Selvedge Denim

[hairpolice]

Do Loomstate jeans fall into the selvedge category?

[hahnstch]

as far as i'm concerned, loomstate doesn't produce any selvage jeans. that picture of zoo york was taken from in4mants.com, i saw it too at zoo york's official website, not sure whether any retailer has started selling

[takashi]

Sorry for the delay -- there have been some distractions here in London lately (!), and somehow selvege denim hasn't been very high on my priority list for a couple of weeks.

Here are a few pix of the Samurai S510XX-AI as promised. Apologies in advance for the poor photography:

The package from Japan:

The box:

The contents:

The labels:

A view of the buttons with Japanese 'mon' symbols, and the indigo-dyer's hand-stamp:

To follow (if I can get around to it): some photos of the Iron Works' Tom Boy (not modelled by my girlfriend, unfortunately...), and some Yen Jeans (maybe the left-hand twill 115's would be of interest).

Best,

takashi

Edited by takashi on Aug 4, 2005 at 05:21 AM

[trinket]

thanks for the samurai pics.

they look awesome!

_trinket

[ringring]

I really enjoyed those photos. Thanks a lot. I love the way you're arrange the jeans to show the tags, pocket bag print etc - and the mats as a background is nice touch too.

[urban sprawl]

takashi:

very nice. very nice ai!!! very slubby or is it a very loose weave? cant really figure it out. how heavy?

[takashi]

Hi urban sprawl.

Let's see.. it's 17oz / sq yard. As to your other questions, I'm not sure. I can try to post a close-up photo and maybe you could tell me...

Best, -- takashi

[psyiko]

does that differentiation in the weave mean its double ringspun? because since the beginning ive been hearding the people in this forum talking about ringspun and double ringspun, and their verbal discriptions have never really done it for me. could someone post pics on what the different weaves look like?

[Lau_z]

Hey folks...Im a long time reader (I started last night) and first time post-er (I just registered 2 minutes ago)...so please bear with me.

First of all...I thought I loved denim until I read what you guys wrote and...Im an embarassment in terms of my denim knowledge, but I truly enjoy reading what you guys write.

My collection is way too commercial and trendy and you guys now got me thinking of saving some real coin for some real quality denim.

I do have some questions (first of all...I love the dialogue between ring, urban and whiskey)...

I just bought a pair of Nudies Regular Ralf...and I am paranoid about not getting a great wash and messing them up. I mean...they talk about not getting them wet, but how careful do you really need to be? Im here up in Toronto and recently its been ridiculously humid or rainy, so I havent worn them as much as I want to. Should I just rough it out?

I also wanted to know about washing raw selvage denim. Do all jeans more or less start as raw denim? I mean...I know Im supposed to wait for like 6 months before the first wash, but...lets say I did wash them in the same way that I wash my other jeans....do they really bleed to the point where they will look like my other jeans after 1 wash? And after consequent washes...will they get much much whiter? I just wanna know, just in case I need to wash these jeans on the regular...like I can totally live with jeans that look like my other distressed jeans (paper denim, seven, diesel, rock and republic)...but I dont want them to be any lighter than that...at least not for a while.

I dont know if this question made any sense, but I look forward to hearing from you guys and maybe someday when confident and knowledgeable enough...contributing to this.

Keep up the good work fellas

[ringring]

Those Samurai's look like a very slubby tight ring-ring weave. The weft yarns are particularly varied in size and colour.

does that differentiation in the weave mean its double ringspun?

Double ringspun just means that ringspun yarn is used for both warp and weft (horizontal and vertical yarns of a loom).

I just bought a pair of Nudies Regular Ralf...and I am paranoid about not getting a great wash and messing them up. I mean...they talk about not getting them wet, but how careful do you really need to be?

Welcome Lau. Don't worry about getting them wet. You don't need to be careful. You can still get great fading after the jeans have been washed. In fact you may find you get better and sharper crease marks after getting them wet - particularly if you allow them to dry on your body. Do a search for 'denim washing' - it's been discussed quite a lot on here. But there are multiple reasons why it's OK to wash dry denim. (in short: comfort, shrinkage, hygiene - plus the fact you can create great wear marks regardless).

