New developments in the Levi's vs Japanese repros story

[Dex_star]

exactly... and a lot of people in this thread dont give them enough credit... Sure they sue a lot of our favorite brands... But I can guarantee not one person wouldnt due the same (tho maybe not to the extent of "any tab between two pieces of cloth")

[selaviso]

if it wasnt for levis there wouldnt be all these brands

[neonecko]

exactly... and a lot of people in this thread dont give them enough credit... Sure they sue a lot of our favorite brands... But I can guarantee not one person wouldnt due the same (tho maybe not to the extent of "any tab between two pieces of cloth")

Nah, fuck that. Levi's time is over. They need sit down and embrace competition. Create new innovative designs to keep with up the market. Not sue the shit out of smaller brands over 'IP'. Yes the arcs and tabs definitely help define Levi's image. But I feel it was out of respect that these companies made repros. Levi's should be so honored to have their vintage cuts glorified and reproduced at far better quality. Its clear nobody wants their new shit. It's soulless† companies like this and Microsoft that try to buy-out and sue everything that stands in their way.

[thislittlepiggy]

Nah, fuck that. Levi's time is over. They need sit down and embrace competition. Create new innovative designs to keep with up the market. Not sue the shit out of smaller brands over 'IP'. Yes the arcs and tabs definitely help define Levi's image. But I feel it was out of respect that these companies made repros. Levi's should be so honored to have their vintage cuts glorified and reproduced at far better quality. Its clear nobody wants their new shit.

but if someone copied your design you wouldn't sue them?

i've got mixed feelings about this story, but in the end it's sad news for the denim world.

[BlueOctoberFan]

A friend of my family works in the downtown real estate market of San Francisco and told me Levi's plans on moving out of SF once the lease is up.

That would definitely be a shame. However, if they've been in SF since the 1850's and never bought the property but just leased the entire time, then it's no surprise that it would happen eventually. I feel like they must have their own building, and perhaps it's just some offices relocating...?

[sidneylo]

I am not too keen on any of Levi's business other than hearsay, but what I was told only pertained to the offices of Levi's located in downtown SF.

[jiomitori]

n/a

Edited December 6, 2022 by jiomitori
n/a

[jiomitori]

n/a

Edited December 6, 2022 by jiomitori
n/a

[jiomitori]

n/a

Edited December 6, 2022 by jiomitori
n/a

[rnrswitch]

As the demand for jeans increased, and as more competitors entered the market, Levi's had two options:

1. grow

2. stay small

They, of course, decided to expand their operations, which led to an increase in overseas, sweatshop labor, and a decrease in quality. Could Levi's have grown to their current level of production, where they are now sold in every mall and Wal-Mart in the country, while keeping jobs in the country and maintaining their old standards of craftsmanship? While it's possible that they could have, they would have been the first company to ever accomplish such a challenge.

If Levi's had decided to stay small, Levi's could have become the Alden of denim. In other words, as new companies cornered the mainstream consumer market, which demanded cheap prices, Levi's could have catered to a niche market that was willing to pay for handmade jeans. Did this market exist at the time, and could they have created it, are two important questions that I am unable to answer. Regardless, they could have decided to resist change, and they didn't. And in the same way that Alden would fail at making those square-toe slip-on fake-leather dress shoes that now make up a larger portion of the market, or at trying to keep up with style trends, Levi's expansion forced them to consider the obtuseness of low-end fashion, where flashy pocket designs and washes separate are what separate one brand from another. It was no longer enough to have the 501, or any other good cuts (god, I still love their 519 corduroy), and after several decades of trying to be just another clothing company, Levi's doesn't mean much anymore.

My dad still lights up when he hears the name Levi's. He has owned several pairs in his life, most notably on his days working on a farm. Even though he no longer owns a single pair of Levi's, when I showed him a pair of Eternals, his first question was if they were as good pair of Levi's. He knows Levi's aren't a good pair of jeans anymore, referring directly to their past days of glory, as if to deny the existence of the modern brand. For younger generations, Levi's have always been the cheap, unhip brand. People on this board are somewhere in between. We know where Levi's has been, we don't like where they went, and we have found new companies that represent what we wish Levi's could still represent. In a boarder sense, the decline of Levi's has a lot to do with the decline of the American manufacturing industry, which, for those of us who live in the US, is something we should be upset about.

