Levi's takes on Japanese Denim Resellers and Manufacturers

[Lars]

I don't really think Levi's is in the right. Even if they have copyrighted the red tab and acurate there should be some reason involved. I can understand if the sda acurate is borderline, but to go after samurai and SC is just silly.

[Dex_star]

[sneakeraddict]

My thoughts about about how this will effect Brits on Superfuture.

I don't think anyone in Great Britain need worry about this too much.

We will still be able to use proxy services for Samurai redtab etc without worry IMHO.

My impression of the American legal system is that they are overly officious and love to sue each other too much. US customs will of course comply, British customs invariably won't (IMO).

Quite simply, they probably won't be arsed. Can you honestly see Parcel Force etc opening every parcel from Japan....??? (And caring if they find one with a red tab?)

Er, no.

Bear in mind that US Customs will be told to see this as a "patriotic" issue with Levis being an iconic American product.. "Japan is ripping us off guys - lets sue their ass and dont let that shit into America!!!!"

Here is how the same situation will work here:

British customs & excise upon finding a red-tab (presuming they even know about the 'ban' )

"Aren't we meant to destroy or block these or something?

Fuck it... can't be arsed, and its only gonna result in more paperwork for me, plus, I go on my lunch in a few minutes anyway... Just deliver the things as normal and pretend we never noticed it."

There's no way on God's green earth British Customs & Excise/Parcel Force are going to enforce this. (Bear in mind this is the same parcel force, who, whenever they deliver something to me with a customs charge, advise me how I can avoid it through technically illegal practices next time.

[Tenchi]

I don't really think Levi's is in the right. Even if they have copyrighted the red tab and acurate there should be some reason involved. I can understand if the sda acurate is borderline, but to go after samurai and SC is just silly.

Its economics. You're getting rid of competition.

If they're almost looking identical with red tabs and back pocket stitching and almost same cuts, then why are people buying Samurais or whatever?

Levis wants to regain some territory here for their work.

Its as if something like Ford starts to copy a completely identical set of the Ferrari range and started to sell it. Its kinda wrong if you get what i mean.

I rkn put simply, Levis wants everyone to fruck off and get some of their own work done

[ikidomari]

Wow. I can't believe this.

btw, we're on Digg:

http://digg.com/world_news/Levi_s_sues_American_clothing_stores_for_selling_Japanese_jeans

[Neilfuji]

Hello

Right, I’ve just spent the last few hours reading this whole thread, not because I wanted to but because I was woken this morning by phone call from an irate ad confused fashion journalist, and to date six e-mail and countless phone calls. I had been on line when it was first posted made a couple of posts and left it be; now I’ve had enough hassle this morning to prompt this

1, Please don’t call us repro companies. Or at least don’t group us all together like that, there are many Denim companies in Japan that will not be affected by this and will continue producing. The trademark is an issue due to nearly all denim companies use a float tab in some way or other

2, the reason Levi would do it in such a public way is to stop it from happening in the future, it’s a public execution, a deterrent to others who may think of infringing on there trademark and copyrights, plus a big press piece for Levis, a few months ago a large denim company in the US closed one of it’s few remaining denim plant in the US, loss of about 400 jobs, The US government have expressed concern that the outsourcing of US garment jobs has reached a ‘problem’ level and needs to be reversed. Make you own conclusions here

3, As I’m sure you all know the global denim market (especially the premium market) has been having a hard time of late, the US is a soft market right now but Europe is very hard, mainly from ‘faux’ denims most from established labels looking for an increased profit from cheaper denims, Levis (globally) has felt this the most due to the shrinking market and there quite frankly poorly conceived ‘premium’ attempts and collaborations that have never really worked and need to address the balance, when you’re the market leader even a little lose is a bad thing over the last ten year Levis have suffered greatly from smaller companies taking there business. A swarm of bees can kill a cow!!!!

4, customs into the US is one of the hardest in the world, a few seasons ago they block an sample shipment bound for a Vegas trade show from an another Japanese company because there thought it was from China, due to the Kanji on the boxes, which lead to a loss of most of there wholesale sales for a whole season in the US and to this day problems with customs, as soon as you company goes on there list that’s pretty much it there will no imports in to the US until it’s removed, it’s not .1% as someone said…grow up, whoever you were!

