Repros and the Japanese Identity

[lmaozedong]

Hi guys, I don't know how this will go over, but I'm currently taking a course entitled Modernism and the Theory of Fashion. We're writing our final papers right now, and I'm writing mine on Japanese fashion (go figure).

Specifically, I'm discussing Japanese repro jeans. I view Japanese culture as somewhat xenophobic to an extent (a general statement, but to a large extent probably true), and I find the heavy use of American motifs in Japanese everyday wear pretty interesting, with brands like BAPE, and particularly Japanese repros of American jeans, like Levi's. I'm interested in what the use of these repro jeans says about the Japanese identity--particularly as it relates to the push and pull between imitation and innovation (finding one's own cultural identity). Keep in mind that this is NOT a history class or a history of fashion class, but that we're more interested in discussing the theories behind fashion and the ideas behind the decisions that people make to use and imitate certain types of clothing, etc..

I'm also not asking you guys to write my paper for me, nor would I want you to do that. I'm just asking for you to point me in the right direction, possibly with sources I can read, etc. and to discuss the topic I've presented so I can bounce ideas off of you, the people who are probably most knowledgeable in this area anywhere. I don't pretend to know a heck of a lot about this topic but having read sufu for a while, I thought it'd be something that would be really fun to research and write about. I'm also not much of a fashion theoritician--I'm a bio major taking and English class to fulfill a general requirement, so please excuse my lack of knowledge in this area.

Your help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

[aho]

Just random thoughts off the fly, would be interesting to research the development of repro brands in conjunction with US policies in the post war era (opening of trade, US involvement in reconstructing infrastructure and institutions) in order to extrapolate overall US influence. The Japanese national identity was fractured with its loss in the war as it for many years based its existence upon the Emperor worship system (based in a bastardized Shinto) which further propagated Japanese society as hyper-militarized, hyper-industrialized etc etc. Not sure if that helps but maybe delve into how the US/Allied forces were basically rebuilding Japan as how it saw fit (de-militarized, etc.) which might've led to a certain nostalgia for American ideals/overall discourse? Damn I'm probably not helping as my history (particularly with the repro companies) is admittedly weak...anyways good luck! Paper writing sucks...bout to pull an all-nighter for one!

EDIT: lol just re-read your original post and I guess I'm focusing too much on history?

[Paul T]

Japanese culutre has always been great at learning from other cultures.

As I understnad it, Japan imported a huge amount of know-how in the Victorain era, hiring huge numbers of Brits (or, rather Scots) to improve their administrative and engineering infrastructure. (This is one reason why the Japanese like whisky and golf). I see the adoption of US cultural signifiers as part of that.

You also have to recognise there is a huge gap between youth culture and traditional Japanese culture. For the young, adopting US fashions was a very effective way of rebelling against the conformism of their parents .

[thatslapz]

Hey, I'm actually going to be working on a research project next year on this topic. I'm taking my advisor's class now to gain some background in this area (I'm a managerial econ major), and to learn how to talk about it. The class is called Textiles and Cultural Studies and some concepts that I've found that apply to this area are things like appropriation and globalization.

My professor brought up the idea of the global paradox, wherein "people around the world are exposed (resources permitting) to the same kinds of images and objects, yet there is also increasing differentiation." Applied in this context, it's easy to see the intersection of appropriation with this idea; the Japanese Repro companies are exposed to "American" clothing, and then reinterpret it. Though in the process, they don't always give credit to the culture or company they borrowed from. I suppose evidence of this could come from the Levi's lawsuits.

Appropriation can also take the form of a tribute. In my class, my advisor gave the YSL tribute to Van Gogh as an example. Tributes raise questions about visual plagiarism.

The classic five pocket jean can also be studied by looking at the concept of agency, or how one expresses their voice. An example would be men's business suits. Suits, in general, have a standard form. However, men gain agency with little details, such tie color and the materials used on the suit. I see it the same way as jeans. You have your basic, Walmart jeans, and then you have your super detailed Japanese repro jean. To the uneducated (average) consumer, they wouldn't be able to tell much of a difference. However to those that can, you're expressing your agency to them.

I have more ideas to throw around, and if you're interested in discussing this more, just pm me. But it's 90 degrees in my apartment and I'm just going to try to sleep through it. Good luck.