Actually, levis was very successful before they expanded their production to overseas markets. They started producing Levis in other countries only like 15 years ago (93 or 95..can't quite remember). So it is very possible and actually probable that they would be "successful" while keeping production in the states, especially if they prided themselves on quality and kept high quality standards and used this as a marketing tool.

[hawkeye]

jiomitori, I get what you're saying, but on the other hand it looks like you are picking up the Eternals instead of the LVC, not a knock at you, I'm guilty of the same thing, so it is a bit of our fault as well...

Your comparison of car companies is a good one for Levis, look at any of the big 3 US car companies who were blinded by thinking that noone could be better than them (or that they were only competing against eachother) and they could run the market with boring designs while cutting down on quality.

Should be interesting to see if some foreign company swoops in and tries to buy Levis while the dollar and the company are so weak.

[cash]

Should be interesting to see if some foreign company swoops in and tries to buy Levis while the dollar and the company are so weak.

Maybe TOYO and a consortium of Japanese investors?:eek:

[theetruscan]

exactly... and a lot of people in this thread dont give them enough credit... Sure they sue a lot of our favorite brands... But I can guarantee not one person wouldnt due the same (tho maybe not to the extent of "any tab between two pieces of cloth")

I don't see it that way at all. They were an originator of jeans way back when. I respect that. Ford was an originator of cars way back when, I respect that. I still think Levi's now, and Fords now, are junk, and neither company deserves any respect nor credit for what they are now. What they were, yes. What they are, no.

Regarding the suit, as has been repeated ad naseum, Levi's got a trademark on an impossibly broad mark that would never have been granted in the last 80 years (probably much longer), and through constant renewals and proofs of use, they have kept it alive. It's like a dinosaur trademark, if it finally dies, so much the better. It is a thing out of time.

A company is, in most cases, just a profit engine for the owners. It deserves no more credit than the actions it takes. Lately, Levi's doesn't deserve shit.

[Busted Seam]

Maybe Levi's is all about profit. But are the Japanese companies just in it for charity?

How many people have made money from an industry that's plainly based on Levi's products? Not jsut the 501; the boot cut jeans, the 505, the Type 1 and type 2 Jackets, the 557 jacket, not even counting high end companies like Michiko Koshino that have ripped off RED. Are Levi's suing anybody for copying those? No. Instead they're suing simply because companies are using a trademark, and a tab, that they've had registered. It's a pretty simple issue. If I started calling myself theetruscan on this board, you'd get pissed off, no?

Yes, levi's have perhaps gone about this the wrong way, yes Levi's have made plenty of fuckups of their own, but if someone started copying Samurai or Flathead trademarks, do you think they wouldn't sue their asses?

[kiya]

A friend of my family works in the downtown real estate market of San Francisco and told me Levi's plans on moving out of SF once the lease is up.

That's actually public information.. There was a front page Chronicle article about Levi's moving off Battery Street once their lease is up shortly.

They're looking at moving a bit south to San Mateo County..

That's where i live now, i think they're following me.

[kiya]

Levi's fucking sucks these days, but I'm not excited to see what takes their place on the corner of union square.

Just to clarify.. that was in reference to "Levi's" as a company moving their headquarters.. not the retail store they own.

[Stacks]

I'm not defending Levi's general business practices but let's face it, arcs and tabs was kind of their thing. If you made a product and then found out people in japan were essentially ripping it off and successfully selling these ripoffs for way more than you charge what would you do?

v I mean, we don't have to talk about it, but it is that simple unless you have an interest in getting repros with tabs and arcs. Intellectual property is something you either believe in or not, but since much of the world does recognize it you can surely understand why Levis is doing what they are doing.

[horriblyjollyjinx]

I don't see it that way at all. They were an originator of jeans way back when. I respect that. Ford was an originator of cars way back when, I respect that. I still think Levi's now, and Fords now, are junk, and neither company deserves any respect nor credit for what they are now. What they were, yes. What they are, no.

Regarding the suit, as has been repeated ad naseum, Levi's got a trademark on an impossibly broad mark that would never have been granted in the last 80 years (probably much longer), and through constant renewals and proofs of use, they have kept it alive. It's like a dinosaur trademark, if it finally dies, so much the better. It is a thing out of time.

A company is, in most cases, just a profit engine for the owners. It deserves no more credit than the actions it takes. Lately, Levi's doesn't deserve shit.

Good points.

The people who should get credit is Levi's Strauss and Jacob Davis, Levi's today is an entirely different thing than in the 1880's.

