The Denim Debate

[rnrswitch]

i've never had anything other than a white collar job and people think i roll around in dirt all day and hike the hymalas.

you'd be surprised if you wore you jeans every day

Damn straight!! But your excuse is that your legs are made of sand paper. Mine are made of milky white smooth lamb skin.

Also, I don't think fades are the be-all-end-all of jean quality. There are beautiful jeans that don't "fade" to sufu standards (ie high contrast whiskers/honeycombs), but still age beautifully with wear. I would like to think my Left Fields tweeds prove that point. (This isn't directed at you Poly.)

[geneticdrifter]

Also, I don't think fades are the be-all-end-all of jean quality. There are beautiful jeans that don't "fade" to sufu standards (ie high contrast whiskers/honeycombs), but still age beautifully with wear. I would like to think my Left Fields tweeds prove that point. (This isn't directed at you Poly.)

those Tweeds prove your point very well, methinks. beautiful and unique jeans. just not exactly sufu-skinny-steez.

Also, i bet the overt fakeness/positive group think critique will never be discussed/answered. not enough people here get/understand the argument and so there is no political capital to be gained by these folks in arguing it. i could make political analogies, but i think the people that matter understand whats happening and read between the lines.

I'm not for sure exactly what you guys are so upset about because another site is trying to create something on a topic you obviously like... this site is not made to replace or compete with the SuFu’s of the world… I just wanted something better looking, easier to operate and where my ignorant new customers won't get "flamed" by people who care BUT instead get pushed into a specific model/brand by "stylemakers" with a clear monetary motive…

Pletty did you read the thread or are you just commenting on what you heard? there are a number of questions asked if you would like to answer.

[Pletty]

I'm sorry that you think new denim customers are ignorant. They are the ones keeping these companies that you apparently love so much in business. As for my friends (the contributors) that own shops and/or represent brands (2 of nearly 30) of course they are wearing the jeans that they like... even if they are brands they work for or sell. I hope that our readers will ask questions and be able to determine for themselves what they like... there is zero money being paid by these brands, in fact most brands have zero to do with the Debate. There will be a Supporters page that allows people to submit photos and other info once I have the time to build out more features, as well as more brands and contributors that are not listed up yet. Please wait for some of the content to go live before jumping to conclusions. (This information was posted in the comment thread on the site).

I'm guessing this is going to be a lost cause to continue chatting here... if you'd like to actually provide some feedback, comment on the site, otherwise I guess you can continue the negativity on this thread. I’ll be on my site trying to make it better. Thanks for the positive feedback from some of you!

[Stacks]

Wow I was gone over the weekend and just caught up on this thread...smh

I only posted in the first place because OP said discuss and while the site says it's purpose is to appeal to denim snobs (and newbies alike), there are some aspects of it that (as a self proclaimed denim snob) had the exact opposite effect.

There are a bunch of "pros" that I guess I felt were not worth mentioning because they were so obvious but probably should have so as to not instigate a riot: obviously the more evolution pics of denim the better, there are a couple of brands as nice as the sufu favorites that will be interesting to see progressions of, etc.

I hope the site is successful, though, seriously... more exposure is always good in the end.

[mpcec]

those Tweeds prove your point very well, methinks. beautiful and unique jeans. just not exactly sufu-skinny-steez.

Also, i bet the overt fakeness/positive group think critique will never be discussed/answered. not enough people here get/understand the argument and so there is no political capital to be gained by these folks in arguing it. i could make political analogies, but i think the people that matter understand whats happening and read between the lines.

Pletty did you read the thread or are you just commenting on what you heard? there are a number of questions asked if you would like to answer.

You fail to understand that you aren't entitled to any answers and the way you construct your criticisms/questions just leaves people rolling their eyes. If you actually care about getting answers then you should rephrase your questions and learn to edit yourself. For someone who seems so interested in debating you are completely inept when it comes to making the other party interested in answering you.

[Pletty]

You fail to understand that you aren't entitled to any answers and the way you construct your criticisms/questions just leaves people rolling their eyes. If you actually care about getting answers then you should rephrase your questions and learn to edit yourself. For someone who seems so interested in debating you are completely inept when it comes to making the other party interested in answering you.

was this to me? Thanks...

[rnrswitch]

Pletty, Check your PMs.

[Pletty]

Pletty, Check your PMs.

Thanks got it...

