Levi's takes on Japanese Denim Resellers and Manufacturers

[Neilfuji]

Neilfuji, for product that they have produced and not shipped, wouldn't it be possible for them to just cut the tap, rip the seams, and replace the leather patch for a relatively small price? I mean, all that manual labor is better than having to get rid of an entire season's stock.

PG3G...

hello

it would depend on the case brought by Levis, they could (and my guess is will) get the product held. even if they do not it's a question of removing anything

also if not just ripping out and off bit of the jeanwhich would take time and costs that some of these guys will not have, would you buy them if they looked like some had riped bit off....

the store may not and even so the delay will take the product past it's shipping date. if your shiping a product that has a problem like this hanging over it , remember that Levis are going after two store already, according to Kiya, why would you risk it, you can cancel due to late shipping and keep you store open or be closed down over another trademark problem later by Levis or even Lee or any other big brand coming at you. it opens the floodgate to that, if this is happening it's going to change the whole business.

it sets a fear in the heart of the buyers and store owners, Kiya as been in this business a log time and they've take her down, by the looks of it, from my years in the denim market I would be thing long and hard about putting product in any store that could close it down as will most...sorry of the point

no it not that simple, just to remove a float tab would need the pocket removed and then re-set and replaced, a patch, if the jeans have been was, can't be reomved due to the colour fade, even if they just ben starched same thing, also look at the patch, some are part of the top seam, re stiching the whole belt will be needed, same for pocket removing...look inside you pockets, the colour will be diffrent and the damage to the denim will be huge.

you'd have to ship all you good back to the factory (cost) factory to do work (more cost) re-wash/set cloths (even more costs) ...etc..etc

we buy Japanese denim because it well made, not going to be after all that is it, it'll look like a rag full of holes and colour mismatched

and them how are we going to take the product

Neil

[grapz]

what time does self edge open

[drgitlin]

PG2G, I understand this (I am actually a senior designer AT Levi's), but articles like these contribute to the awareness, as the buzz around Japanese denim has been raised in the US, the last couple of years (conservatively).

Again, Levi's has been doing this their thing for over 150 years, don't you think they've been through this before?

OT - You don't know an english chap called Howard do you?

[Blanc0]

I understand and appreciate the sentiment, I own many repros and have bought both repros and japanese denim FOR Levi's as design samples that were never seen by legal, but think of ot this way:

It is going to encourage most of these companies to come up with ORIGINAL, iconic trademarks themselves. I'm exited as a designer to see what some of these companies will do design-wise in response.

[grapz]

Nielfuji, will there be any problems ordering from a site in the US, and getting it shipped to canada? If i was to order a samurai jean from BiG today.

and it was shipped today.

[drgitlin]

no it not that simple, just to remove a float tab would need the pocket removed and then re-set and replaced, a patch, if the jeans have been was, can't be reomved due to the colour fade, even if they just ben starched same thing, also look at the patch, some are part of the top seam, re stiching the whole belt will be needed, same for pocket removing...look inside you pockets, the colour will be diffrent and the damage to the denim will be huge.

When Japanese made Evisu were being sold in London in the 90s, you could see on some pairs that they originally had a red tab that had been razored off, and that was due to the same trademark dispute.

[Double D]

It is going to encourage most of these companies to come up with ORIGINAL, iconic trademarks themselves. I'm exited as a designer to see what some of these companies will do design-wise in response.

Exactly... finances of the companies allowing, we're looking at Evisu 8 times over or whatever, hopefully without paint all over the arse though.

[denimdestroyedmylife]

team begs is anti-levis

[Dogfarm]

Jokes on me I guess My first pair of canes should have been the 47 repros not the 45 repros. Well such is life. I really thought the canes accurate was hot. But to be honest as long as cuts are not changing this is not a huge deal what ever modification one might want to do at home or at their tailors is impossible to regulate.

I wonder if evisu will need ot make changes to their logo and name (again).

[Neilfuji]

When Japanese made Evisu were being sold in London in the 90s, you could see on some pairs that they originally had a red tab that had been razored off, and that was due to the same trademark dispute.

simple answer....YES

[Neilfuji]

Nielfuji, will there be any problems ordering from a site in the US, and getting it shipped to canada? If i was to order a samurai jean from BiG today.

and it was shipped today.

you should be fine...but keep on tracking it and if it get stuck call the customs and lie like a lazy baby

Neil

[seatiger]

What I dont understand is how can you possibly trademark something as vague as "leather patch with 2 objects pulling on a pair of jeans", then how about pulling apart a horse or 2 objects stamping on a pair of jeans?