EDIT:

Sorry I reread your OP and I guess you're more focused on identity, but you can throw in some of those words and you'll sound like you have a background in cultural studies haha.

[lmaozedong]

thanks aho--

I'm sure that US policies in postwar Japan had a great deal to do with the popularity of repro cuts today. I'm more interested, however, in repro denim today as it relates to fashion and identity. Identity in fashion exists in somewhat a pardoxical state--people try to imitate and fit into their culture while maintaining their own identity by putting their own personal twists into their choice of clothing, etc. simultaneously trying to fit in and stand out at the same time. I see the use of repro cuts by the Japanese as this same process on a larger scale--while the Japanese imitate a certain subset of clothes from American culture from a certain time period, there is a definite Japanese element to them (the quality of the handiwork, the meticulousness of the dying process, etc.). I'm interested in 1) why the Japanese were particularly interested in repro cuts 2) what this says about Japanese culture and 3) what the identity that the Japanese are trying to construct is, and what this says about Japanese culture..

anyway, what are you doing on sufu if you need to pull an all-nighter!--although i definitely constantly procrastinate on sufu

thatslapz--that's exactly the line of thinking that I'm going along--I'll be sure to PM you sometime later thank you!!

[ethanedwards]

But like that seems to be two separate issues, the issue of capability and demand. I feel you are looking at too narrow a model, yes it is true that the Japanese are known for their appreciation of said articles, and certainly known for their craftsmanship and ability to reproduce consumer goods at the highest possible standard. However when you're talking about 'Repro cuts' etc. , those pants are in demand all over the world, not just in Japan, it just so happens that Japan has the ability and is succeeding in production and marketing to a certain extent at this point in time. You might want to consider the overall broader industrial expansion and evolution of at least South East Asia. For example, Japan initially was the leader in that part of the world in consumer electronics however developments in the late 20th century have led to the rising powers of China, Korea and others. In the case of denim for example, Lee by Edwin has their Repros produced in China. And certainly there is demand in every country in South East Asia to some extent, and all over Europe in pockets, post colonial Africa I'm sure as well. Anyways who knows, wait 10 years and maybe we'll all be talking about Chinese Repros.

[blm14]

Dope thread.

I would definitely start by looking at world war II. There was a pervasive American influence in japan during what was socially, economically, even architecturally, a redefinition and resurgence of japanese culture and what it meant to be Japanese.

As other posters have mentioned, Japan has historically been absorptive of ideas from other cultures, but interestingly usually redefines them as her own. Some examples:

- Chinese written language (also adopted elsewhere, admittedly)

- Religion of all kinds (Buddhism in particular, but I have a friend whose parents consider themselves christian but still engage in buddhist meditation and routinely visit Shinto shrines and see no contradiction in any of that).

- Food

I did a paper on a sort of similar topic YEARS ago and there's lots of books out there about it.

Regarding fashion in particular, although these repro jeans are popular everywhere, I think it's safe to say that Japan spearheaded the movement. They were the earliest manufacturers of repro cuts, they were largely behind the increase in value of old levis (by looking for them and coveting them), and to date the largest number of repro jeans and repro brands comes out of japan.

I think you could write a very good paper on how the adoption of classical american clothing by japan fits in with its post-war experience specifically and with the japanese tendency to take something foreign and make it their own...

[lmaozedong]

Thanks guys--

I'm definitely interested in the process of the Japanese taking foreign things and making it their own. How does this relate to Japanese culture and identity in a deep way? As I mentioned before, I feel Japanese culture is partially xenophobic--they definitely have a strong nationalistic identity (although it has been weakening since WWII), and as a population are largely homogenous (99% speak Japanese as their first language, 90% are either Shinto or Buddhist, etc.). What then, does the tendency to adapt elements from other cultures say about the Japanese identity?

Another question that's come up in my mind is why repros? Among all the American elements of fashion the Japanese could have chosen during the post-war period, what was the particular appeal of denim repros to the Japanese?

