Selvedge Denim

[adsurgo]

Quote:

Lemmie guess:

5 EP, Uliqlo

Levi's

--- Original message by Serge d Nimes on Aug 2, 2005 12:18 PM

i think its 45rpm, lee, levis.

[johninger]

Does anyone know if there are any other mills in the world who still run their shuttle looms.

I only know, Kaihara, Kurabo, Nisshinbo, Cone (rumours of itochu)

Anyone know...

[Geowu]

There were many discussions here about selvage mills. I don't know the name of the companies but there probably are some in Spain and Italy, maybe they use modern made shuttle-looms?

[johninger]

Can anyone know if there is any companies outside Japan/US that weave denim using old looms?

[maurizio]

Yes.....we are the only one weaving factory with very old shouttle looms.

Our name is Denimarea ( Italy ) Web site is still under construction and will be up on Jan 06.

Maurizio

[wild_whiskey]

Quote:

Quote:

Lemmie guess:

5 EP, Uliqlo

Levi's

--- Original message by Serge d Nimes on Aug 2, 2005 12:18 PM

i think its 45rpm, lee, levis.

--- Original message by adsurgo on Sep 18, 2005 08:37 PM

I think its 5EP, Sugarcane, Levi's

[berent]

Upper left 5EP

Lower Levi's

Curious about the upper right, yellow chainstitsh hem, with greenline selvage. Really have no idea.

[juvenile29]

why isnt anybody talking about RMC red monkeys?? Theyre one of the hottest jeans on the market.. Theyre also pretty rare.

Edited by juvenile29 on Feb 5, 2006 at 03:56 PM

[Handlethevibe]

^lol.

[minya]

Haha.

Textbook example of how NOT to bump an old thread.

[stuff586]

HELP needed to settle an argument.

Can someone tell me if there are different types of Denim, as in different weaves.

Or is demin always exactly the same weave, only changing the weight and color?

Also, is there a classic denim weave I.E one which has been used for many years?

I would much appreciate it if someone could point me to a website which shows you different weaves of denim.

Thanks

stuff586

[ringring]

There are several common denim weaves:

Twill: this is the typical weave that gives diagonal lines. The twill effect is produced by the moving one yarn space to the right of each successive weft yarn.

3x1 - the classic denim weave. 3 over x 1 under. Can be right hand or left hand (look at the diagonal lines - the direction to which they point upwards is 'right-hand' or 'left-hand'.

2x1 - similar to above. 2 over x 1 under. Can be right hand or left hand.

Broken Twill - where the direction of the twill changes.

Plain weave - ie. 1x1 or 2x2 (hopsack)

[frideswide]

ringring, what do you imagine the "6x6" refers to on some of the pairs of these jeans?

http://www.fabfour.co.jp/netshop/babe/showcase/list_btm001.html

For example on the 5010XX 6x6 superslims. From the text it seem it is something to do with the weave, but I can't figure out just what.

[horriblyjollyjinx]

Quote:

ringring, what do you imagine the "6x6" refers to on some of the pairs of these jeans?

http://www.fabfour.co.jp/netshop/babe/showcase/list_btm001.html

For example on the 5010XX 6x6 superslims. From the text it seem it is something to do with the weave, but I can't figure out just what.

--- Original message by frideswide on Mar 17, 2006 07:55 AM

I was going to ask the exact same thing.

dontcaretoomuchforcrap CANT SKATE!!

[LetsGetSerious]

terrific thread, thanks for everyones input

[__3xL]

Loomstate ROCK !! ( authentic ones )

there now you have ERRYONE'S INPUT !!

[Neilfuji]

well said....they have lost there way

[__3xL]

Kaihara does their denim so well I would think they still have old looms as well as computerized ones .

they know their shit guys ...

yep

[renski]

maybe someone can help me out...what is the difference between left hand/right hand twill?

[adsurgo]

twill is characterized by a diagonal rib generally running upward from left to right (right hand twill). Left hand twill (traditional denim weave) has the diagonal rib running upward from right to left. Left hand twill is softer to the touch as well.

[moonbomb]

I don't know if this is answered later in the the thread but thought I would jump in... Authentic selvedge denim is woven on shuttle looms which generally produce narrower goods (usually 29" wide) vs. wide goods on modern projectile looms which are more "efficient" where goods usually range up to 60" wide. Because the goods are narrow, they need the selvedge edge to maintain the integrity of the fabric. Some mills have produced modern "fake" selvedge by creating the selvedge edge on wide width goods woven on projectile looms.

Cost = time=material=qauntity/demand. Shuttle looms are slower and weave narrower goods. They take longer and produce less fabric. Shuttle looms are also more rare and put less product out into the market. Narrow goods are not as efficient for cutting the patterns. The higher usage, more yardage of fabric (wide goods will avg just under 2 yards for a men's jean while a selvedge denim will need a little over 3 yards to make the same jean), greater time: increase cost.

