New developments in the Levi's vs Japanese repros story

[Raijin-Fujin]

If I was a major Levis Stockholder (which of course I am not... and I believe it is still a privately held company anyways) my next step after getting all these companies to stop with arcs and tabs would be to start offering licenses to them.. $.25 a shot for doing nothing, Levis would rake in some major easy cash... and it's not like these high end brands really affect Levis' bottom line... just a thought..

[jooles]

the real question is how does US law crossover to Japan

I'm qualified in the UK, but I'm being sent to Tokyo soon. I'll try to find out what's up, but I assume Japan is a signatory under one of the international copyright treaties.

[indigo_junkie]

I don't see any kind of similarity between say, the samurai arcuate and the Levis one. It's not a blatant imitation like say, Fullcount, or the old Flathead arcuate. It's like saying the Holden lion is a blatant rip-off of the Peugeot lion. The red tab, I understand, but to say no to any colour tab? what the? Why don't they start suing over the use of copper rivets?

[Pandemonium]

^^Haha, I wouldn't mention Australian brands that are domesticated for use overseas (eg. Holden -> Vauxhall), but that's not the point here.

I don't believe there is a case available for Levi's in terms of the five pocket jean/dungaree, solely due to the fact that as it stands, the idea is a meme. Patenting/copyrighting a meme is akin to monopolising the entire industry, however this is just not economically viable for both the owners of the patent/copyright. Once it is able to be utilised by others, especially in the mass market, it is impossible to claim as a patent - the sole idea of a patent is to protect it, thus they would have to seek and track down all companies that utilise any similar variation of their patent, more so difficult if the opposition is also of a substantial reckoning (eg. if they hunted Lee down, as mentioned before).

Put it another way - some fucker a long time ago invented the wheel. I doubt that fucker's ancestors would've or could've made a patent. Shit...

Put it another way - some fucker named Charles Goodyear invented and patented the method of vulcanisation of rubber inexpensively. He sold that patent to the Providence Company in Rhode Island, but you don't see neither the present Goodyear company, nor anyone else suing anyone because they're using the same method to produce good old fucking rubber tyres.

[cheep]

the point is, really, that these brands have developed their identity on making copys of levis jeans, and levis knows this. SDAs whole aesthetic is levis with a heavy dose of humor.

no, levis should not go after everyone who makes 5 pocket jeans.they should protect thier brand identity. te japanese brand should build their own identity apart from levis. this discussion is showing the brands that we love that you will not buy their product unless it looks like a pair of levis... which puts them in a tough spot.

[indigo_junkie]

te japanese brand should build their own identity apart from levis.

good point.

I figure maybe like Bridgestone against Michelin tyres in Moto GP, Japanese companies are going to come back with even better products that they've ever produced before. Original products where Levis won't have a legal leg to stand on. Then Levis can whine like a little bitch (like Rossi, lol) while their market share in the vintage style/dry denim market shrinks like a pair of steroid abused testes.

this discussion is showing the brands that we love that you will not buy their product unless it looks like a pair of levis... which puts them in a tough spot.

I'm a huge fan of repro jeans because I like the cut. I also like some kind of tasteful branding on the jean, because I don't like blank pockets. If it has to be tabs and arcs, then I want them with tabs and arcs. But it could be any design backpocket stiching for all I care (I do like the tab though, though I don't really care if it's red or not)

@Cottonduck: if the inventer of 4-leg chairs sues, and the inventer of the 3-legged stool sues, then what are we left to sit on? Beanbags? (why aren't they suing lovesac?) This is ridiculous.

[scoon0224]

Patents expire, there for the means of producing vulcanized tires becomes free game after a certain period (just as the patent on riveted pants pockets expired in 1890... resulting in a flood of riveted pants on the market)

Design trademarks are viable for as long as they are enforced, as they are intended to function the same way as logos (which are obviously protected... but more clearly distinguishable). If they were two straight stitches just to hold in a half lining, it would be free game like the rivets, but the arcs are distinctly 'styled' and as such it is a perfectly legit claim.

I agree that in the case of several companies, they are disparate enough to be far from confusing. SDA, Fullcount, Flathead, Oni, Warehouse (some of theirs anyway) were just way too close.

Samurai might be gray but too small too push back (with the bartack, and converging lines a larger company might have managed to keep it... but probably not)

Evisu is obviously different enough to avoid trouble.