5, trademark and copyright laws are set in stone it’s not about ‘suing’ someone it a fairly clean legal process, in which all goods are blocked until it’s resolved, plus the timing of this has corresponded very well to the completed production runs of most of the Japanese denim business, so they will have a whole seasons worth of product stuck in this, stopping any return on the huge investments made by them, the timing is very interesting on this due to the fact Levis would know this, most of the companies would have most if not all there resources invested in the production and little money to fight the legal battle, if one does ensue. It’s not just a matter of re-stitching a pocket detail or removing a float tab, it a more complex process and would involve a whole retooling of the production run… not really a possibility

6, There have been issues in Japan about the taxes on exported denim goods and the disclosure of overseas profits from them, I sure you all know of the tax problem Evis/Evisu has had in the past few years, this coupled with new Government thinking towards both the US and the Denim business, the process of trademark and copyright enforcement will be a lot easier for Levis. Someone said that Japanese law is like Tofu…dude get a grip, it’s super hardcore when it business

7, this will not effect what you already have in your homes….don’t go destroying your clothes! Also have none of you seen what they do with trademark infringed goods….there will be NO give away, it will be burnt, trademark and copyright infringement are easy win for law enforcement agencies, they will enforce it….if it happens

8, this will pave the way for other to get in to the trademark issues, Levis have always been VERY aggressive on there trademarks and copyrights, even if the company has stopped the use before the legal proceeding has been started they can still be prosecuted up to five years retrospectively (I think this is dependent of local laws though) importer and resellers are also in this group this will have global effects, the trademarks are global not just US and Japan.

9, Levis have a right to do this and it may have been a question of building the case before any action could be taken.

I would also like to say I’ve been working in the denim business for over 20 years, and Levis have done this before, many, many times, I have not yet heard from many other Japanese denim labels but the ones I have spoken to are concerned for the US market but any solid fact are few and far between at this stage

Neil

[mike lowrey]

My thoughts about about how this will effect Brits on Superfuture.

I don't think anyone in Great Britain need worry about this too much.

dude, what?

did you read the post at all? the manufacturing companies are being sued. they are unlikely to continue production of the jeans in question, and all sales are being halted by tomorrow, worldwide. the jeans wont move out of japan.

unfortunately your masterplan in fooling british customs is kind of out of the question when the product is not being produced or sold anymore.

[sneakeraddict]

the products are still being produced, but will be with new logos.

RE:

the existing products on shelves in Japan, as we speak (with red tabs etc) will get through British customs just fine. (IMHO)

It sounds like they wont get through America though (with immediate effect), from what Kiya has said.

Basically this is the only point I am making about people panicking over not being able to get existing samurai etc with red tabs through customs -, this will really only concern those in the US - unfortunately.

[Gem_art]

So the Levis legal department creaks into action again. The past few years has seen lawsuits threatened against Carhartt Europe and Howies because of the cloth label on the back pocket, it's not as if this is without precedent.

Lee sued Tenderloin a couple of years ago when Tenderloin put out a jean with Tee on the leather patch.

[Neilfuji]

Sorry to do this....

but if this is happening, no they will not, it will effect ALL exports from the date mention

and also all produvtion until it sorted

Neil

the products are still being produced, but will be with new logos.

RE:

the existing products on shelves in Japan, as we speak (with red tabs etc) will get through British customs just fine. (IMHO)

It sounds like they wont get through America though (with immediate effect), from what Kiya has said.

Basically this is the only point I am making about people panicking over not being able to get existing samurai etc with red tabs through customs -, this will really only concern those in the US - unfortunately.

[mike lowrey]

the existing products on shelves in Japan, as we speak (with red tabs etc) will get through British customs just fine. (IMHO)

It sounds like they wont get through America though (with immediate effect), from what Kiya has said.

Basically this is the only point I am making about people panicking over not being able to get existing samurai etc with red tabs through customs -, this will really only concern those in the US - unfortunately.

which part are you not getting?

those existing jeans wont be sold anymore, no one will sell them to you and they are not shipped anywhere, so it doesn't really matter what british customs would do with said jeans because they'll never get there!

[Neilfuji]

Hi Gem

I remember that it was funny....

as for Carhartt and Howie, that a lot of saber rattling, but let's all be a liitle careful about what we say and do for a while...[

it will,if it happening, effect us all in some way or other

[Neil

So the Levis legal department creaks into action again. The past few years has seen lawsuits threatened against Carhartt Europe and Howies because of the cloth label on the back pocket, it's not as if this is without precedent.

Lee sued Tenderloin a couple of years ago when Tenderloin put out a jean with Tee on the leather patch.

[red]

i really dont care if the japanese brands have to change abit. as i said earlier, i encourage it.

but i hate the fact that levis is taking such actions over such trivial details. its just not settling right in my conscience. its not like denim connoisseurs will start buying levis again simply because the japanese denim they love have different backpockets. we dont buy sammys for the fucking leather patch. we buy them for the quality that levis is lacking.

should burberry stop dior homme from making trench coats?

how about schott? should they be the only ones making riders jackets?

my argument isnt well organized, and my thoughts arent either, but it just doesnt feel right.

