Jeans of the Old West: A History

[Sansome1877]

Nice videos Sansome! Did you dig out all that denim?

For sure!! No denim left behind! Thanks

[bluegoldblues]

Found this cool supposedly 1800's Levi's belt buckle on eBay was wondering if anyone has any info old vintage levis belt buckles, have read in the past that they are as collectable as jeans but have not really seen evidence of this.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1800s-Vintage-Levi-Bronze-Buckle-Hook-Eye-Closure-/230659354464?pt=Vintage_Men_s_Clothing&hash=item35b45e6f60#ht_500wt_927

[dr.house]

^That's a wonderful buckle, I'm always looking for something like this...unfortunately far too expensive 4 me.

[Sansome1877]

This buckle does look old^^, it's not from the 1800's. I've never done the research, on when the word copper riveted clothing gets changed to original riveted clothing? Levi wasn't using this two horse brand in the 1800's

[tropicalbird]

Didn't they wear suspenders in that period?

[Sansome1877]

Didn't they wear suspenders in that period?

Sure- you wouldn't be wearing a belt on your 501's until after 1921 or 22, not sure at the moment, what year Levi added belt loops. If I had to guess the age of this buckle^- 1930's 40's?

[Sansome1877]

I have to give my wife the credit for this one, she noticed slight changes in the two horse brand- in the first 20 years that it was being used. I think this theory is turning out to be a pretty good tool in dating Levi's from the late 1880's until about 1910 or so. These labels above^^ appears to be what was being used in 1915, I count 5 changes in the two horse brand from 1880's until 1910. (note that copper riveted clothing is still being used and not original riveted clothing- like you see on the belt buckle) Can some one post a #3 label from a lvc piece? How about a lvc 1930's two horse brand label? I'm looking for the change over- when copper riveted clothing turned into original riveted clothing... this would narrow down the date on that buckle.

[Stratos]

Thanks Sansome, must spread, very interesting, nice pics.

[Sansome1877]

Here are a few pictures of the quilt we found last trip out, this was before I started cleaning it up yesterday. It looks like the original quilt was covered over twice, I think 40 to 50 different fabrics are being used. Thanks stratos^^

[Sansome1877]

[robbie]

That is amazing. Almost moreso than the denim you find, this piece is insanely personal. People didn't necessarily go out and buy fabric to make a quilt, they were often scraps. So in addition to the story that this quilt could tell as a unit, imagine all the stories all those individual pieces of fabric could tell too.

So cool, thanks for sharing Mike!

[Sansome1877]

Thanks robbie^^ I think this would go down as, one of my favorite finds by far...It looks like it was being used as a bed roll? Often, these miners would live in the mine, we have seen empty cabins down in mines a few times. A friend told me about his friend, that found a fully furnished cabin in a mine with clothing,dishes,candles and even some gold coins.(sure would like to find something like that!!!)

[Sansome1877]

The top pant is a 1876 A.B Elfelt with a floating pocket much like the one seen on the patent drawing, this pant has sewn suspender and fly buttons. Note the single needle overlapping yolk and small cinch straps...Sory for the picture size roy6:)

[roy6]

^Hadn't you been looking for an Elfelt with a patch? I remember you saying that Rising Sun cooked up a patch for one of the pants they repro'd for you...

[Sansome1877]

^Hadn't you been looking for an Elfelt with a patch? I remember you saying that Rising Sun cooked up a patch for one of the pants they repro'd for you...

I was missing the patch on the Neustadter standard pants, we were able to make an exact copy on the Elfelts.

[rnrswitch]

I love the blue on those elfelts. Are those a recent find?

[Sansome1877]

I love the blue on those elfelts. Are those a recent find?

I found these about two months before you and I met out at the mines( a little over a year ago IIRC) these A.B's were thrown out with a bunch of other clothing, we found newspapers that all dated to December 1876... so I figure everything we found would date before 1877.

[zissou]

I thought you might like to see this, Mike. It's from an alley in the old mining town of Eureka, Utah.