[blm14]

It seems there is some confusion here as to whether levi strauss is suing on the basis of the pattern against which the denim is cut versus specific trademarked details. I just read this thread and (maybe I just missed it but) nowhere does it mention that levis is suing anyone because of cut. It would be prohibitively expensive and a total waste of time to try and figure out which jeans are a copy of the CUT of levis (eg: but the hem is 1/8th inch longer and the rise 1/2inch lower, etc etc etc). Whereas, the levis back pocket stitching and red tab are visually obvious and also VERY distinct; most people will recognize the arcuate but very few people could tell a pair of 1947 versus 1966 repro jeans.

[Charlie Delta]

Originally Posted by unspecified source

levis is trying to crack down on companies producing denim

jeans with the classic 5 pocket layout. The Japanese brands are a main focus

right now but I don't think they're alone in this. They seem to be an easy

target because they're small companies and they're using blatant Levi-esque

details.

Levi's does feel that they hold claim to the modern 5 pocket jean layout and

although its not trademarked they are doing what they can to persuade others to

cease producing them....

This is what atleast for me is really causing much confusion..

[gimmegimme]

It seems there is some confusion here as to whether levi strauss is suing on the basis of the pattern against which the denim is cut versus specific trademarked details. I just read this thread and (maybe I just missed it but) nowhere does it mention that levis is suing anyone because of cut. It would be prohibitively expensive and a total waste of time to try and figure out which jeans are a copy of the CUT of levis (eg: but the hem is 1/8th inch longer and the rise 1/2inch lower, etc etc etc). Whereas, the levis back pocket stitching and red tab are visually obvious and also VERY distinct; most people will recognize the arcuate but very few people could tell a pair of 1947 versus 1966 repro jeans.

Its all speculation. No one knows if Levi's has argued about the cut of anyone's jeans...we're just making assumptions based on the fact that a few japanese repro companies are not making repros anymore....suspiciously after they were forced to change the levi's aspects of their jeans.

[cheep]

This is what atleast for me is really causing much confusion..

think about it like this... by looking at the pocket layout, of back pocket shape, width, and coin pocket placement and shape you can tell between levis, lee, and wrangler right? you can tell a lee repro immediately. this is what levis is going after.

or think of this... nudie will not be a target because of the pocket shape, the dropped yoke, the dropped pockets. it does not resemble a pair of levis. a pair of warehouse 1000xx and a pair of vintage levis with red tab and arcuates removed will look exactly the same.

[Charlie Delta]

Absolutely true and very clear examples!

[hawkeye]

Its all speculation. No one knows if Levi's has argued about the cut of anyone's jeans...we're just making assumptions based on the fact that a few japanese repro companies are not making repros anymore.

This is what I'm sayin, someone translated the SDA message which was about wanting to go in their own direction, not about how anyone (Levis) forced them to change. What if all these companies are checking out this board and saying "wow those American kids really like New Standards and Diors, maybe we can do that..."

[poly800rock]

think about it like this... by looking at the pocket layout, of back pocket shape, width, and coin pocket placement and shape you can tell between levis, lee, and wrangler right? you can tell a lee repro immediately. this is what levis is going after.

or think of this... nudie will not be a target because of the pocket shape, the dropped yoke, the dropped pockets. it does not resemble a pair of levis. a pair of warehouse 1000xx and a pair of vintage levis with red tab and arcuates removed will look exactly the same.

i see the point here. but again, is levi's going after all the other brands? Gap, old navy, etc everyone who has jeans that look like theirs?

[cheep]

i know they are going after ralph lauren

[poly800rock]

i know they are going after ralph lauren

that;s for arcs though isn't it, not pattern. or is it?

[gimmegimme]

that;s for arcs though isn't it, not pattern. or is it?

I've yet to hear of any publicized reports of lawsuits for the 5-pocket design...like I said before, all speculation.

"Denim maker Levi's Strauss & Co. has filed a second lawsuit against another competitor this month alleging that the retailer - Abercrombie & Fitch - illegally stole its trademarked back-pocket stitching design, according to a published report Thursday.

Industry trade publication Women's Wear Daily on Tuesday reported on its Web site that Levi's filed the same lawsuit against Polo Ralph Lauren. In its latest suit filed in U.S. federal court in San Francisco, Levi's, citing trademark infringement, accused teen clothing chain Abercrombie of using the trademarked pocket design of connecting arches on Abercrombie's "Ruehl" brand jeans and other unspecified products, the WWD report said."

[mikesduc]

good point.