[zhaolasi]

I'd recommend reading up on the recent literature on identity, and arriving at a working definition of identity for your paper, for starters. The discussion could go on and on about adaptability, nostalgia, post-war transformation, repros, and maybe even the recent rise of Japanese designers in the world of high fashion, but without boundaries to the notion of identity, your project could still end up without direction. Like many people here I suspect that the fascination with repros have to do with American occupation 1945-1951, during which time there was an ideological void and distinct cultures of defeat, followed by the revolutions imposed by the Americans, which resulted in quite large segments of the Japanese society feeling indebted to the U.S. MacArthur, for one, was regarded almost as a god.

Here's a few pointers:

For the post-war transformation of Japan, see John Dower's book Embracing Defeat: Japan in the Wake of World War II.

For a sense of national identity, see Benedict Anderson's book Imagined Communities

For theory on history and memory as sources of identity, and the tension contained therewithin, see Allan Megill's book Historical Knowledge, Historical Error, particularly Chapter 2.

For aesthetic theory on modernity, see Matei Calinescu, Five Faces of Modernity.

I don't know if there's a reliable book or article out there on the history of Japanese repros; I doubt it, but I would very much like to see someone research the topic and relate it in someway to the Japanese experience of nation-building/community-building.

Good luck.

[blm14]

These books may or may not be useful:

http://www.amazon.com/Denim-Cowboys-Catwalks-History-Legendary/dp/1845131118/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240418220&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/Denim-Cowboys-Catwalks-History-Legendary/dp/1854107917/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240418220&sr=8-14

http://www.amazon.com/Fugitive-Denim-Moving-People-Borderless/dp/0393061809/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240418285&sr=1-2

[TTM]

Whats that saying in Japan: The nail that sticks out gets hammered down?

Americans invented the jeans and the cuts, and the Japanese perfect it. Where is their original innovation?

[blm14]

there is almost no such thing as original innovation. Everyone stands on the heads of giants

[rnrswitch]

You might want to look at the advent of the consumerist culture. I don't know about Japan pre-WWII, but america at the turn of the century had started to become a consumerist culture, where consumption drove the economy, it has since become much more, but it began in the earlier 1900s. After WWII the american marketing machine was open to a brand new population (the japanese). These original images of America (baseball, cowboys, greasers, etc.) seem to have stuck with Japan for some time.

Japan's culture may be xenophobic and not open to outsiders, but nonetheless, they are very consumerist and I don't think that is coincidental with America helping to rewrite their "constitution." Japan seems to not really like the "real" America, but rather the stereotypical america and seems sometimes to not get the big picture of our culture as is expected... they don't experience our lifestyle except through the media.

I think the infatuation with american culture may be somewhat of a guilty pleasure, where they get to shuck traditional norms for the more relaxed American culture and look, while adhering mentally and practically to traditional norms. This might be somewhat like wealthy suburban white youth liking hip hop and rap, while still adhering to their parents racists practices. It is a chance to rebel without really mentally rebelling, it just gives the perception of rebellion through dress.

[Paul T]

Whats that saying in Japan: The nail that sticks out gets hammered down?

Americans invented the jeans and the cuts, and the Japanese perfect it. Where is their original innovation?

Hold on - European Jews invented the blue jean!

[lmaozedong]

There have been a lot of really interesting ideas thrown around in this thread, particularly relating to what the advent of the repro jean says about global trends in fashion and the influence of America on post-war Japan.

Right now, I'm thinking about taking the concept of identity and imitation vs. differentiation and applying it to the global market, as illustrated by the repro jean. I could see the advent of repro jeans in Japan to be an example of a group taking elements from the dominant culture (America) and reinterpreting it in a way that differentiates that group--in this way demonstrating the concept of "identity". In a more global sense, I can see this operating--in which different cultures take the same item (the five-pocket jean) increasingly, yet differentiation persists or even increases in different countries, speaking to these countries' respective "identities," as thatslapz mentioned. Your thoughts?

[raWorkshop]

It is a chance to rebel without really mentally rebelling, it just gives the perception of rebellion through dress.

In social theory, British Cultural Studies especially, a lot of this is referred to as "spectacular subculture" (spectacular as in spectacle, not superhomo like ourselves). You should also look at who in Japan is wearing these. Youngish I'm assuming, but what are the other important demographic infos? Working class? Educated?

There's a super good article about this sort of perspective called "Posing threats, striking poses" or something, by Dick Hedbidge I believe. It's about British subcultures but the lessons are more or less the same.