A real expert can tell shuttle loom fabric from projectile loom fabric because of the inconsistencies. The inconsistencies which modern technology sought to eliminate provide the character and variability in the selvedge denim that modern denims lack. Because they are narrow, the sanforizing/finishing on the fabric is not as effective on wider goods - so twisting of the seams often occur. The uniqueness and craftmanship necessary to run a shuttle loom efficiently add to its inherent value.

Levi's WWII jean had painted arcuates to conserve thread during wartime as an arcuate was seen as decorative, not functional. I believe they created a stencil that looked like the stitches and brushed over it in yellow/gold paint. Levi's did a reissue of the jean in a limited run with the painted back arcuates I believe in the late 90's/early 2000's....

[tweeds]

moonbomb - thanks for posting!

i do have a thing with your cost = time = material = quantity/demand equation though; today there are far greater advances in technology with regards to shuttle looms and narrow selvedge can be made for far less cost than used to be. the implication is that selvedge is no longer a tell-tale mark of quality and time. also, unless you are a truly crazy expert, i doubt if one can tellt he differences between shuttle loom and projectile (jet) loomed denim. certainly there are differences between good and not-so-good denim, but one cannot automatically say that the good denim is shuttle loomed, and the not-so-good jet loomed.

p/s - to the rest, out of respect to this thread (and to the members who have contributed so much good shit to it) i think we should keep it clean.

[moonbomb]

tweedles - i agree with your points but i guess in my post i did not explain myself clearly enough. i was in no way trying to state that all selvedge is better or more expensive than its modern brother - nor was i saying selvedge alone is an indicator of greater quality..... nor was i saying jet-loomed fabric is not as good as shuttle loomed. i have designed in both and all types of denim - and fabric is a starting point for a pair of jeans and not by any means a sole indicator of "goodness."

i was simply providing my thoughts on why authentic, shuttle loom selvedge denim is valuated by people as it is and costs more. the act of creating the fabric on shuttlelooms with its added manual operational component is what makes the denim special. different people have different measures of value. is a machine knit sweater with its smooth, consistent knit "better" than a hand knit sweater of the same yarn that might be a little lumpy here and there? depends on what you as an individual value.

i am a fan of shuttle loom denim because of the craftsmanship involved, because it takes longer to weave, because it does not quite perform as well as its modern equivalent but it's more human - just as I would rather ride an old single carb triumph motorcycle from the 60's than the latest, faster, newer rocket suzuki.

it would be curious to see if people on this list could tell the difference - i honestly feel like I can tell denim from shuttle looms vs projectile - inconsistencies which are "manufactured" by technology always seem to look, feel a little different - mock ring yarns vs ring for example.... and the differences become mroe apparent with wear and time.

i am new here and have simply been reading for the past few weeks... i finally decided to post on the spur of the moment... i am not sure what your p/s means - i definitely did not want to piss anyone off - so if i did, i apologize.

[tweeds]

moonbomb, no worries. i was referring to the others who posted in response to your post...and whose posts i had to delete in order to keep the thread clean.

i appreciate that you took the effort to type that out.

also, yes you are right, definitely with wear and time the differences in quality will stand out - but in a head to head touch test when newly woven, only those who have worked with denim for years can separate one from the other. believe me, i too enjoy my narrow loomed selvedge as much as the next forum member, but i think often the humble redline is overly romanticised.

you mentioned you have designed and worked with denim, that interests me. out of curiosity, which company are you affiliated to?

and i've completely forgotten to say - welcome to superfuture.

[msz_karen]

im sorrybut what is the difference between raw denim and selvedge denim when they feel exactly the same? and i know when you wash raw denim it looks totally different and feels different. but how about when washing rigid selvedge denim? will it feel any different and look any different? how can you tell the two apart if it wasnt stated its selvedge or raw denim?

[lilodxd]

im sorrybut what is the difference between raw denim and selvedge denim when they feel exactly the same? and i know when you wash raw denim it looks totally different and feels different. but how about when washing rigid selvedge denim? will it feel any different and look any different? how can you tell the two apart if it wasnt stated its selvedge or raw denim?

raw denim is unwashed, rigid denim. selvedge denim is woven on shuttle looms. denim can be both raw & selvedge; it's not necessarily one or the other. and how you can tell if it's selvedge... look at the inside hem. should look something like this:

[aeonflux]

Hi,

On a shopping trip to my favorite old warehouse of fabric outside of Baltimore, I found a nice bolt of 38-39" wide selvage denim. I think its left hand twill, and it has a slubbly blue line running through the edges. It was quite dusty when pulled from the rack. It looked like it had been there quite a while (the store is over 50 years old). Weight seems like 10 oz... its stiff and dark dark blue.

My question is, I've seen some Wrangler jackets as being made of blue selvage demin from 1961-63... does anyone know if this could be from about the same time period based on the width?

Thanks in advance! (will post pics a little later today)

[SEDUCTION_INC]

Evisu more high end stuff from what i understand is true selvedge denim and the more mainstream readily available is not true style selvage but more massed produced

[fndmybetterhalf]

da fuck? we know that...

[SEDUCTION_INC]

im glad you know that its called contribution no matter who knows what try contributing