I figure maybe like Bridgestone against Michelin tyres in Moto GP, Japanese companies are going to come back with even better products that they've ever produced before. Original products where Levis won't have a legal leg to stand on. Then Levis can whine like a little bitch (like Rossi, lol) while their market share in the vintage style/dry denim market shrinks like a pair of steroid abused testes.

Off topic but good to see another GP enthusiast. Casey is kicking ass and I love that it's on a Duc. I followed Stoner through 250's and it killed me when that twit Pedrosa won the title in '05.

[peteyross]

The other U.S. domestic brand that levis is going after is Abercrombie.

[poly800rock]

The other U.S. domestic brand that levis is going after is Abercrombie.

thats for stitching

[poly800rock]

1. There are to be NO tabs attatched between two pieces of fabric on the rear pockets, 2. The cards hanging out of the back pocket, stapled to the pocket, must not look anything like vintage/modern Levi's Info Cards, 3. Arcuates on the rear pockets must not resemble the Levi's arcuate in ANY way shape or form, 4. Rear leather patch cannot contain an image of two moving objects (horses, motorcylcles, pigs, etc..) pulling apart a pair of jeans".

The brands reported to be subject to court orders preventing further sales and distribution are: "Studio D'Artisan, Iron Heart, Toyo/Sugarcane, Oni (BS United), and Samurai."

that says nothing about the patterns or shapes of the rear pockets, etc.

[gimmegimme]

Maybe we should have a factsheet stating what is factual and what is speculation...everyone seems to be getting confused.

edit - what guy?

[poly800rock]

That link you posted links to a post on here by Kiya way back in January, wich is the first link in my original post. What where talking about here is a new issue (not competely, I know).

What's that guy doing deleting his post all the time?

yeah, i have no idea about that either.

[Guest stuckinutah]

1. There are to be NO tabs attatched between two pieces of fabric on the rear pockets, 2. The cards hanging out of the back pocket, stapled to the pocket, must not look anything like vintage/modern Levi's Info Cards, 3. Arcuates on the rear pockets must not resemble the Levi's arcuate in ANY way shape or form, 4. Rear leather patch cannot contain an image of two moving objects (horses, motorcylcles, pigs, etc..) pulling apart a pair of jeans".

The brands reported to be subject to court orders preventing further sales and distribution are: "Studio D'Artisan, Iron Heart, Toyo/Sugarcane, Oni (BS United), and Samurai."

that says nothing about the patterns or shapes of the rear pockets, etc.

Poly, I am on my way up to class right now and will track down my intel. prop. professor. Here are the questions I will ask. Please post any others you want me to ask soon. I am leaving in like 10 minutes.

1. If Levi's can sue, and or petition other' jean makers to stop makeing a certain style of jean they (meaning Levi's) do not have registered.

2. Why jean makers such as Samurai and Oni can continue to make and sell their old design in Japan. But like I told you yesturday, it is because Levi's cannot sue in Japan for some legal reason, but I will find out what that reason is.

Anything else?

[poly800rock]

how is this lawsuit affecting the patterns?

[gimmegimme]

Poly, I am on my way up to class right now and will track down my intel. prop. professor. Here are the questions I will ask. Please post any others you want me to ask soon. I am leaving in like 10 minutes.

1. If Levi's can sue, and or petition other' jean makers to stop makeing a certain style of jean they (meaning Levi's) do not have registered.

2. Why jean makers such as Samurai and Oni can continue to make and sell their old design in Japan. But like I told you yesturday, it is because Levi's cannot sue in Japan for some legal reason, but I will find out what that reason is.

Anything else?

Ya, where did all your posts go?

[BlueOctoberFan]

I'd think that since the japanese companies can't tip their hat to Levi's any more, they don't want anything to do with them any more. So, they decide to stop making anything concidered a 'repro'.

As to the tabs, I'm guessing that the reason for the "of any color" part is that Levi's has used different colors for different lines. For a while they had the "silver-tab" line, and I seem to recall having a pair with an orange tab. Since they've used various colors, they don't want any confusion caused by any other color tab.

[hawkeye]

Right now, this is all the facts about SDA changing their styles:

Tundra loosly translated it and there is no mention of Levis, Edmond brought Levis up...

[fre-co]

Fuck it, I'm going to start panic buying.

[cheep]

im gonna do the oppisite... im gonna wait till the new non levis designs come out before i even think about buyng. im serious... thats the real way to show you support these brands.