I like the heritage but I don't exactly feel I should 'respect' them when they haven't done squat for me. LVC is alright but japanese IS better.

[jake431]

Sorry Duck, I know you wanted to let this rest, and I will say first off that I have no new information about the suit.

But I wanted to post my perspective on Levis ills. I am not a hardcore denim head - I like it, love it, but I split my obsession time between this world and leather/flight jackets. A lot of the people who collect flight jackets are older and while Levis has positioned themselves as the pioneer of the denim=youth movement, from what I've been told by older folks and from other sources, it's just not so. Other brands were quite prominent in the mix (Lees Wrangler etc). Fast forward to today's market - Levis I think still attempt to market themselves as the originator, but the provenance of that claim is debateable, and the quality of product, the inspiration of it, is lacking these days. They seem to ape the cuts of other brands, but use their uninspired denims. Whatever we at this forum think of other fashion brands (diesel, rock n republic etc) - those are the jeans that young men and women (in America) turn to for hip denim, or rock n roll denim - not Levis. I think Levis lost their focus - if you want to claim originator status, you have to originate. Instead, by their aping other jean lines, they've cut down the reasons to buy Levis in the first place, except for brand loyalty.

I believe the brand can be saved but it will take some bold vision at the helm to do it. Instead of suing these Japanese companies, they ought to view them as a breeding ground for potential Levis designers.

Just my 2 cents.

-Jake

[lakes]

Nah, fuck that. Levi's time is over. They need sit down and embrace competition. Create new innovative designs to keep with up the market. Not sue the shit out of smaller brands over 'IP'. Yes the arcs and tabs definitely help define Levi's image. But I feel it was out of respect that these companies made repros. Levi's should be so honored to have their vintage cuts glorified and reproduced at far better quality. Its clear nobody wants their new shit. It's soulless† companies like this and Microsoft that try to buy-out and sue everything that stands in their way.

*im kinda just jumping in here, but here i go:

Soulless? comparing levi's to microcrap!? Ahh Levi's is one of the oldest and down to earth american companies ever. Levi was an honest man, and developed an amazing brand and product. Every little thing that makes up a levi jean was an idea of his.

And to say companies now are repro vintage levi's at far better quality seems farfetched to me. The jeans were kept at their heavy weight even through the depression when the government requlated clothing production. And the jeans were strong enough to save a mans life! I'm sorry I cant site these things, as they are from the Levi's brand book and I dont have access to it anymore.

I feel innovation is not needed in my jeans. But Im a simple person who just likes good looking, high quality and nice fit jeans. I get that everytime I walk into a levi's store, and for about $60.

I, myself, see it that they are trying to protect their brand and the legacy of Levi Strauss.

[sidneylo]

That's actually public information.. There was a front page Chronicle article about Levi's moving off Battery Street once their lease is up shortly.

They're looking at moving a bit south to San Mateo County..

That's where i live now, i think they're following me.

I just heard they're moving into an office next to Turf… (8.5)

[Lloyd]

Should be interesting to see if some foreign company swoops in and tries to buy Levis while the dollar and the company are so weak.

It's privately owned, by descendants of the man himself. It's unlikely they'd sell it while it's looking so unhealthy.

[Chicken]

i don't exactly agree about the microsoft comparison either. but i do think recent levi's reminds me a lot of the "beige" mac era of apple computers under john sculley – spread too thin with many me-too products. however just like apple, they do have a chance to become good again, but they need to be more focused and be more aggressive, not reactive.

i do agree with some of the things jiomitori said, too. i personally think selling levi's at walmart is like denzel washington becoming a regular in saved by the bell – while it might make few bucks for you in the short run, it ruins your brand identity and credibility.

[rnrswitch]

I'm not defending Levi's general business practices but let's face it, arcs and tabs was kind of their thing. If you made a product and then found out people in japan were essentially ripping it off and successfully selling these ripoffs for way more than you charge what would you do?

v I mean, we don't have to talk about it, but it is that simple unless you have an interest in getting repros with tabs and arcs. Intellectual property is something you either believe in or not, but since much of the world does recognize it you can surely understand why Levis is doing what they are doing.

It really has nothing to do with intellectual property rights, because the red tag and arc are not "intellectual" developments, they are branding and nobody buys a pair of samurai's because they think they are levis. It is because they believe they are better than levis. Nobody would pay $300 for a pair of standard levis.

I feel like this discussion is going in circles.