Do all jeans more or less start as raw denim?

Yes.

I know Im supposed to wait for like 6 months before the first wash, but...lets say I did wash them in the same way that I wash my other jeans....do they really bleed to the point where they will look like my other jeans after 1 wash?

The 6 month mark is just a commonly quoted guideline. It really depends how much wear and tear you subject your jeans through and what you think is 'enough'. IMO it takes more than one wash to get great contrasts showing on jeans.

If you need to wash them, and keep them dark, then turn them inside out and do cold soaks with a mild soap solution, then rinse cold and dry naturally. A no-phosphates-no-enzymes, PH neutral pure vegetable (Castille) soap works well if you're being anal. Either that, or dry clean.

Edited by ringring on Aug 2, 2005 at 12:28 AM

[Lau_z]

hmmm...OK...so why dont more companies make raw denim is it is essentially cheaper to make (no distressing/fading process)? I dont fully understand, if it is desirable, why doesnt everyone make it? I know some people are too lazy to wear their jeans in, but I mean...technically it should cost even less to produce!!!

And as for the 1 wash...I check out the Nudie Websites, etc.. and it looks like after 1 wash...these jeans look like my pre-treated paper denims...Im afraid that wash number 2 would make them bleached white.

Thanks for the prompt reply...and I will work my nudies in a bit more.

P.S. Im curious to hear from all of you...what is your favorite jean...PERIOD??? I know everyone quotes all the vintage stuff...and I appreciate the history...but how about you be completely SUBJECTIVE and tell me...your favorite jean because of fit, colour, look, comfort, quality..etc...

You guys really rock!!

Thanks again!!

[Lau_z]

Oh...an addition to my washing question... or more information about what Im sorta curious about... My paper denims dont really lose much colour with each subsequent wash... yet wash 1 one the nudie sites seem to go from DARK DARK INDIGO...to the washes you see every day on the street...thats why I kinda was thinking that this RAW denim was different from the other denim that doesnt seem to lose the indigo dye at ALL over its life time. Sorry I got a lot of questions and I really want these jeans to turn out really nice.

[ringring]

so why dont more companies make raw denim is it is essentially cheaper to make (no distressing/fading process)? I dont fully understand, if it is desirable, why doesnt everyone make it? I know some people are too lazy to wear their jeans in, but I mean...technically it should cost even less to produce!!!

Dry denim is a niche market. Not many people like all the 'problems' that go with dry jeans, ie. shrinkage, crocking/smurfing, stiffness, unwashed smells...all those inconveniences are rite-of-passage to denim geeks but insufferable to the majority of wearers. For denim geeks, the selvedge is like a secret handshake, a knowing wink to fellow denim geeks that bonds them together in the knowledge that they've made the journey through discomfort and smell to get their perfect fades.

Just read all the questions about dry denim on here - many people want something ready to go straight off the shelf. No questions, no wearing in, no hassle...plus, many people would prefer to wear lighter coloured jeans from the outset. Dry denim is a tiny part of the global jeans market for these reasons, and whilst it's popularity may increase, it will probably remain a niche player.

And as for the 1 wash...I check out the Nudie Websites, etc.. and it looks like after 1 wash...these jeans look like my pre-treated paper denims...Im afraid that wash number 2 would make them bleached white.

Don't worry. It's not going to happen. Check out an earlier post in this thread with links to various Denim Galleries. You'll see the way denim changes over time and washing.

My paper denims dont really lose much colour with each subsequent wash... yet wash 1 one the nudie sites seem to go from DARK DARK INDIGO...to the washes you see every day on the street...thats why I kinda was thinking that this RAW denim was different from the other denim that doesnt seem to lose the indigo dye at ALL over its life time.

Denim that has been heavily treated like PDC's has gone through several processes that strip much of the indigo off the fabric (eg. sandpapering, bleach, stonewashing, several rinse washes etc). Much of the indigo has been removed, so that there's less to crock off onto you and your surroundings.