[lmaozedong]

Wow--actually, that's the article I'm somewhat writing this article based on! I actually presented in class on Hebdige..

[thatslapz]

You may find it helpful to bring up the concept of the "identity not." That is, people can often identify themselves by saying everything that they are not, but find it difficult to articulate what they are. As an example, you could ask someone what their style is and they may say "I'm not goth, definitely not punk..." and they'll go on.

People find it easier to frame their identity in the things they think they are not. So putting this into the context of the Japanese identity in relation to repro jeans, I think they realize that their identity is not American (unless you speak to a seriously disillusioned person), which puts them in a bit of a strange position. Here they are constructing this whole American style, but they are aware that it does not fit into their "traditional" identity. I mean I looked at the 45rpm lookbook, and it had distinct American framing and representation. If it weren't for the Japanese models I would think I was looking at a Ralph Lauren lookbook.

So there is a tension between the identity they want, which embodies the American values and lifestyles associated with the repro clothing, and the traditional identity that they carry as cultural baggage. The differentiation of the clothing (eg five pocket jeans) can then be seen as the negotiation of this tension.

[stagename]

hey thatslapz, do u have any articles related to the "identity not" ?

--

the following articles might be interesting in defining the link between identity, the self and consumption...

- Belk, Russell W. (1988), “Possessions and the Extended Self” in Journal of Consumer Research, 15 (September) p.139-161.

- Schouten, J. W. et McAlexander, J. H. (1995), «Subcultures of Consumption: An Ethnography of the New Bikers,» Journal of Consumer Research, 22 (1), 43-61.

+ anything on postmodernism and the fragmentation of the self, e.g. A. Fuat Firat and Alladi Venkatesh, Liberatory Postmodernism and the Reenchantment of Consumption, Journal of Consumer Research, Vol. 22, No. 3 (Dec., 1995), pp. 239-267

- on hebdige i came across a book called "subculture, the meaning of style", some of it on google books.

on our senses, consumption and its evolution

- Howes, David (2005) “Hyperaesthesia, or, the Sensual Logic of Late Capitalism”, in Empire of the Senses, David Howes (ed), Berg: Oxford.

i'm interested in reading the resulting paper! ;P

[rnrswitch]

hey thatslapz, do u have any articles related to the "identity not" ?

--

the following articles might be interesting in defining the link between identity, the self and consumption...

- Belk, Russell W. (1988), “Possessions and the Extended Self†in Journal of Consumer Research, 15 (September) p.139-161.

- Schouten, J. W. et McAlexander, J. H. (1995), «Subcultures of Consumption: An Ethnography of the New Bikers,» Journal of Consumer Research, 22 (1), 43-61.

+ anything on postmodernism and the fragmentation of the self, e.g. A. Fuat Firat and Alladi Venkatesh, Liberatory Postmodernism and the Reenchantment of Consumption, Journal of Consumer Research, Vol. 22, No. 3 (Dec., 1995), pp. 239-267

- on hebdige i came across a book called "subculture, the meaning of style", some of it on google books.

on our senses, consumption and its evolution

- Howes, David (2005) “Hyperaesthesia, or, the Sensual Logic of Late Capitalismâ€, in Empire of the Senses, David Howes (ed), Berg: Oxford.

i'm interested in reading the resulting paper! ;P

Dude, I need to get those articles, sounds like great reading!!!

[thatslapz]

hey thatslapz, do u have any articles related to the "identity not" ?

--

the following articles might be interesting in defining the link between identity, the self and consumption...

- Belk, Russell W. (1988), “Possessions and the Extended Self†in Journal of Consumer Research, 15 (September) p.139-161.

- Schouten, J. W. et McAlexander, J. H. (1995), «Subcultures of Consumption: An Ethnography of the New Bikers,» Journal of Consumer Research, 22 (1), 43-61.

+ anything on postmodernism and the fragmentation of the self, e.g. A. Fuat Firat and Alladi Venkatesh, Liberatory Postmodernism and the Reenchantment of Consumption, Journal of Consumer Research, Vol. 22, No. 3 (Dec., 1995), pp. 239-267

- on hebdige i came across a book called "subculture, the meaning of style", some of it on google books.

on our senses, consumption and its evolution

- Howes, David (2005) “Hyperaesthesia, or, the Sensual Logic of Late Capitalismâ€, in Empire of the Senses, David Howes (ed), Berg: Oxford.

i'm interested in reading the resulting paper! ;P

I'm sorry, I do not. I just learned about it through my professor/advisor. She is writing a textbook now and she mentions it in there. She is out of town now, but I can ask her if there are any articles when she gets back.

