Jeans of the Old West: A History

[mtchfrnk]

Then, the more time that passed and the more pictures that were posted, the more it has started to sound like a reasonable idea.

I am so with you on this one. I have crossed over.

Now that I think of it, I'm still receiving worker's comp checks form an ankle broken on the job...perhaps Chartis/AIG Catastrophic Injury Insurance will buy me a new pair of jeans?

[rnrswitch]

^ Scotch is for drinking and jeans are for wearing.

Nice fit RNR, out of rep. When I first saw those jeans I was very impressed, but hey, I'll never spend $500 on pants. Then, the more time that passed and the more pictures that were posted, the more it has started to sound like a reasonable idea. I hope Rising Sun sell out fast, I really can't have that temptation out there.

You know, I thought this as well. $500 for a pair of jeans. That's a lot of cash, but if you do it, then wear the shit out of them. My main issue with what I did, is that I will have a nice pair of jeans (other than these) that I will be dedicating myself to for a long time and I didn't think these babies would get enough playing time, but now that I think about it, I have like 5 good months until I get the other pair of jeans. Until then it is these babies.

Like you said, "Jeans are for wearing." If you pay $500 for a pair of jeans, then wear the fuck out of them. It is a disservice to the utility of jeans and to the people that put their hard work into making these jeans for someone to just shove them in the closet and not wear them.

[mtchfrnk]

Since we all seem to be fans of whiskey, I am going to post a link to my blog, where I talk about a phenomenal visit I made to Finger Lakes Distilling.

Link.

[Sansome1877]

the book looks amazing; cant wait to receive my copy

congrats with your 'baby' Mike!

Did you get your book yet? I'm digging out old photos for my Whiskey post(my friend that bought 5 gallons of whiskey) I think i'll post it in a few days. Tell me what you think of the book.

[Joseph Hill]

I was thinking about this when I was getting ready this morning. A thought popped into my head... "Hmmm, I wonder which gel miner's used for their hair." and "Hmmm, while I am on miner's hair, what type of blow dryer would they use?"

1. Coal tar

2. The arse end of a gassy cart mule

[roy6]

1. Coal tar

2. The arse end of a gassy cart mule

Ha ha! Good.

Or:

1. candle wax

2. mine fire backdraft

[rnrswitch]

Some more comparison picks that mike sent me of the original AB Elfelts up against the Rising Sun remakes.

[rnrswitch]

Continuation:

Crotch Reinforcements

[wgmds]

So what are the pants based off of?

[Sansome1877]

So what are the pants based off of?

Give all rep to rnrswitch. These pants are based off the original pair that you see in the comparison pictures. The originals are from 1877 to 1879, we would not have been able to link these pants to A.B Elfelt if it wasn't for the original label on the pants. Jeans of the old west page 91 gives a up close look at the label, both of Rodmond Gibbons patent numbers are at the top of the patch. While looking at the patch notice how many states are listed and it gives you a idea how many people could have been wearing these pants. Not only miners but cattle men,farmers,loggers,gun men,gamblers and so on.

Any one in the west could have been wearing these.

[Sansome1877]

Perhaps the tramps were skateboarding miners who'd fallen on hard times

That's good comedy!!!!

[rodeo bill]

Some more comparison picks that mike sent me of the original AB Elfelts up against the Rising Sun remakes.

/quote]

back seam's the wrong way round:eek:

in all seriousness these are superb! thanks very much RNR for the pics, I've seen other Rising Sun models and they're fantastic. My copy of the book shipped today from Amazon US- can't wait:)

[Paul T]

I've been away, so belated thanks for posting this thread. Mike's book looks to be a groundbreaking contribution to our knowledge of early denim and I can't wait to see it. Like others here, I'm a fan of Rising SUn and love this hook-up, too.

Mike, I've not checked out every page here, how did you match and spec the denim?

[fardin]

hey paul welcome back. and nice to see you in this thread.

[SLAB]

Did you get your book yet? I'm digging out old photos for my Whiskey post(my friend that bought 5 gallons of whiskey) I think i'll post it in a few days. Tell me what you think of the book.

unfortunately not yet, book will take a bit longer in the mail because it'll have to go over the atlantic; I hope to start reading it this week

[rnrswitch]

back seam's the wrong way round:eek:

Yeah, I noticed that as well. Original is folded over the left and the repro folder over the right.

[rodeo bill]

^^ also there's a seam in the centre back of the waistband on the originals. Not to second-guess anyone, but with this type of very basic machine construction (mostly single-needle) and with small runs before everything got smoothly automated, I imagine you would find inconsistencies like this between examples. It would be interesting to know if all the repros are constructed exactly the same way, and indeed if every piece of the original design was.

[Paul T]

The constrcution of the back seam differs a lot on early jeans; there seemed to be a fashion for left over right in the early days, then it switched. Also the Rising Sun jeans have a 'stagger' on the yoke which is perhaps more suggestive of later jeans - earlier ones, like the old example, have a less neat construction without a stagger which leaves the yoke less symmetrical - the parallel lines of stitching at the yoke meet each other, whereas on later jeans one sits above the other. I would love to know more about how these changes evolved and can't wait to see more photos of Mike's early examples.