[haptronic]

while i think that the concept for the site might be good. the choice of participants will mean that i for one will probably find little reason to return to the site again for a look.

the new concept of bloggers as taste makers seems somewhat akin to the idea of sampling a sample to create a beat, while you may get something that sounds interesting isn't it really too lo fi to be truly useful for wider application.

when i personally think of denim taste makers it is the touitou's who have been making basically the same plain raw denim since the 80's, to the point where if anyone is looking to start a denim brand mostly chose between a vintage 501 fit or the standard/new standard as a starting point [it is widely said that the oft knocked off fit of hedi silame's dior jeans are taken from the new standard].

once we take away the obvious puffery that the participants on denim debate are in fact tastemakers, i believe rather than any kind of 'groupthink' the advantage of an open forum such as superdenim is that most everyone can participate, there are new brands that crop up and find a welcome audience.

[geneticdrifter]

You fail to understand that you aren't entitled to any answers and the way you construct your criticisms/questions just leaves people rolling their eyes. If you actually care about getting answers then you should rephrase your questions and learn to edit yourself. For someone who seems so interested in debating you are completely inept when it comes to making the other party interested in answering you.

this is great. okay so lets concede everything you're saying. all of it. exclude my posts from this thread, 100%

did anyone answer stacks' questions?

would you like to?

or are you picking the easy target here. yes i'm abrasive and willing to just say what i want. and....?

i think its great that you are giving free formality lessons on the.... internet. thumbs up!

i don't think i'm entitled to any answers. i'm not begging anyone. I'm not beating on someones door or stalking. so if you read my expectation of debate from someone who started or entered... a debate... as entitlement, my bad. Sorry for not living up to your standard of internet forum etiquette.

@pletty - run boy. run. again exclude my posts and answer stacks's questions.

ignorant means to not know. one of the intentions of your site is to attract new people who don't know about denim or the denim's being pushed with positive group think? so by definition some of these new folks will be ignorant.

as defined by webster's: 1 a : destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics> b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence <ignorant errors>

[mr.invincible]

i remember when i ordered my jeans from BiG i got an unexpected call from Gordon.

I didn't know it was him, but when he introduce himself, it was like talking to a celebrity.

but on the side note, i agree that they should allow others to get on. but then we already have the denim archive which is pretty neat. to be honest, i'll probably check that out more than this because I don't know anyone there.

[grooveholmes]

this thread has devolved. dumb.

[geneticdrifter]

well no one wants to actually enter the debate. just taking pot shots from the peanut gallery and labeling people with opposing views seems to be enough.

the questions, yet unanswered:

Oh ok, I get it, if your opinions are positive you can post in here because that qualifies as discussion, but if your opinion is negative it's group think crap and you're overthinking it.

I need to say my piece on this. I buy from kiya/selfedge; I don't have an ax to grind, but it's pretty frustrating to have your opinion immediately dismissed as "group think crap" by someone who has some sort of business connection (advertising space) to the site up for "discussion." It's especially ironic when that groupthink dismissal gets quote echoed by one of that person's biggest fans on this board.

I don't mind having an unpopular opinion; I don't mind when that opinion is attacked but I do mind when it's dismissed with a tired kneejerk one line response. So in an effort to have an actual discussion here, let me pose some questions:

What unique value do you think "tastemakers" bring to the denim "debate?" Do you think their status as "tastemakers" makes their opinion more honest, or more useful to denim consumers, than the opinions of other consumers?

Do you think there is a real "gap" between denim brands and denim consumers? What constitutes this gap? Is it simply technical information on the production process and materials or is there something more?

Is it admirable to make a connection with a brand rather than with an individual product?

I have my opinions but I think I'll wait until I get some responses so I don't promote more groupthink.

[Pletty]

1.) The reason the Contributor’s opinion matters is because I know them and trust them. That’s it. I don’t know you, therefore how exactly was I supposed to reach out to you and see what audience you could bring and gain some traction on your style. I don’t have the time to run through these types of forums so I went with people I trust that’s it...didn’t I state that I don’t spend much time on here? It has nothing to do with this site. It works great for people who already know about it, but the normal consumer will not look to this or style forum to scroll through 28 pages of comments to find some lingering post about sizing down in APCS…

2.) There is a gap, it's a perception gap, and my nine years of brand management and retail marketing may have helped me come to this conclusion. I think you guys fail to realize how small this sector is. I'm trying to make it bigger, not waste time fighting with the 1% that are already in great denim. You guys know this stuff, we understand that. But the Denim archive is site based on the finish line, great denim. I want to help people understand how to size, purchase, and wear in and care for great denim.

3.) I hope that you love brands and not just products. I want you make a connection with them, and more importantly feel like you are a part of that brand; otherwise I'd probably not work in marketing.

[milosz]

3.) I hope that you love brands and not just products. I want you make a connection with them, and more importantly feel like you are a part of that brand; otherwise I'd probably not work in marketing.