[TallyHo]

it's great to see a thread that raises these philosophical issues for discussion! (so great i thought i'd make my first post in about 1.5 years reading this forum)

Imaozedong - a few major points i don't think have been raised yet: if you are STRICTLY discussing "reproduction" jeans, then there is no "push and pull between imitation and innovation" as reproduction companies go to great lengths to precisely imitate old designs. if you simply used "japanese repro companies" in a looser sense to include those companies experimenting with heavier weight denims and different dyeing techniques, disregard this point. in either case, you'll want to consider the idea of appropriation (or "reinterpretation" as you said) in your "innovation vs imitation" discussion - in other words, how the japanese don't necessarily innovate or imitate, but make denim culture their own. i should note here that i don't think the japanese molded denim into something they like; rather, they like denim because its fading properties fit within their overarching aesthetic values (and repro companies formed when raw selvage denim was discontinued overseas). this follows directly from my next point...

i understand this is a "modernism and theory of fashion" class, but given your chosen subject, you need a strong understanding of japanese culture. there are many issues that could be raised (such as the idea of a tidy rebellion against prevailing traditional culture raised by rnrswitch), but the most pertinent to your paper is the wabi-sabi japanese aesthetic. you've probably heard that phrase before, but you'd do well to read up on it a bit. it is inextricably linked to japanese identity and their concept of beauty (which, in turn, is linked to fashion, no?). plus it is very clearly related to their love of denim.

hope this helps and you ace that final! i could recommend some books on japanese culture (took a few classes when i was in school), but it sounds like you've got plenty of reading already... if you're comfortable with it, you should post your paper on here when you're done. i would love to read it!

[stagename]

I'm sorry, I do not. I just learned about it through my professor/advisor. She is writing a textbook now and she mentions it in there. She is out of town now, but I can ask her if there are any articles when she gets back.

that wud be great thanks!

[D2K]

Whats that saying in Japan: The nail that sticks out gets hammered down?

Americans invented the jeans and the cuts, and the Japanese perfect it. Where is their original innovation?

get that saying from tokyo drift? xD

[lmaozedong]

you'll want to consider the idea of appropriation (or "reinterpretation" as you said) in your "innovation vs imitation" discussion - in other words, how the japanese don't necessarily innovate or imitate, but make denim culture their own. i should note here that i don't think the japanese molded denim into something they like; rather, they like denim because its fading properties fit within their overarching aesthetic values (and repro companies formed when raw selvage denim was discontinued overseas). this follows directly from my next point...

i understand this is a "modernism and theory of fashion" class, but given your chosen subject, you need a strong understanding of japanese culture. there are many issues that could be raised (such as the idea of a tidy rebellion against prevailing traditional culture raised by rnrswitch), but the most pertinent to your paper is the wabi-sabi japanese aesthetic. you've probably heard that phrase before, but you'd do well to read up on it a bit. it is inextricably linked to japanese identity and their concept of beauty (which, in turn, is linked to fashion, no?). plus it is very clearly related to their love of denim.

Thank you! Personally, I'm a little bit confused as to how the concept of appropriation is separate from the imitation vs. innovation topic--to me, it seems like the concept of appropriation is exactly the combination of these two concepts--imitation of the cut and innovation in adding specific details that makes the Japanese repro jean Japanese.

Following from this line of thought, I want to explore what the particular ways in which Japanese choose to make their denim special (with very high quality denim, special detailing, extreme high quality handiwork) say about Japanese culture. For example, the attention to detail for one I think says something about the Japanese identity, but what else?

Particularly I'm thinking about talking about what the specific ways in which the Japanese made repro denim their own say about the evolution of the identity of post-war Japan.

[horriblyjollyjinx]

I don't see any signs of Japanese liking repros because of WW2. That's just not it. I would rather say it is a romanticization of the 50s, just like for us whiteys.