I thought the various patches by repros were ingenius and creative!

[grapz]

i see , thank you

[jooles]

Isn't anyone in this forum a lawyer? Even Niketalk's got a couple...

I doubt that Japanese companies will comply by Friday's deadline. I don't know of a US Court that can impose an order to stop manufacturing in Japan. Was it the World Court? While I'm certain that US stockists (BIG, SE) will want to adhere to avoid a suit - until this is rectified or they're granted an injunction - I doubt a single Japanese manufacturer will comply immediately...

I'm in my penultimate year of law school.

Levi's has trademarks I'm assuming, for the red tab on the left side of the right rear pocket, the arcuate, and the two horses pulling against each other. Levi's has been around forever, and everyone knows when they see these three things on a pair of pants that they are probably Levi's. Bottom line is that it is a very well recognised trademark.

What it comes down to is an objective test to see if the level of visual similarity is "close," and also that it would cause confusion to buyers.

The courts have decided that they are close enough to justify an infringement of Levi's sole right to use these trademarks.

I'm sure tiny companies like Studio D'Artisan don't have the money to pay lawyers tons of money so that they can come up with a convincing argument that would sway the courts.

And honestly, if the red tab, arcuate, and two horses are on a pair of jeans, it seems like a pretty clear infringement, no?

The law sucks sometimes, but it's in there for a reason... another topic altogether.

[Neilfuji]

What I dont understand is how can you possibly trademark something as vague as "leather patch with 2 objects pulling on a pair of jeans", then how about pulling apart a horse or 2 objects stamping on a pair of jeans?

I thought the various patches by repros were ingenius and creative!

it was a long time ago and they were the first to do it....if you read the trademark details, you'll see it's a very simple wording that is written in such away as to close as many doors as it can

Neil

[watchman]

the reason that people are confused is because it isn't a blatant red tab/horses/arctuates infringement, each company changed them slightly for their brand. The question is how far their copyright extends, for example, the SDA patch with the pigs i don't think should qualify. Also, the patches don't say levis on them, they say the japanese manufacturers name, so perhaps the companies could just change the color of the tab to comply.

[tweeds]

I understand and appreciate the sentiment, I own many repros and have bought both repros and japanese denim FOR Levi's as design samples that were never seen by legal, but think of ot this way:

It is going to encourage most of these companies to come up with ORIGINAL, iconic trademarks themselves. I'm exited as a designer to see what some of these companies will do design-wise in response.

likewise. i think beyond the initial unhappiness at this "travesty" there's good that will come out of this particular chapter. there's so many japanese denim companies with so much innovation that it's impossible to imagine otherwise. sure they will take hits...but so do most companies.

[LeicaLad]

If I understand, we have short-term concerns and longer-term issues.

In the short-run, we should be working to help the small sellers unload/move/sell as much of their inventory as possible. As the deadline is tomorrow night, why aren’t more people helping each other, first, by buying as much from the US stores as possible before their deadline hits, and, two, helping online people better navigate the Japanese sites that are willing (eager?) to move stock before their deadline, too. This is a matter of hours.

On the legal front, I am uncertain if individuals can sell “old stock†after the deadline. The question is individuals, not companies. If someone were to walk into SelfEdge and buy 50 pair of whatever, would they be able to sell them off one-by-one on E-prey -- as long as they didn’t open an E-b*y store? These will have a certain cultish status for some time to come, but I’m uncertain of the legal standing of re-sale of them? Any legal beagles able to comment?

There are a dozen Japanese on-line stores that might want to move as much as they can within the time window. I simply do not know. Nevertheless, they are the Japanese versions of SelfEdge and should be helped, if possible.

Long term, it’s the denim. Thus, not too big a concern regarding jeans, per se. So, it is rather about a glut of immediate stock and helping those small vendors stuck with it to move it. This calls for a certain guerilla-level engagement, less confronting the law than evading. We need to help SelfEdge and Big, not to mention the small Japanese vendors who may also be ready to choke to death on inventory.

Advice? Comments?

[watchman]

do we know exactly which brands are included yet? or is it just a blanket case right now

[__3xL]

so self-edge could just ask sugarCane , samurai whoever if it's cool to chop off the red tab , remove the back pocket card and if need be ( if label is indicative if levi trademark ) then remove the leather label also - and sell the jeans as non law breaking jeans ?

easy enough and people could pull the back pocket up to reveal the red tab left after teh razor job like " LOOK - I have ORIGINAL law breaking ass jeans- cool huh "

??