[rodeo bill]

^^ sorry if this is going off-topic, but I was discussing this with a friend (you know who you are!) a couple of weeks ago, and we surmised that with fell seams, the direction of the seam is governed a) by the folder and by the direction and orientation in which the seam is made (eg on a particular folder sewing on the blue side up from crotch to waistband would give right-over-left, whereas down from waistband to crotch would give left-over-right, and same goes for sewing on the white side). Does this make sense? That would mean that if a particular production had a particular folder and sewing sequence you would get the same seam direction.

Having said that, with single-needle like this there's no folder, so it's just a matter of sewing steps, and with small/unautomated/unregulated production I would have thought this would differ machinist to machinist. Stating the obvious, but when this type of clothing was constructed I would guess none of this would have been considered particularly important!

[Paul T]

Having said that, with single-needle like this there's no folder, so it's just a matter of sewing steps, and with small/unautomated/unregulated production I would have thought this would differ machinist to machinist. Stating the obvious, but when this type of clothing was constructed I would guess none of this would have been considered particularly important!

There seems to be similarity in construction of, say, Levi's from the 1880s and 1890s; but befreo that they were in some cases at least probably made by home-workers, as are many clothes are around the world today, so it's undeniable that some of them would have varied according to the worker.

[Sansome1877]

I've been away, so belated thanks for posting this thread. Mike's book looks to be a groundbreaking contribution to our knowledge of early denim and I can't wait to see it. Like others here, I'm a fan of Rising SUn and love this hook-up, too.

Mike, I've not checked out every page here, how did you match and spec the denim?

Welcome back Paul, At the start of the project (about a year ago) we wanted to develop the denim to be like the original. Much time passed and Mike Hodis found the denim that he used for the A.B Elfelts. You might have to ask Mr. Hodis for more details on the denim. The duck on the Neustadter standard pants, is made from Cone denim. Something of interest, page 172 J Wahls patent for belt loops, we wanted to see if Joseph Wahl was successful. We found Joseph Wahl as a clothing manufacturer in New York, in the late 1890's.

It would now seem that J wahls patent was the reason that you didn't see the general use of belt loops, on other competing brands until after the turn of the century.

[entertainment!]

Mike, I am curious about the construction of the suspender buttons on the pieces you collected. The sewn-on ones that LVC uses in its early repros all have a two piece construction with a front and a back. The front piece is crimped around the edges of the back piece. I have assumed that the two piece construction has to do with ease and cost of manufacturing. Are the buttons on your originals made out of one piece of material?

[Sansome1877]

One piece, 20 years ago I was digging for bottles in a 1875 cabin and found what I thought was a clump of grass. It ended up being a pair of Levi's folded up, the only way I knew this is because I found all of the rivets and suspender buttons. I can dig up the old photos and send them to you so you can post them if you want.

[Dr_Heech]

One piece, 20 years ago I was digging for bottles in a 1875 cabin and found what I thought was a clump of grass. It ended up being a pair of Levi's folded up, the only way I knew this is because I found all of the rivets and suspender buttons. I can dig up the old photos and send them to you so you can post them if you want.

Mike - you must have some fantastic stories to tell.

Which of your discoveries (not just of old jeans) has got your heart rate up fastest?

.

[Sansome1877]

Almost getting killed a few times probably spiked the heart rate the most, but I think the most exciting moment was finding the 1877 levi tool pocket on page 29, totally unexpected.

[Dr_Heech]

Almost getting killed a few times probably spiked the heart rate the most, but I think the most exciting moment was finding the 1877 levi tool pocket on page 29, totally unexpected.

Thanks for that,

will check them out when my book arrives (which should be v.soon)

- Cant wait !

.

[mtchfrnk]

Time for some good whiskey & denim history. Let's do this.

[Sansome1877]

Nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mtchfrnk]

Mike--I've logged about 50 pps. Enjoying the heck out of it. I know I will enjoy returning to reread more slowly.

One immediate pleasure is getting insight into where your various internet handles come from--maybe others have figured it out, but I didn't know the significance of Sansome or of Deadgrass. No spoilers tho. Erryone gets to deduce that one for themselves.

[Sansome1877]

Mike--I've logged about 50 pps. Enjoying the heck out of it. I know I will enjoy returning to reread more slowly.

One immediate pleasure is getting insight into where your various internet handles come from--maybe others have figured it out, but I didn't know the significance of Sansome or of Deadgrass. No spoilers tho. Erryone gets to deduce that one for themselves.

Looks like your enjoying the book and the whiskey. I thought you might be interested to hear that when you are digging for whiskey bottles and you happen to find one, 8 times out of 10 a beer bottle will be next to it. These guys out west chased the whiskey with beer. It would also seem that after these fellows drank the whiskey they put bullets through the bottles.