[alterion]

Although i think UK denim heads should still be able to puchase iron heart from thier UK supplier (ironheart.co.uk)

[red]

7, this will not effect what you already have in your homes….don’t go destroying your clothes! Also have none of you seen what they do with trademark infringed goods….there will be NO give away, it will be burnt, trademark and copyright infringement are easy win for law enforcement agencies, they will enforce it….if it happens

Neil

theyre going to BURN the denim?!?!?!?

[Neilfuji]

yes...it's what you do to 'fake' goods, which is what they may become after this action has taken place...It's a copyright issue as well as trademark

it's the worst case but it may happen...all goods will be removed from the market place.

Neil

[red]

yes...it's what you do to 'fake' goods, which is what they may become after this action has taken place...It's a copyright issue as well as trademark

it's the worst case but it may happen...all goods will be removed from the market place.

Neil

a crime in itself.

to think. our beloved selvage reduced to "fake."

this makes me so much sadder.

[sneakeraddict]

those existing jeans wont be sold anymore, no one will sell them to you and they are not shipped anywhere, so it doesn't really matter what british customs would do with said jeans because they'll never get there!

Fair enough, but my impression of the way these types of Jeans are sold in Japan, is that they tend to be sold in 'local' family / small time businesses: that is to say they are not sold in the Japanese equivalent of 'Topman', 'Selfridges' etc, which have huge head office and clear directorship from some head office which sends out emails to the stores every five minutes.

From this, I therefore judge that there is no way Levis is gonna check round every small independent Japanese store that just happens to sell a red-tab repro.

And from this, I predict that the existing stock of red-tabs will probably remain in some numbers on the shelves of these small time Japanese denim stores.

Of course, I fully accept I may be COMPLETELY wrong, but I just do not see it happening that there are currently unprecedented numbers of smallish Japanese independent store owners desperately running round their stores and frantically removing any item with a red-tab or arcuate from sale.

I would 'bet my bottom dollar' that even after every store concerned has been notified, some will just choose to ignore or conveniently 'forget' and just sell the remaining stock as normal.

Of course this is just my opinion, but I would be very surprised If I were wrong and that EVERY red-tab repro has now been removed from EVERY shelf in Japan (or whenever specific date is).

[Neilfuji]

They do not have too.....

it's the producers job to recall ALL good in a case like this. to 'ignore' is to be part of the legal issue and will bring the full force of the system to bare on the 'little famliy store'

I understand what you saying, but you still can't get them through custom in japan or the UK

if any one feels the need read this

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/journals/njtip/v4/n2/5/

it gives a history of cases like these

Neil

[blm14]

I remember I was in Philly like two days after Allen Iverson was arrested in 2002. There we so many people with "Free Allen Iverson" T-shirts. Someone needs to make Superfuture Limited Edition "Free The SDA Pigboys" shirts

www.cafepress.com go ahead and do it. It's free...

[Double D]

There's no way on God's green earth British Customs & Excise/Parcel Force are going to enforce this. (Bear in mind this is the same parcel force, who, whenever they deliver something to me with a customs charge, advise me how I can avoid it through technically illegal practices next time.

Aye, I've only been hit by customs once with a package from the US, and at the depot they said that I got unlucky, and they just slap taxes on a random selection of parcels.

[Brienneoftarth]

Its the same deal for brittain and the US, Customs will of course intercept a huge shipment of japanese denim to a business location, but I highly doubt, if in fact he could find them, that they would give a shit or a second thought to an unlabeled package from one of the buying services here. I understand its a global thing so the repro companies will have to chage their product, but if the left overs are available in some mom and pop shops, then I'm confident they'll breeze thru customs. you just declare a shit instead of pants. Unless homeland security unveils their new dry denim sniffing canine division..........

[blm14]

Shit... ande should make superfuture denim!

Ande could make a KILLING on here selling "re-repro" kits. A back patch, some red thread with instructions on how to stitch an arcuate, several pocket-sized traceovers that you can follow and place over the pockets to apply the stitching, and little red tabs with 12 standard letterings and the option to add custom ones. All you'd need is a $20 hand sewer. Whole kit: $80. Aint nobody gonna try and track down one little kiwi.

[Neilfuji]

PLEASE.....

it's got nothing to do with Parceforce, yes we've all bent the rules on this..

if it can't get out of Japan, now is it going to get to you....

read the posts and understand, it would be come an offence to send it to you, this has 'SHIT ALL" to do with UK Customs and parceforce

Neil

Aye, I've only been hit by customs once with a package from the US, and at the depot they said that I got unlucky, and they just slap taxes on a random selection of parcels.

[mr.indigo]

Just contacted Giles at Ironheart UK distributors and he confirms the his next delivery from Japan will be de-Levied.

The parties over guys in Britain as in elsewhere. Listen to Neilfuji - he speak the truth.

[synthi]

Wow, this thread has grown since I went to sleep. Many of us are naturally reacting emotionally; really there are just a few balanced posts from the likes of Kiya, Paul T, Chicken and Neilfuji.