There are a lot of exaggerations and myths about Japanese people. First of all, you treat Japanese people who like retro clothing different than people from the Western world, for no other reason than them being Japanese. Europeans and Americans do the exact same thing, but you don't think twice about it.

What is different though is that Japanese go to greater lengths within their area of interest, i.e. wearing all vintage clothing including original 40s Levi's which costs thousands of dollars.

I would say this is because of confuscianistic ideals that are still present in society.

But to a very large extent Japanese people are just the same as 'us'.

Workwear and vintage is a trend or style in Tokyo as well as in the West. There's plenty of bad style and stupid brands here(Tokyo) too, and magazines dictate what people buy here also.

Don't treat Japanese as another species, they're not. For example I've read people trying to explaing the long economic stagnation since the 90s with Japanese being 'different' and saying they're impossible to understand.

Everything about Japan can be understood by looking at their history. They follow the same logic as everyone else. They are not different or weird. If you think so, its because you choose to see only the differences. We are so much a like.

[horriblyjollyjinx]

Another question that's come up in my mind is why repros? Among all the American elements of fashion the Japanese could have chosen during the post-war period, what was the particular appeal of denim repros to the Japanese?

The Japanese have chosen ALL elements of American fashion. Repros and vintage is just one style among others.

They started making repros when the originals became too expensive. It's extremely simple.

[lmaozedong]

I don't see any signs of Japanese liking repros because of WW2. That's just not it. I would rather say it is a romanticization of the 50s, just like for us whiteys.

There are a lot of exaggerations and myths about Japanese people. First of all, you treat Japanese people who like retro clothing different than people from the Western world, for no other reason than them being Japanese. Europeans and Americans do the exact same thing, but you don't think twice about it.

What is different though is that Japanese go to greater lengths within their area of interest, i.e. wearing all vintage clothing including original 40s Levi's which costs thousands of dollars.

I would say this is because of confuscianistic ideals that are still present in society.

But to a very large extent Japanese people are just the same as 'us'.

Workwear and vintage is a trend or style in Tokyo as well as in the West. There's plenty of bad style and stupid brands here(Tokyo) too, and magazines dictate what people buy here also.

Don't treat Japanese as another species, they're not. For example I've read people trying to explaing the long economic stagnation since the 90s with Japanese being 'different' and saying they're impossible to understand.

Everything about Japan can be understood by looking at their history. They follow the same logic as everyone else. They are not different or weird. If you think so, its because you choose to see only the differences. We are so much a like.

I think you're taking everything the wrong way. No one is saying that Japanese people are aliens that cannot be understood, but to say that Japanese and American cultures are identical and that everything is exactly the same as far as clothing trends and cultural values go is ludicrous. Clearly if I walk around in Tokyo and look at people's clothing, its definitely going to be different than what I would see walking around in New York. These differences not only speak to geographic separation but a difference in cultures and history as well. I could write the same paper about a trend in America, like, say, hipsters, and what that says about American culture and values and analyze it in a similar manner.

As far as repros and WWII goes, I myself am not sure of the connection. However, what causes the Japanese to romanticize the 1950s in AMERICA? What is the particular appeal of the 1950s? If you say the Japanese have chosen ALL elements of American fashion, I'm not sure I necessarily buy that. Perhaps I'm not

Furthermore, the repros I'm talking about (imitating cut, but using their own details like changing the weight of the denim, etc.) are not exact copies of the originals. It doesn't seem like it would be all that much harder to try and copy the original completely, and if I'm not mistaken, that's what they originally did--however, as the repro has developed, it has taken on certain ways in which it distinguishes itself from the original. I repeat--what values lie behind these differences?

Saying that Americans and Japanese are exactly alike is far too simplistic--I'm sure the human thought process that drives the motivations (like your example of fashion magazines, and by extension the concept of dressing in a certain, set way determined by those around you driving the fashion market) are similar, however, the cultural aesthetics and values are most certainly different in some ways.

[horriblyjollyjinx]

I think you're taking everything the wrong way. No one is saying that Japanese people are aliens that cannot be understood, but to say that Japanese and American cultures are identical and that everything is exactly the same as far as clothing trends and cultural values go is ludicrous. Clearly if I walk around in Tokyo and look at people's clothing, its definitely going to be different than what I would see walking around in New York. These differences not only speak to geographic separation but a difference in cultures and history as well. I could write the same paper about a trend in America, like, say, hipsters, and what that says about American culture and values and analyze it in a similar manner.

