am not saying this is "wrong" or anything, but do you see how it could possibly lead to somebody not really having an objective and informative opinion on their jeans? I was under the impression that the site is meant to inform people who are looking for a great pair of jeans.

I hope this doesn't sound like I am attacking you, because I really don't want it to come off that way. I like the idea of the Denim Debate and I hope that the people involved update frequently, especially the dude with the Rising Suns (any idea what model he will be wearing? Please say the Blacksmiths).

Once again, no offense please.