To get a pair of dry jeans a very light blue shade will take usually a lot of washing. Not just one wash.

Edited by ringring on Aug 2, 2005 at 12:35 AM

[Guest Berget__]

Raw denim only lose a lot of color the first wash. So if you wear your Nudies for about six months and then wash them you'll probably see a big difference in color...but the next wash will not cause the denim to lose as much color as the first wash. you'll hardly see a difference at all. it will take YEARS for dry denim to go all white...

I aint gotta get money man money get me

[Lau_z]

Thanks fellas, appreciate the help.

Still waiting to hear about your favorites...

[andewhall]

Cool man, those Samurai's look really nice. I like the shots of the packagaing too. Thanks man. Those Zoo York's look interesting too, using the selvage on the yoke. I haven't seen that very often.

[takashi]

Mmm.. yes i agree with ringring. Rain, the occasional spill, etc won't adversely affect the condition of dry rigid denim. I have even dumped an entire cup of green tea in my lap with no ill effects (on the jeans, anyway...). Wearing dry denim for a long time creates a slightly shiny surface as abrasion and the oil from your hands, etc, work into the denim. This surface tends to resist stains and splashes. The real enemies of indigo are soap, hot water, and commercial laundry machines.

Personally I don't recommend the 'wear them in the bathtub and let them dry on you' approach to breaking in jeans, although many (including the Levi Strauss company iteslf) advocate it. Wet denim is quite easy to stretch if you put a reasonable amount of force into it. Depending on how physical you get with your wet jeans on, you may semi-permanently 'bag out' the knees and the seat to a greater extent than you would like. Just hang them up.

-- takashi

[gunpwdr]

They might as well call this board the Superdrydenim board.

Lau... I'm a recent convert. Well maybe convert isn't the right word, but I hail from a skate/punk background, so dark (namely black) jeans have always been a staple in my closet. At a certain point, I moved away from skate brands (used to have 3 pairs of Stussy jeans in the early 90's) to more Euro brands (read: Diesel/Helmut).

Being that I'm not an uber-denimhead (although I do only wear jeans when not wearing work clothes), I usually buy 2 pairs of jeans every 2-3 years. Well, it was that time again this year and I went looking for jeans... only to find that the market had been flooded with what I call "Hollywood denim" - i.e. stuff that celebrities wore and seemed to mostly hail from California. I had a hard time sifting through the glut of denim brands... but I did know I wanted something dark, not processed (distressed), and clean.

My (sometimes zealous) research led me to Nudie and I ended up getting the dry RR. Fact of the matter is I couldn't be happier with them. They're clean, cut just how I like my jeans, and I love the investment needed to nurture these jeans. It takes that obsessive jeans mindset to a new level. If I had to nitpick, it would be that I might have liked the stitching in two colors rather than just the bright orange.

I'm just going through the process of "aging" them now. I'm one month into it and hope to wear these for many years to come. For other dry RR owners... I know the waist stretches through wear and will shrink slightly (3%?) after the 1st wash. Would you say the waist ends up larger or smaller than its shipping size after the process? I normally wear a 31 in Diesels (and trousers) but ended up with a size 30 dry RR... and think I could have stood to go up one size. Might be an excuse to get a second pair.

-Don

[kyl]

If the jeans have a generally red (or other coloured) stitched line on the outside seam, does that make them selvedge?

[Geowu]

not necessarily. here is selvedge/selvage:

and here is non-selvage (open edge with overlock stitching):

[ringring]

If the jeans have a generally red (or other coloured) stitched line on the outside seam, does that make them selvedge?

If it's a stitched line then no, it's not selvedge. Selvedge should look like the photos above (and on other pages of this thread). It's a clean, woven edge. The coloured stripe, if present, is woven in and not stitched in.

[Serge d Nimes]

Lemmie guess:

5 EP, Uliqlo

Levi's

Carpe Denim!