Ugh. (10 char)

[Pletty]

Ugh. (10 char)

haha... this is hopeless... next someone will say that we shouldn't support brands... hilarious

[TallyHo]

with all the calling out and bickering, i think the real issue here has been overlooked entirely: the denimdebate site was created with the notion that high-end, raw, and/or selvedge denim would appeal to a larger demographic, if only people knew more about it. it presupposes there is a lack of information or exposure to these brands and that is why it is such a niche market. "surely, if john doe knew that these jeans were made on *old shuttle looms* by *japanese artisans* with *texas cotton* dipped *27 times* in *natural indigo* vats, he too would go right out and buy a pair!"

but is that really true? i would say not even close. i see the potential for "selvedge" and "raw" jeans to blow up in a more mainstream demographic, but only at gap or levis (non-LVC) price ranges. of course, i might be short-sighted. kiya has got to know more about this than any of us, as i'm pretty sure he quadrupled the japanese denim buying market in the US with his marketing techniques and so forth. it's what we all respect and hate him for, right? (i keed i keed! no hate!)

what i can say from personal experience is when i wanted to know more about selvedge denim, i did not have a hard time finding superfuture, and i did not have a hard time understanding it. i bet there's a correlation between how much time you're willing to put into researching jeans and how much money you're willing to spend on them. just because you put OOEs in front of the general population doesn't mean anyone is going to put in any orders for $300+ jeans where they have to research the fits and fabrics and choose everything themselves.

so mr. Pletty, i say: if this is a labor of love, or the self edge ad revenue is enough to sustain you, then keep it up! if you think you're gonna tap into a whole new denim-fiend demographic that has never heard of superfuture, then you might be in for a surprise. then again, i might be in for one too.

---------

haha... this is hopeless... next someone will say that we shouldn't support brands... hilarious

this exact topic cause quite a rift in the mister freedom thread a while back. i said then (and will say again now) that it is awesome when you find a brand you can identify with and feel like they make garments that perfectly capture your sense of style or identity; however, if you ever accept every garment from a brand simply because it has their tag on it - you're a real chump.

[geneticdrifter]

1.) It works great for people who already know about it, but the normal consumer will not look to this or style forum to scroll through 28 pages of comments to find some lingering post about sizing down in APCS…

2.) There is a gap, it's a perception gap, and my nine years of brand management and retail marketing may have helped me come to this conclusion. I think you guys fail to realize how small this sector is. I'm trying to make it bigger, not waste time fighting with the 1% that are already in great denim. You guys know this stuff, we understand that. But the Denim archive is site based on the finish line, great denim. I want to help people understand how to size, purchase, and wear in and care for great denim.

3.) I hope that you love brands and not just products. I want you make a connection with them, and more importantly feel like you are a part of that brand; otherwise I'd probably not work in marketing.

first, let me say thank you, for having the gumption/nerve/integrity to answer the questions. I hope the other people who have taken pot shots and/or ran from the debate can follow your lead. Honestly, i may disagree with you on some issues but i respect you for answering the questions. Bravo!

@#1 - i'm not sure your answering the question exactly but they aren't my questions so i won't try to enunciate them, BUT, you do acknowledge the ignorance your target audience has, about denim if nothing else? So then you can understand how your site looks like it might be taking advantage of said ignorance, by posing marketers/business owners as peers to these ignorant new consumers...?

@#2 - isn't what you are saying that you want to tell ignorant folks how to wear the clothes you're marketing? this is your goal, i realize that. I don;t think thats its a bad goal or that you won't be successful.

NOTE: you seem to be answering the questions like you think the people here are butt hurt about your site. I, for one, am not. do your thang, but don't expect people to not call a duck, a duck. You are advertising. My opinion is, We don't need anymore hispters. More people making great products, YES. we need that, but you aren't creating products. (this is being discussed in another thread, and i would love to hear your thoughts: whats the line to draw between hype (jungle cloth!) and honest product promotion (bringing the world a new mouse trap). thread here: http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk/showthread.php?t=195944

Again, you are taking the heat for other people's words. I commend you.

@#3 - you're staying true to your roots as an advertiser. i feel you. i don't think the world or the markets, benefit from the hype but, you need to eat too, and people pay you for it with out the use of guns or masks, so.....

frankly i think advertisers would do better to just give away more free product and spend less on advertising. or just lower costs with the advertising money. i feel like the hype will just lead us to bubbles. meaning businesses will come to markets as they get hot and drive quality through the basement as the bubble pops. i think over-hypping anything is counter productive.

so yes your gimmick/pitch is going to work, with some people, but did you really expect a different response from this audience, especially the way it was delivered here? Again its commendable of you to take up this conversation when you did. methinks you would have been a better representative for your vision, tho. +rep

[milosz]

haha... this is hopeless... next someone will say that we shouldn't support brands... hilarious

Oh god no! Not that.

