Pride FC and MMA

[16steps]

i dont know how to call the JJ v. shogun fight but i will say JJ is deceptively strong

[ktothe]

Is it really deceptive? He's atlest 6'4" and will be a heavyweight by the end of the year. What kind of strength do you expect him to have?

[16steps]

against bader, he looked pretty lanky but after checking him out hes yoked

[ktothe]

This is when I realized he was a beast. Arlovski is a monster and jones is bigger.

[Lozinski]

hoooooolay fack.

[BIZ]

Jones is too good

[baizilla]

What the fuck is wrong with the UFC judges lately... Martin Kampmann won that fight. Atleast by 2 rounds to 1.

[aoi]

"Don't leave it in the hands of the judges" is a fucking cop-out.

[ke1]

There is always minor speculation about the judges after fights like this, about their intentions and influences, but then people will say that they're hired by the State Athletic Commission and soon all is fine.

Diego was supposed to win this fight, to shoot him back into the spotlight, it's no secret. And barring a lopsided beatdown, he was going to win it.

Another more concrete example is Bisping/Hamill. Still considered one of the biggest robberies in the UFC. Hamill was the less popular fighter, the underdog, and was fighting in Bisping's country. And he lost the decision... naturally...

"This is a stinkin' dirty hell hole of a judging system, AND I'M GONNA CLEAN IT UP!" - Charlie from It's Always Sunny playing Serpico...

[ktothe]

There is always minor speculation about the judges after fights like this, about their intentions and influences, but then people will say that they're hired by the State Athletic Commission and soon all is fine.

Diego was supposed to win this fight, to shoot him back into the spotlight, it's no secret. And barring a lopsided beatdown, he was going to win it.

Another more concrete example is Bisping/Hamill. Still considered one of the biggest robberies in the UFC. Hamill was the less popular fighter, the underdog, and was fighting in Bisping's country. And he lost the decision... naturally...

"This is a stinkin' dirty hell hole of a judging system, AND I'M GONNA CLEAN IT UP!" - Charlie from It's Always Sunny playing Serpico...

I dont know man there are some questionable things but honestly it really bois down to incompetence and stupidity. I really dont think the UFC is influencing the judges for a multitude of reasons. The best probably being these judges make horrible decisions in ever single org they are associated with and even other sports entirely.

Further, Joe Silva and Dana White have no say in who the commission picks for the fights. In cases they do, for example, UFC 127, or the England fights they keep a master list of judges and everytime the judges fuck up they lower that judge down on the list and choose to bring over judges they have the most confidence in. The problem there is most of the judges are embarrassing bad at their jobs so its hard to regulate them in that regard. Actually thats not entirely true - an org can tell the commission they dont want to have a judge and the commission takes that into consideration but I cant think of an example where they acted on it, off the top of my head.

I've read numerous stories from MMA Journalist and even heard stories from fighters themselves that speak to the stupidity of most judges. Situations where judges looked to another judge to ask what the fighter is seeing when someone pulls off something so simple as a Kimura or Americana.

Theres also the fact that the judges actually have the worst seat in the house. They dont have monitors and if there is action away from their end of the cage and the fighter infront of them is obstructing their view they dont have a good opportunity to see exactly whats going on.

I dont think much is going to change in the near future but Id say in about 5-10 years when people who actually have fight experience and truly understand the sport begin to apply to become judges. You really want a retired fighter in there to help set a precedent that other judges who aren't experienced in actually fighting MMA can learn from and follow. And the judges definitely need to be given monitors.

Heres a fun little excersize. Get a list of judges and then get a list of judges you feel have made poor decisions in the past. You might the list to be quite short because its usually the same offenders.

[ktothe]

Just some more thoughts because I cant sleep...

While I do understand where people are coming from when they say "Don't leave the fight in the hands of the judges" Is a cop out I would have to ask you what else would you like the owners, ceo's, mangers, etc to say?

Their hands are pretty much tied. This is the current state of Mixed Martial Arts judging and the only thing they can do is hope that the commission picks up better trained and more experienced judges.

But there is something you can do as a fan. Become a judge. If you feel so strongly about these decisions that it makes you angry, you want some sort of change, and you love the sport then take that extra step to give back to the sport. It's incredibly easy to get fights under your belt and become certified. While you are studying and training to become a judge you can always volunteer to judge unsanctioned events on Indian lands. Call up your local promoters and let them know you have a passion for the sport and want to help it out and feel you can do a good job of judging. There is definitely someone out there that will hire you.