[kremedla]

i think we all played that game

raise your hands if you got the right answer...

on a different note, for those in london liberty's is pushing denim like mad- nudies, rag and bone, apc- not on sale but worth a look and feel-

[berent]

@serge: I go with you for that non selvage one, the stitching looks the same as a pair of levi's I own.

[Paul T]

kyl, the easiest way to think about it is that selvedge is short for "self edge" - ie the denim doens't need extra stitching to stop it unravelling. The pictures above should show the difference clearly. If there's an overstich, to stop the denim unravelling, it's not selvedge. The coloured lines were originally introduced so that the mills who produced the denim (for instance Cone, who made denim for both Lee and Levi's) could differentiate the denim they were sending to different clients.

[sweet orr]

Quote:

Mmm.. yes i agree with ringring. Rain, the occasional spill, etc won't adversely affect the condition of dry rigid denim. I have even dumped an entire cup of green tea in my lap with no ill effects (on the jeans, anyway...). Wearing dry denim for a long time creates a slightly shiny surface as abrasion and the oil from your hands, etc, work into the denim. This surface tends to resist stains and splashes. The real enemies of indigo are soap, hot water, and commercial laundry machines.

Personally I don't recommend the 'wear them in the bathtub and let them dry on you' approach to breaking in jeans, although many (including the Levi Strauss company iteslf) advocate it. Wet denim is quite easy to stretch if you put a reasonable amount of force into it. Depending on how physical you get with your wet jeans on, you may semi-permanently 'bag out' the knees and the seat to a greater extent than you would like. Just hang them up.

-- takashi

--- Original message by takashi on Aug 2, 2005 04:42 AM

I ONLY USE THE SHRINK WHILE YOU WEAR METHOD IF I AM TRYING TO RESTRICT THE AMOUNT OF SHRINKAGE THAT I WANT. I DO THIS WHEN IM SHRINKING A JEAN THAT ALREADY FITS PRETTY GOOD RIGID, AND I DONT WANT IT TO BECOME TOO SMALL AFTER THE FIRST WASH. MOST OF THE REASON I DO THIS IS TO JUST REMOVE THE STARCH FROM THE JEAN. IF THE STARCH FROM THE RIGID FABRIC STAYS IN THE JEAN WHILE YOU WEAR IT, THE STARCH CAUSES HOLES ALOT FASTER THAN WHEN ITS REMOVED. STARCH AND SWEAT/OILS CREATE WIERD HOLES BEHIND THE KNEES, ON THE KNEES AND IN THE CROTCH PRETTY QUICKLY.

I DONT TOTALLY AGREE WITH NO WASHING AT ALL TO GET THE HIGHEST AMOUNT OF CONTRAST. IVE BROKEN IN ALOT OF RIGID JEANS WITHOUT RINSING THEM FIRST AND DRYCLEANING ONLY, AND FOUND THEM TO FALL APART FASTER. ALSO, YOU GET A VERY LIMITED RANGE OF COLOR IN YOUR CONTRAST THIS WAY, AND YOUR JEANS ALWAYS LOOK YELLOWISH /GREEN CASTED.YOU DONT GET TO SEE HOW NICE THE INDIGO COLOR OF THE FABRIC IS.

I FOUND THAT THE BEST METHOD IS TO REMOVE THE STARCH /SHRINK THE JEAN FIRST, WEAR THE JEAN FOR AS LONG AS YOU CAN STAND IT WITHOUT WASHING IT, AND TO WASH IT PERIODICALLY AFTER THAT (ONCE EVERY 3 MONTHS OR SO) INSIDE OUT ON A GENTLE CYCLE WITH MILD DETERGENT. THE JEAN WILL GET MORE COLOR SHIFTING, BRIGHTER WHITES AND HIGHER CONTRAST BEHIND THE KNEES, ON THE WHISKERS ETC.. YOU ALSO GET MORE "DRAW" ON THE HEMS, SEAMS AND TRACKS ON THE SIDE.