I haven't read through the thread or your original post completely to be honest so it's certainly possible that I got something wrong. Certainly people dress differently in Japan and the US. I never said anything else. What I'm saying is that there is not a specific trait in the Japanese personality that makes them like repros nor is there any deeper significance in them liking vintage American style.

You're certainly free to discuss why Japanese like certain things, but if it's going to be done by singling them out from every other ethnicity that also like this thing, it's going to tick me off a little.

What I feel is that this thread is built on the myth of the Japanese personality being so very essentially different, following different rules and logic than other people.

As far as repros and WWII goes, I myself am not sure of the connection. However, what causes the Japanese to romanticize the 1950s in AMERICA? What is the particular appeal of the 1950s? If you say the Japanese have chosen ALL elements of American fashion, I'm not sure I necessarily buy that. Perhaps I'm not

America has been the cultural center of the world for much of the 20th century. The 50s had rock n roll and the world's first youth movement. There's plenty of reasons to choose American style, but there are also those who prefer European style.

Pretty much all American styles are present here. Hiphop/bboy, true religion type style, rasta style, hippie style etc. The 50s was not singled out.

What I want to say is that American style has been imported to pretty much every part of the world since America is, and this is a fact, the cultural center of the world. It is NOT Paris or London or Europe in general.

Furthermore, the repros I'm talking about (imitating cut, but using their own details like changing the weight of the denim, etc.) are not exact copies of the originals. It doesn't seem like it would be all that much harder to try and copy the original completely, and if I'm not mistaken, that's what they originally did--however, as the repro has developed, it has taken on certain ways in which it distinguishes itself from the original. I repeat--what values lie behind these differences?

Well, I would think that the modifications of the original designs are up to the individual designers, not the Japanese society. Studio D'Artisan chose to use pigs in their design, how to you argue that's Japanese?

[lmaozedong]

What I'm saying is that there is not a specific trait in the Japanese personality that makes them like repros nor is there any deeper significance in them liking vintage American style.

You're certainly free to discuss why Japanese like certain things, but if it's going to be done by singling them out from every other ethnicity that also like this thing, it's going to tick me off a little.

This may be a difference of opinion, but I feel there is always a deeper meaning behind why certain trends exist in certain places. I would also go on to say that even if the trends are the same in different places, the reason why those trends stick in those places are also different. For example, when retro 1950's style exists in the U.S., it can be seen as a certain nostalgia for a different time. When this trend is transported into Japan, however, this reasoning no longer follows--how can the Japanese feel nostalgia for a time that never existed in their country? If, as you are saying the repro trend is just the transportation of an American style into Japan, it also takes on significance in that the Japanese are imitating American styles.

The reason why I find this particular trend interesting as well is because it is the style that existed in the immediate post-WWII period, so I can only assume that the kind of repro jeans that the Japanese wear are similar to those American soldiers would have worn in their off-times in Japan. I don't know if this has particular significance, but it's interesting to note.

What I feel is that this thread is built on the myth of the Japanese personality being so very essentially different, following different rules and logic than other people.

I'm not necessarily saying that the Japanese are ESSENTIALLY different--however, their cultural values are certainly different in some ways and I think that certain parts of repro jeans can speak to that difference.

Pretty much all American styles are present here. Hiphop/bboy, true religion type style, rasta style, hippie style etc. The 50s was not singled out.

I'm sure many different American styles exist in Japan, but I don't think all of them do, and I'm curious as to why the 50s is one particular one that took hold. In my perception, I feel like the amount to which repro jeans have pervaded Japanese style is even beyond the equivalent trend in the U.S. Why?

Well, I would think that the modifications of the original designs are up to the individual designers, not the Japanese society. Studio D'Artisan chose to use pigs in their design, how to you argue that's Japanese?

It is up to the individual designers, but they are chosen to appeal to the Japanese, and so I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the decisions that designers make that take hold and become popular speak to certain things that are Japanese. I'm not saying you can take a certain back pocket stitching and say THIS IS JAPANESE, but I do think that you can say that Japanese are detail-oriented people, and thus find value in the subtle changes that repro designers make.