I still stand with Bill Hicks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo

There are some brands that make cool things I enjoy - Warehouse, Denime, Full Count, LVC, White's. But I don't care about the companies themselves or their marketing - they're a route for money to travel from my pocket to someone else's. If they fold, someone else will serve my needs. If Warehouse stops doing repros and only makes skintight leopard print bell botttoms, I'm not going to buy them (or for a less extreme example, if they start making primarily 19cm cuts). If LVC's quality plummets like a rock, I'm not supporting them, no matter how much I respect the history of the Levi 501.

[LC_Miey]

I don't support brands, never have and never will. I support good products, but don't care where they are coming from.

quoted for truth.

if i like the product, I buy the product and have good things to say about the brand.

support brand as in brand loyalty? sorry im not included.

brand loyalty actually the 'idea' and image marketing/retailers try to sell to get a strong base of customers.

[TheIntelligentHoodwinker]

1.)It works great for people who already know about it, but the normal consumer will not look to this or style forum to scroll through 28 pages of comments to find some lingering post about sizing down in APCS…

Personally, I think you're underestimating your target audience. The kind of people who want to see how $300 jeans age are, lets face it, mostly male with that semi-autistic gene that most of us seem to have. No matter how 'time-poor' we all claim to be, we all fill gaps in our day with whatever weird obsessions we have. Could be football, bikes, music, DIY, cars, denim. Whatever. And there are message board communities for all of them.

I would, and indeed HAVE, scrolled though 100+ pages of Samurai denim posts to help me find a fit and see how they looked after wear. I was going to fork out a large amount of money for a pair jeans, and wanted to get an overview from the dozens of people here who owned the pair I was planning on buying.

if you think you're gonna tap into a whole new denim-fiend demographic that has never heard of superfuture, then you might be in for a surprise. then again, i might be in for one too.

This basically sums up what I think.

The major advantage of Superfuture over what you're offering is that it is infinitely scalable in terms of brands it can potentially cover, and everyone can join in and feel part of it, which I think is key.

[geneticdrifter]

@LC-miey and tallyho - must spread.

@hoodwinker - +rep

@iamstarwars - +rep

[poly800rock]

i'm curious why people are so up in arms about this. if you like it, you'll view it, if not, why bother. it's not like anyone there is selling out your favorite denim brand (not that it matters anyways). Honestly, I don't find the site any less irritating than any of the 5 zillion contest or tour threads we got going on here in superdenim. It's denim guys, relax.

[geneticdrifter]

It's denim guys, relax.

i love this sentiment. We should just all relax and wear STF's. no more nights wrestling over which fit or which denim or what knife to EDC... just relax.

So how far should we take this mantra, wise one?

its just fake, relax?

its just made in china, relax?

Its just pollution, relax?

its just child porn, relax?

its just not runway enough,....<gulp> ...relax? really? are you sure?

Its an internet forum, are we not allowed to share ideas? Especially in a thread started with the words: Debate and Discussion? did you read the thread? i don't think anyone is crying about the site itself. People were disturbed by how it was being represented/marketed/pushed with positive group think; by its own words on the site, and by Kiya when he started the thread here.

smh.

[kiya]

genetic, I'm glad to see that this Denim Debate website has given meaning to your life.

[poly800rock]

You are advertising. My opinion is, We don't need anymore hispters. More people making great products, YES. we need that, but you aren't creating products. (this is being discussed in another thread, and i would love to hear your thoughts: whats the line to draw between hype (jungle cloth!) and honest product promotion (bringing the world a new mouse trap). thread here: http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk/showthread.php?t=195944

i love this quote here, frankly, when have you owned the patent for raw denimz?

are you afraid raw denim is going to sell out and blow up?

[akka225]

It's disappointing to see that Kiya decided to check out of this thread and not respond to any of the concerns here.

[milosz]

I'm not sure why he would. He isn't involved with the Denim Debate people, aside from advertising (which Self Edge does on just about every denim-related site and blog/zine), from what I can tell.

[kiya]

It's disappointing to see that Kiya decided to check out of this thread and not respond to any of the concerns here.

Not sure if you've noticed but Denim Debate has nothing to do with me, i merely started a thread about it because it's Superdenim relevant.

[geneticdrifter]

kiya, i'm glad i found out what kind of guy you are before i gave you any money.

It is... disappointing to say the least, that questions on the internet frighten you so much, that you can't stand by your own words like pletty did. That wo/man has some integrity. He might not have legions of adoring fans like you but he can call it like it is and stand on two feet like a man.

**(from an advertisers perspective he has got to love you for the killer promotion you did for him here.)**

shit talk me all you want. You eat off this, you know how it reads. You can act like you don't care, or don't see it, but we know you do.