Milling Denim

[Medine]

I dunno if there's already a thread for this (ive done a slight search)

but i'm interested if anyone has any info about the actual milling of denim?

im talking cotton to yarn. dying the yarn(synthetic vs. natural indigo.) and then actually looming the yarn into fabric (i dont even know if this is the real process)

so anyone know what goes on start to finish?

[mpcec]

I'll give this a bump. I don't really know shit about the process but i'm interested as well. One of the SA's at BiG once told me about the difference between synthetic and natural indigo but I don't really recall. I think she said that there were something like only four people who were certified to do natural indigo dyes in Japan. Anyone have more info on that?

E: here's a couple things I found via the Encyclopaedia. I'm sure some people will find this interesting:

"Is it harder to break in natural indigo dyed raw denim than a pair that is made out of synthetic? my edo ai looks like it hasn't faded a bit."

A good question and something I'm keen to learn more about.

Comparisons between the two have been made ever since Basiche Anilin Soda Fabric (BASF) put Adolf Von Baeyer's synthetic 'pure indigo' on the market in 1897.

I strongly suspect that the performance of your Edo's is due to the dyeing method rather than the differences between synthetic and natural indigo. As pointed out above, there is no chemical difference between the two - in fact, according to the esteemed indigo historian, J Balfour Paul, even dye chemists cannot tell the difference between the two.

Natural indigo and synthetic indigo produce the same blue because they are the same. Which leads to the obvious question of 'why aren't all jeans the same colour then?' - which I'll get to later.

The trouble is when making these type of comparisons, you're rarely comparing like with like. The playing field is rarely level. Indigo is an inherently unstable dye that will change with exposure to air, humidity, temperature etc. Fluctuations in dyeing methods will cause different results even between separate lots of the same synthetic indigo. So things can have the same ingredients and be different. Heidi Klum and Jimmy Krankie may have the virtually same DNA but they look different

For example, natural indigo jeans tend to be the flagship styles from these denim brands, so I would expect that they have undergone a dyeing process far in excess of most denim, even other denim from their own collections. eg. more dips, more oxidation time, rope dyed instead of slasher dyed etc.

Then there's the impurities in natural indigo. Some, like indurubin (indigo red), tannins, flavanoids etc. are naturally occurring, others such as madder, carbon (indian ink), wood bark, weird stuff like red ants etc that are added by man.

My own experiences also vary and the opinions of people I'd consider genuine denim experts also have differed a lot. Some people tell me that natural indigo fades quicker, and that you can't achieve as dark blues with plant indigos, others have told me the opposite.

Some natural indigo jeans tend to hold on to their colour amazingly well despite frequent washing (eg 45rpm Aihikos, which also barely crock), others develop whiskers very quickly (Sugarcane Hawaii's, which crock like crazy). Modern natural indigo denim from mills like Tavex & Orta Anadulu seem to behave in very similar ways to their synthetic counterparts. (I believe they use Indian Indigofera Tintoria as the plant source).

Then of course many synthetic indigo jeans also fade faster than others.

"The source of the indigo can make a difference - I'm sure I've been told that indigo from the Far East is capable of giving a darker shade than that from europe, because it derives from different plants species."

That's probably a reference to Woad (isatis tintoria) versus Tade-Ai (polygonum tinctorium, or chinese indigo - most likely the source of indigo for those Edo Ai's). When fermented using the same traditional methods, the polygonum produces a far higher indigo yield. Woad also doesn't dye cellulose fibres like cotton as well as other plant indigo sources. Then there's a whole bunch of different woad species as well as many other Asian indigo plants (eg Strobilanthes flaccidifolius - the source of indigo used in Sugarcan Okinawa's), so again the possibilities for differences in vast.

"I have, however, seen early 1900s natural denim jeans on which the fade is fantastic."

Very likely to be a different dye source to the Edo Ai's, most probably from Indigofera Carolininiana - the species of Indigofera used commercially in North America, and different dyeing methods.

" in lay man's terms is there any premium natural indigo dyed jeans deserve over synthetic indigo dyed?"

Where natural indigo has it's value is it's historical heritage. You're directly connected with probably the most important dye ever discovered, with a deep and widespread history from ancient Egypt to the present day. Natural indigo will have graced Viking raiders to Napoleon's armies, Persian rugs to Medievel tapestries, the Emperors' of China to the blue collar (term derived from indigo) workers that made Levi Strauss his fortune. So if you have an historical and/or botanical interest in plant derived indigo, then the premium may be worth it.