Oh and one more thing that that brings together the "dont leave it in the..." and judging in general. I think something should be added to the unified rules that states the fighters should be made aware of the current score cards so that perhaps a fighter will know when he is under the gun and he can work harder to not leave it in the hands of the judges. Of course this also means the fighter currently winning can try his best to not engage but that should directly effect his score as agression ring generalship and damage are already part of the criteria for judging a fight.

Something else to think about to is how poor some coaches are when it comes to cornering. How many times have you heard a ringman tell his fighter he's winning the fight when he clearly isnt. Remember Diegos dad telling him he was ahead on the cards against Penn?

Theres just a lot of angles to this and I think its a valid concern that deserves discussion but perhaps blaming the orgs isnt exactly the right path to take?

That previous sentence was brought to you and financed by Dana White.

[ke1]

"5-10 years when people who actually have fight experience and truly understand the sport begin to apply to become judges." A pretty simple idea, but probably the best solution.

On a similar note, what are your thoughts on old school PRIDE judging system? Or pretty much what the majority of JMMA orgs use? The idea of the winner being whoever was closest to finishing the fight.

I feel like in a fight, the one and only goal is to inflict the most damage, and with added rules like "aggression" and "cage control", MMA becomes more and more sport-like.

[ktothe]

Well first we should be clear that MMA is a sport. It's no longer simply an exhibition of what fight style is better than the other*

So with that said I'm honestly fine with the current system of judging. There are a few things I would like to borrow from Japan such as fighters being shown the scores. But I dont like the idea of a fight being scored as a whole if thats what you mean. The only proper place fo that is a Vale Tudo style fight with no rounds or just a time limited single round.

We honestly just need to define the paramaters of the sport better. We need to come to a conclusion on how to score striking, and how to score grappling. What is worth more a dominant striking game or dominant grappling? If a fighter A is hurting fighter B with strikes for half the round but then fighter B takes down fighter A and holds dominant top position and constantly works to pass and threaten submissions who wins the round? Similarly if Fighter B holds dominant top position but Fighter A is constantly trying for sweeps or even subs who wins the round?

Can a position truly be dominant if the fighter does nothing with it? What exactly is dominate grappling in the context of MMA? What is a clean hook to the grill worth compared to a cleanly landed leg kick?

The idea of damage is sort of a nebulous one if you think about it right? Some fighters will show damage and some wont but it doesn't mean they aren't actually hurt and i think the inverse is also true.

Something I would like to see more is 10-10 rounds and 10-8 rounds. I think that might help a small bit but it also is definitely going to lead to a lot of complaining amongst fans when their favorite fighter ends a match with a draw. However, I think the fact that these things are starting to happen in higher profile fights people will start to get used to it.

There are just so many nuances to the sport that often lead to subjective judgement calls even when we do have black and white rules. Thats part of what makes MMA appealing. And sometimes, with ignorant judges, it can lead to some bad decisions. Lets make sure we have judges that can accurately score the current system before we move on to something else thats even easier to fuck up. Lets hold some people accountable, and do something about judges that are consistently poor.

I've got to say though, in a discussion about fair judging? Pride would be the last organization I would bring up.

*because we already know wrestling is the best. HAMMER HOUSE.

[ke1]

You can't say HAMMER HOUSE without yelling it. But yeah, I was really just referring to judging the fight as a whole.

Won't even try and write up a response half as long as yours, but I agree, we need definite guidelines as to how each facet of the sport is judged, and how they compare individually.

[ke1]

:eek:

[Lozinski]

What did I miss in that gif?

[baizilla]

girl on the right tries to touch diego... creepy shit

[Lozinski]

Hahahahaahahaha

[aak]

[poops]

hope he's at 100%

[ayo4yayo]

hope he's at 100%

He better be! Jon Jones is no joke

[ktothe]

Shogun fan since day one and forever.

[dunkin deeznuts]

tempted to PPV this fight......

[16steps]

predictions?

never was a shogun fan but i dont see him losing on saturday

[aak]

yeah i've got shogun by TKO

[ayo4yayo]

I got Jon Jones by decision

[iGIT]

anyone watching the prelim fight on spike tv? i really think anthony njukuani should have won that fight.

[ayo4yayo]

watching it livestream right now...

[ayo4yayo]

cro cop is done, he should have retired

he'll only ruin the little legacy that he has left

[16steps]

livestream link/