IVE ALSO FOUND THAT THE FABRIC ON THE PAIRS THAT I WASH PERIODICALLY REAMINS STRONGER AND I GET LESS HOLES.

sweet-orr

[andewhall]

Technically cotton is stronger when it is wet. So if you ever find yourself in a burning building, wet the sheets from the bed and climb down them to safety, you will have a better chance of the sheets not breaking

[M.O.A]

^^^ill keep that in mind

[ringring]

"Most of the reason i do this is to just remove the starch from the jean. If the starch from the rigid fabric stays in the jean while you wear it, the starch causes holes a lot faster than when its removed. Starch and sweat/oils create weird holes behind the knees, on the knees and in the crotch pretty quickly. "

Starch+Sweat = corrosive effect on cotton? That's an interesting anecdote and the only time I've heard of this phenomenon. I'd always thought that starch+sweat was a pretty harmless cocktail, after all, if it can cause holes in denim then surely it would also have a detrimental effect on your skin?

From my observations with starched jeans, the holes appear at stress points because the extra stiffness makes the jeans less flexible, exaggerating existing stress points - particularly the crotch where there's already a lot of stiffness from the multiple layers on the seams combined with lots of body movement. It's kind of like bending a twig. The twig will bend where it is flexible and snap at the point where it's stiff.

I've not seen many holes behind the knee, even on jeans that have been worn 1-5 years before washing. And in all those online denim galleries, I don't recall many (any?) holes behind the knee. I learn something every day. Thanks.

I totally agree with you that many times washed jeans outlast dry jeans (so much for selvedge being stronger huh?). eg. the pic of those 10 year old Marlboro jeans that were posted recently.

Maybe it's your type of sweat? I know that some people can cause high carbon tool steels to rust just by touching them and I've even heard that some people can cause guitar strings to rust simply from the sweat off their fingers.

[sweet orr]

Quote:

"Most of the reason i do this is to just remove the starch from the jean. If the starch from the rigid fabric stays in the jean while you wear it, the starch causes holes a lot faster than when its removed. Starch and sweat/oils create weird holes behind the knees, on the knees and in the crotch pretty quickly. "

Starch+Sweat = corrosive effect on cotton? That's an interesting anecdote and the only time I've heard of this phenomenon. I'd always thought that starch+sweat was a pretty harmless cocktail, after all, if it can cause holes in denim then surely it would also have a detrimental effect on your skin?

From my observations with starched jeans, the holes appear at stress points because the extra stiffness makes the jeans less flexible, exaggerating existing stress points - particularly the crotch where there's already a lot of stiffness from the multiple layers on the seams combined with lots of body movement. It's kind of like bending a twig. The twig will bend where it is flexible and snap at the point where it's stiff.

I've not seen many holes behind the knee, even on jeans that have been worn 1-5 years before washing. And in all those online denim galleries, I don't recall many (any?) holes behind the knee. I learn something every day. Thanks.

I totally agree with you that many times washed jeans outlast dry jeans (so much for selvedge being stronger huh?). eg. the pic of those 10 year old Marlboro jeans that were posted recently.

Maybe it's your type of sweat? I know that some people can cause high carbon tool steels to rust just by touching them and I've even heard that some people can cause guitar strings to rust simply from the sweat off their fingers.

--- Original message by ringring on Aug 3, 2005 03:13 AM

its from the starch. its not "toxic", the starch just dries out the cotton fibres, and sweat /oil (non ph balanced chemicals) weakens them. the water cleans the starch out and allows the cotton fibres to stay strong for a longer time. the reason starch is applied to the weaving yarns is to make them stiff and easy to weave with.

its applied after its woven again so that the fabric remains stiffer so that its easier to cut in production. if youve ever touched indigo yarns before they are woven at a mill, you will see that they are extremely stiff.

if i had a camera here i could show you at least 5 pairs of jeans ive worn in with "starch" holes behind the knees, at the crotch next to pairs ive washed first. this has nothing to do with selvedge or non selvedge denim.

obviously the starch doesnt create the holes, it just makes your jeans fall apart faster. i'm not claiming that "magical" starch particles on my jeans make holes all by themselves, the starch just weakens the fibres.

sweet-orr