That's not to say that synthetic indigo doesn't have a fascinating history of it's own - albeit much, much shorter. And of course there are plenty of jeans that use fantastic quality, synthetic dyed denim.

Again, many brands may use their natural indigo jeans as their flagship styles - so they make take extra care over them - again adding perceived value.

But if you're not interested in indigo's provenance, then I'm not convinced that natural indigo will have necessarily a better colour or fade better than synthetic indigo. (the extra care taken to produce some natural indigo denim notwithstanding).

Edited by ringring on May 17, 2006 at 07:50 AM

Also Medine, not sure if you saw this but I thought it'd be of particular interest to you since you're doing the LVC tour. Here's a thread on LVC- Natural v Synthetic.

[Medine]

thanks, michael...

anyoone else have any info on the actual weaving of denim fabric (like exactly what looms some companys use, etc)

[TLCA]

this is an interesting thread, I'd like to see some pictures of the process, especially the natural indigo dying process.

[VY Canis Majoris]

This is definitely something I'm really interested to know more about.

[Paul T]

Loom nerds go here

[rockon99]

ive been wanting to actually build - by hand - a loom. i've got different designs already. just need to build it then figure out how to dye the yarn. i probably wouldnt do the whole cotton >> yarn thing, but maybe. i've wanted to make my own pair for ever. hopes and dreams of momotaro hand loomed steez. even though i'd probably never be that good - or have access to such high quality materials. one never knows..........

good thread man, +rep

edit: rep when i get a chance - must spread

[dralfonzo]

jesus ringrings posts give me a chub on, I wish I was around when he posted more frequently.

p.s. the thread that Paul linked is packed full of good info.

[Medine]

so is there a machine that turns the cotton into yarn? or how is this process done?

[DrMoBueno]

about a year or so ago, kiya posted a link to youtube of the denim dyeing process. shoulda bookmarked it, because i can't find it... maybe he'll re-post.

anyhow, i was surprised to learn indigo is yellow until it hits oxygen. really strange seeing the denim go in this yellow vat and slowly get lifted out blue...

when i soak a truly disgusting pair, i look at all the yellow and comfort myself, "it's not accumulated filth, it's just the indigo. you're alright."

[amardeep]

I'd really like to go to one of these milling facilities and check it out in person.

I think there's a plant in Atlanta in addition to the ones in NC that Paul's thread is about that's been there for a century and a half or so, definitely checking that out next time I'm near and taking pics.

[pacioli]

The yellow from your soak is not indigo. Mostly starch and other slashing and finishing chemicals.

about a year or so ago, kiya posted a link to youtube of the denim dyeing process. shoulda bookmarked it, because i can't find it... maybe he'll re-post.

anyhow, i was surprised to learn indigo is yellow until it hits oxygen. really strange seeing the denim go in this yellow vat and slowly get lifted out blue...

when i soak a truly disgusting pair, i look at all the yellow and comfort myself, "it's not accumulated filth, it's just the indigo. you're alright."

[amardeep]

another synthetic vs natural thread-

http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk/showthread.php?t=11213

[Guest Selvage Seb.]

Probably most of you guys have seen this video before, but I think it's worth to post it in this thread.

It shows you pretty good how they extract natural indigo

hXeectd1GSM

[pacioli]

This Fashion Incubator post by Kathleen Fasanella will add some dimension to discussions here: http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/pop-quiz-denim-quality-pt-2/

copy and paste:

Pop Quiz: Denim Quality pt. 2

Posted by Kathleen Fasanella on Nov 11, 2009 at 3:28 pm / Pop Quiz, Quality / Trackback

I just realized I didn’t make an official-like announcement of the answer to the denim pop quiz last week. I did mention it in the denim laundry contractor posts (pt one, pt two) but not everyone may have seen it. For the record, the darker denim is Japanese. The contractor I interviewed thought it was better quality.

However, I wasn’t satisfied with the frame of the debate. It seemed this quality pronouncement was a matter of fashion, not fact. No one definitively explained the superiority of the Japanese goods. All anyone mentioned were preference factors, differences in weight, finish, and to some extent dyeing. A better comparison weighs characteristics across the gamut of consumer expectations for quality, price and performance. I just can’t see a cowboy working a ranch in those high dollar Japanese denims. On that scale, the latter is inferior quality. This is why I say pronouncing the Japanese denim as higher quality seemed like a value (fashion) judgment rather than a precise qualitative (fact) one.