[synthi]

LeicaLad as Kiya says in his first post, the deadline for all sales is Friday 19th and Japanese customs have stopped all exports to companies or consumers as of the 15th so as much as it pains me to say so, your idea is a no go

[thelion1856]

kiya told me yesterday that this does not affect the sale of all japanese danim. For instance the sugarcane okinowa's, sugarcane union stars, imperials, iron army, sling & stone and nudies he sells at the store will continue selling. It only affects the jeans that have any levi infringments like the samurai's, any jeans with the arches and tab on the back pocket or any jean that has two moving things tearing apart a pair of jeans.

some companies that i know infringe are...

sugar cane 47's

all samurai models

all studio d'artisans

all flat heads

iron heart 21oz

iron heart 21oz black

all oni denim

john bull (they have the red tab.)

oh and screw levis. i know they have the right to do this but to do it in such a fucked up manner and go for the little guys is bullshit.

I bought a few pairs because who knows how the japanese companies are going to redo their denim. It would be tragic if samurai or iron heart puts a dragon stiching or some b.s. stiching on their jeans. I didnt want to take that chance so instead of waiting till i wore in all my raw denim i have now i stock piled a bit for the future.

And also another reason i bought is because these are the way the japanese companies intended to style their jeans. I know they rip off the levis style but still these will be considered as the original version and somewhat collector items.

sometimes i wonder if the jay-z picture of him wearing the samurai's had any affect on this or caught levi's attention to get this done much quicker? this picture was floating all over the net a couple months ago. Goodbuy to the "good old days" of japanese denim. these are the last hours.

[Double D]

I bought a few pairs because who knows how the japanese companies are going to redo their denim. It would be tragic if samurai or iron heart puts a dragon stiching or some b.s. stiching on their jeans. I didnt want to take that chance so instead of waiting till i wore in all my raw denim i have now i stock piled a bit for the future.

Dude, it's called a seamripper.

[grapz]

i bought a pair of s0500xx on big

[Bijan]

Wouldn't it be great if Levi's was actually producing the jeans they are suing these companies over? Or producing jeans at all. And yeah, they are protecting what's theirs, that's a simple fact.

Levi's reminds me of Gibson in a way, who is much worse- they will sue anyone. The same thing happened in the 70's when the Japanese (Tokai, for one) made better Les Pauls and Stratocasters than Gibson and Fender did. That (eventually) got Fender and Gibson off of their fat asses to make guitars that were better than the turds they had been. It would be nice if LVC stepped up quality-wise as a reaction to the better made Japanese denim, but it probably ain't gonna happen. I like when the Japanese brands use tags that are not red and have plain pockets. I don't buy jeans for the patch, but I do like some of the now illegal designs.

On a side note, you can still get Tokai Love Rock (Les Paul copy) in Japan, Gibson moustache headstock shape and all.

[denimdestroyedmylife]

lion, if anything, people that saw that jigga picture thought "where can i cop those levis"-----------a case of LEVIS benefitting from samurai

[parachutes]

havent seen any changes/notices for stores online over in japan as of now. i may call a few and see what they have to say tomorrow.

[Ashez]

read up to page 12 then i got tierd ~_~

As I said to my friend when I started reading. Evolution usually means things are going for the better. If you now can call this evolution...

never liked levis much, don't care about any red tag, dont even know what acurate's are heh. I just like nice jeans, tabs don't cut it........

[mikesduc]

Out of place I know but I want to stock up a little and can't find any info on the Full Count 1108. I figure everybody's looking at this thread anyway and time is short. Does anybody have a quick description on thighs and hem. I wear a 33 in everything and all they have is even sizes. Should I go 32 or 34?

[thelion1856]

ddml- true but if any levis execs saw the picture i imagine they'd be saying in a hick voice of course....

"what the fuck? we didnt make those? why is this famous black guy wearing these and not real levis, Marv!?"

"sir these are them japanese repro's. They're huge in the underground denim market right now."

"what the fuck! Japanese levis!? repros!? Sue these bastards! This rapper should be promoting levis not these no name jeans that are more expensive than our levis! For christ sake Marv, we've got share holders!!!!!!"

mike if you wear size 33 go with 32. trust me. you got hours to get them. Just enough time till ups, usps, dlh, ups close today and thats it. If the package is sent out today its still legal. if its sent out tommorow its ilegal.