Close up:

[Sansome1877]

Cool photo! I didn't know about this one, I think this would go well in a book we are working on?

[Sansome1877]

Here is the leather backed rivet we found on our last trip, Charla (my wife) found a Levi ad from 1877 that talked about leather backed rivets. It seems to me that the leather backed rivets didn't stay around for long... I've only found leather on the rivets four times??

[Dr_Heech]

Great stuff Mike.

Here's a pic of the repro early leather washer-backed rivet :

Btw, you wanted to know when the words 'copper riveted' changed to 'original' on the leather patch? (or did I misread?)

The change came during WW2.

The wartime Levi's were the first to sport 'original riveted' leather patches.

(I use this method to date type one jackets)

.

[Sansome1877]

Yea, I wanted the info on original v.s copper riveted...Thanks! Nice photo of the reproduction leather backed rivet. My wife turned in the rough draft on the new Japanese book today. Hope to see it out before Christmas?

[Sansome1877]

Thought this might interest a few people, it was written in 1914. When the #2's came about- peaked my interest, and the bit about Levi Strauss making riveted overalls in 1870 interested me also. We found that Levi Strauss was a clothing manufacturer in the 1860's, I do believe that as soon as Levi Strauss filed the patent in 1872... They started manufacturing riveted overalls ( this would explain why the rivets were blank in the beginning. Check out this patent, I thought this was interesting.

[Paul T]

Great story, Mike, it shows hwo essentially modern Levi's were in protection of their brand. One wonders how much of their success was down to comprehensive trademark laws, and how much to their sheer aggression.

As we've discussed before, it seems the leather-backed rivets were used in the more waterproof clothing, hence its use on duck, designed to be more water-resistant.

Hey, it looks like Roy flouted the Schollian patent!

[zissou]

I was just going to say that that cinch back looks familiar

Mike- I'd be happy to send you the high res versions. Just PM me your email address.

[Sansome1877]

Great story, Mike, it shows hwo essentially modern Levi's were in protection of their brand. One wonders how much of their success was down to comprehensive trademark laws, and how much to their sheer aggression.

As we've discussed before, it seems the leather-backed rivets were used in the more waterproof clothing, hence its use on duck, designed to be more water-resistant.

Hey, it looks like Roy flouted the Schollian patent!

I thought you would like that story Paul, Levi probably had some really sharp lawyers, we found some other Levi lawsuits. B&O Greenebaum was sued By Levi in 1878 for making riveted overalls.

I found three examples of leather backed rivets on denim and one duck, all of the pieces I found were late 1870's... so not really sure about duck vs denim?

I doubt Roy knew about the patent, I remember rnr saying that he hadn't seen anything like that... Russ just found that patent so I thought I would post it.

[Paul T]

I was joking re Roy!

Interesting that leather-backed rivets were used on the denim, too.

Obviously rivets were used on saddlery gear, riveted into leather, when Jacob got the idea to use it on workwear, maybe the use of leather was a holdover...

[ThisSunday]

Always such great stuff going on in this thread.

After meeting Mike in LA in June, my gf wants to go to a desert, find a mine and search for old jeans

[Sansome1877]

I was joking re Roy!

Interesting that leather-backed rivets were used on the denim, too.

Obviously rivets were used on saddlery gear, riveted into leather, when Jacob got the idea to use it on workwear, maybe the use of leather was a holdover...

I'll blame not catching that joke on- Lack of sleep and low levels of nicotine and caffeine:D I would like to see if those leather backed rivets show up in the late 1880's...Has to be pretty rare, when you have seen about 200 examples of 1870's and 80's levi's, and only come up with 4 that have leather???

You have to warn your GF about exploring mines anysunday, this shit will turn you into a addict, next thing you know- you'll be looking at houses out in California. Thanks for the kind words.

[Ness]

Sansome, wouldn't you say XX, also known as Number 1, was the first Levi's "label/range" formed in 1896 and was incorporated in 1895 into 501 as opposed to being an Amoskeag named fabric?