Outside of denim I have many interests where I can draw parallels to the Japanese denim repro market. It is generally agreed that the industrial revolution during the 60s and 70s led to increased efficiency and profits at the cost of outright product quality. Machine took over man, to the point where now, particularly in countries like the UK where labour is so expensive, sticking a 'hand made' or 'hand painted' tag on a product implies that it was lovingly created and demands a higher price point.

One example is hand tools, particularly planes. Back in the 30's, the Levi's and Lee's of the woodworking plane world were Norris and Spiers. They were at the time astronomically expensive, maybe 3-4 month's salary for the average cabinetmaker. They were hand made with a unique and patented blade adjustment mechanism featuring cast steel infilled with rosewood. Fast forward to the present day and most hand planes are cheap machine made tools with poor tolerances; they require a lot of fettling to work acceptably. And so, much like the Japanese denim manufacturers, there are a few individuals in the UK and the USA who pay homage to the Norris and Spiers designs of yesteryear and recreate planes using those old patterns featuring improved versions of the same patented Norris adjuster mechanism. Perhaps if the Norris company were not defunct, they too would be busy suing.

The other example that comes to mind is the situation concerning electronic synthesis, which as my username suggests I'm really passionate about. Back in the 60's and 70's the late Dr Robert Moog published a unique filter design in a popular electronics magazine, it led to the signature Moog sound. Other peers at the time such as Robert Pearlman's Arp and the UK's EMS based their filters entirely on Moog's published design. Arp even went to the trouble of potting their total copy of the Moog filter circuitry in epoxy resin in the Arp 2600 to hide the infringement. Much like Levi's red tab, arcuate and leather patch, the Moog filter design was the de facto in analogue synthesis design.

Sadly, like many inventors, Moog's talents lay with electronics rather than business savvy and he failed to protect many of his circuitry and even his name. He spent many of his last years fighting for and winning the right to use the R.A. Moog name. Many people feel that without Moog's vision and imagination, synthesis in either analogue or digital form would not exist today and likewise many feel that if Moog had patented his unique filter circuitry, it would have stifled the rise of companies like Yamaha, Korg and Roland (the TB-303 filter for example is heavily Moog inspired, it simply replaces transistors in the ladder design with diodes). Many wonderful instruments that today are coveted by a passionate minority would not even exist and somewhat familiarly, many digital virtual emulations parody the models on which they’re based on (e.g. G Media’s ‘Oddity’ emulation of the classic Arp Odyssey) in much the same way that the Japanese repro denim manufacturers do.

And so it has to be asked at what price does this kind of defence of trademarks and patents come at? As Oscar Wilde famously said "The ordinary gives the world its constancy, the extraordinary it's value". Long live sine pari.

[swooc]

I do hope that samurai will somehow be able to keep the design of their leather tags. It was one of the major factors in why i purchased a pair. It is just so damn cool especially the kids version.

As for pbj they just need to remove the tag and leather patch. I hope they do this soon also, cause i was just about to order a pair .

[airfrogusmc]

First I just want to say that Levis has done plenty lately to piss off just about everyone including me. Closing the Valencia St factory is just one of many things. But being a photographer copy right and trade mark laws go to the heart of protecting something that I've created. Without those laws I might as well drive a bus. A corporation might as well shut its doors and give everything away. This debate just shows how narcissistic we have become thinking that its OK for these Japanese companies to break the law as long as they're meeting our personal needs. Think about that for one second.

[synthi]

^ Chill, only leather tags with two things or animals pulling apart a pair of jeans are affected (like your native brand, Imperial). Samurai and PBJ do not feature this thus for PBJ the only concern is the blue tab, for Samurai the red tab and arcuate.

*edit* post intended for swooc's message.

[blm14]

One example is hand tools, particularly planes. Back in the 30's, the Levi's and Lee's of the woodworking plane world were Norris and Spiers. They were at the time astronomically expensive, maybe 3-4 month's salary for the average cabinetmaker. They were hand made with a unique and patented blade adjustment mechanism featuring cast steel infilled with rosewood. Fast forward to the present day and most hand planes are cheap machine made tools with poor tolerances; they require a lot of fettling to work acceptably. And so, much like the Japanese denim manufacturers, there are a few individuals in the UK and the USA who pay homage to the Norris and Spiers designs of yesteryear and recreate planes using those old patterns featuring improved versions of the same patented Norris adjuster mechanism. Perhaps if the Norris company were not defunct, they too would be busy suing.

.

I'm not sure this is an apt comparison because levis in the 1930's was work wear, not some kind of exhalted premium thing. Mostly they were worn when you needed to do dirty work and so they couldn't have been terribly expensive, certainly not on par with what we pay now...