So, knowing me as you do, I had to ask some textile engineers and manufacturers for their opinions. While all the responses I received said much as I expected, the most succinct, complete and even humorous and surprising response came from consultant John Strickland (resume, pdf), reprinted in its entirety below:

——————-

First off let me get my biases on the table. As a general rule merchandisers, designers, and stylists at the denim labels don’t know the technical aspects of fabric, constructions, or dye shades. They usually muck it up pretty good. There are a few exceptions out there but they are few and far between. For years I have heard this group spout about “x†denim being the best. Early on it was Japanese, later Italian, and now Turkish. They seem to forget all the foreign makers learned their craft from the Americans. So now you know where I stand. For many of my years at Cone Denim I was one of two who taught “Denim 101″ where we brought in customers -usually merchandisers, designers, and stylists- to educate them on the history and the technical details of denim; stuff they need to know.

Denim comes in wide array of qualities to fit the price points needed for the target market. You can divide the fabric groupings into as many slices as you want but generally you can split it into three groups.

1. The $18 to $25 jean for the mass retailers is made on coarse reeds (fewer ends per inch) with coarse warp and fill yarns. The yarns are open end and are not as strong and not as soft but it fits the market. Some might call this denim crap but for a $20 jean it serves it purpose. If anyone tries to make an expensive jean out of this, more power to them. It just will not meet expectations for construction, hand, wash, etc. It is commodity denim.

2. I like to think of the second group as the jeans that fall into the $35 to $100 range at the major brands. These are more highly constructed on a tighter reed and are made from finer yarns. The low end of this range can be open end yarn in both warp and fill and the high end of this range will be ring spun yarns in both warp in fill. In between will be fabrics with ring spun warp and open end fill. Most of the stretch fabrics fall into this category as well. I will not go into it here but you need to have knowledge of denim history and how it changed from work wear to fashion to appreciate what is being done in this category. The gold standard that the denim eroticas aspire to is the old narrow fly shuttle loom fabrics with the woven selvage made up until the 1970’s that has all the flaws and character that everyone wants. The fabrics in this category use the old fly shuttle fabrics for inspiration. They are not the same but look really good anyway. The fabrics are woven on wide high speed looms. The yarns, both open end and ring spun, have computer generated slubs to give the look of the poor quality uneven yarns from the old days. The dye shades are more sophisticated/complicated and allow for some great looking washes.

3. The last group is denim made for jeans that cost more than $100. This is where the denim eroticas hang out. These fabrics will have ring spun yarns in both the warp and fill. These will include the better fabrics from the second group made on wide high speed looms AND the old narrow fly shuttle fabrics made on the old Draper X2 and X3 looms. Cone Denim still has a group of X3 looms making the narrow fly shuttle selvage fabrics. This is what the Japanese have tried to copy. There is a myth that the Japanese bought up all the American fly shuttle looms making denim as they were replaced with new technology. Not true. The Japanese loom makers tried to match the Draper loom and came close but did not get it exact. The American mills make the best denim in the world but there is no doubt that the Japanese, Italians, and Turks have done a great job in catching up.

So to return to your comments, I have to say there is no inherent superiority in Japanese, Italian, or Turkish denim. It does boil down to preference in weight, finish, and dye shade (and I will add construction to this). There are thousands of choices to pick from and matching a desired end look to the appropriate style and shade of denim to provide that desired end look can be a daunting task. It is hard to make a commodity denim look like a high end denim but it fairly easy to take a high end denim and make it look like commodity if you don’t know what you are doing.

[ringring]

so is there a machine that turns the cotton into yarn? or how is this process done?

Yes, there is a machine, or rather a series of machines that turn cotton into yarn. The machines basically replicate the process you'd go through if doing things by hand, albeit with much sophistication to achieve stringent quality controls.

The cotton is delivered to the mill in bales. The process begins in the blow room where the fibres are sucked up into machines for cleaning, blowing and carding before going on to be spun and then, in the case of denim, yarn dyed, woven and finally finished.

The links below may be of interest to you. They make exactly the type of machines you are asking about.

http://www.marzoli.it

http://www.rieter.com

[Guest Selvage Seb.]

Oh, and by the way.. here is another very informative thread about the milling of denim

Including HQ detailed pictures

http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk/showthread.php?t=151770

Repost of member ZK4025

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[Guest Selvage Seb.]

If you really want to know everything about the proces of weaving, milling, dying and printing of fabrics..

from fibre till a ready to wear garment,

I would recommend to buy this book

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Clothing-Technology-Eberle-Von/dp/3808562242

Explains almost everything;

twisting yarns, open end vs ring spun, finishing fabrics.. you name it!