Selvedge Denim

[wild_whiskey]

Quote: if I use the same thread, and keep the stitch length and tension the same, then you'd be hard pressed to tell which was done by which.

Good point, but anyone on these forums posting about the intracacies of selvage denim is definitely what I would consider a hard presser. You do not think that the old machine would be more prone to error, and that perhaps the stitches might not be entirely consistent because of possibly lower mechanical integrity? Do you not think that the older loom might do an ever-so-slightly sloppier job of weaving the yarn?

I understand that the yarn and dyeing are the important aspects of creating the texture, character and imperfections in the jeans, but when all these variables are the same, I DO believe that you will be able to tell the difference between two different sheets of denim that were woven on two different looms, and perhaps correctly predict which sheet came from which loom.

Of course, I'm very open to the possibility of being wrong, otherwise I wouldn't be discussing it. And youre right, I do love analogies.

[ringring]

I DO believe that you will be able to tell the difference between two different sheets of denim that were woven on two different looms, and perhaps correctly predict which sheet came from which loom.

I guess the best way to try that out would be to cut some squares from the middle of a roll of 2 different widths of the 'same quality' denim. Say 5"x5" inch squares. If it was simple to predict the denim from a narrow loom, then you should be able, for example, to put just 1 selvage swatch into a mix of 50 'non selvage' swatches and pull out the correct piece of fabric!

My money would be against even the hardest of 'hard pressers' who have posted about 'intracacies of selvage denim' on this forum. I'd bet against myself too!

Remember, if the denim mill itself promises to deliver the same quality in two different widths, then they must be confident that their fabric will pass the scrutiny of denim professionals (designers, fabric reps, production companies etc).

Regarding looms making sloppier weaving: Denim mills do their own QC, mistakes get marked up, and if the roll of denim has more than an agreed tolerance percentage then it won't be accepted. It would be against the mills' interests to produce sloppily woven fabric. Buyers would not accept fabric that was 'prone to errors'. It would reflect badly on the ability of the mill to control it's own production.

Good to talk with you as always.

Edited by ringring on Mar 28, 2005 at 12:39 AM

[wild_whiskey]

Quote: Good to talk with you as always.

Likewise, thanks for the knowledge as always.

On the whole, I can't really argue anymore on this, it's quite hopeless to try - you've got every angle covered. I'm convinced, I will now go about slashing all the selvage edges off my jeans and I'll only buy non-selvage, like a cynical cult hater. Kidding. Kind of makes me more appreciative of selvage, since I know now that it is unnecessary and done only to perpetuate the historical attraction, even at greater cost to the label (or perhaps as a gimmick to the less educated).

[haresh]

have these brands been mentioned :

rag-bone - Japanese selvegde,made in USA

Atelier L'Adurance - french crafted of Japanese denim

haresh

[johnmc]

Does anyone know if new narrow shuttle looms are being manufactured? It seems to me they must be with so many companies making jeans with selvage, they can't all be made on the old looms bought up by people like Yamane in the 70's and 80's. Some of the older 30's and 40's looms are only capable of producing one roll of denim a day.

[ringring]

Haresh - have Atelier La Durance started making selvage jeans now? Last time I looked through a rail of their stuff it was all non-selvage Japanese denim. Lovely denim though (and a prime example of quality non selvage denim for Wild Whiskey LOL).

Do the Rag & Bone selvage jeans have chain-stitched hems? Just curious. (their non selvage jeans don't).

[wild_whiskey]

John, there is at least one company in Hong Kong that manufactures Shuttle Looms, but that is all that I know of.

[philipo]

How do I identify selvedge denim? I just bought me a pair of IJIN Material, and they are really really nice (in my opinion atleast), but I dont know, if they are selvedge or not.

I have some pictures of them at this adress:

http://81.7.135.211/racescoot/adly/ijin/

They are quite simular in fabric to my Evisu's and also a bit to my Yen's... But im not sure if they are selvedge (I'm a denim-rookie).

Edited by philipo on Mar 29, 2005 at 01:14 PM

[johnmc]

No selvage:

http://81.7.135.211/racescoot/adly/ijin/ijin2%20005.jpg

selvage:

Edited by johnmc on Mar 29, 2005 at 03:10 PM

[urban sprawl]

uniglo: well it is inexpensive but i heard that they use b-quality selvedge denim. i dunno if it’s true or not (but who cares?;p)

to ringring and wildwhiskey:

we were talking about using the same denim (same yarn-count, construction, twill, indigo dye) but weaving it in 2 different looms: shuttle loom vs jet loom.

i have to agree w/ ringring that the difference is not that big but i still believe in the difference and that there’s a difference.

wild whiskey pointed out that the shuttle looms might weave a “sloppier imperfect†denim – and that’s true. speed makes the difference! it doesn’t necessarily make the quality lower if it’s woven faster as on a jet loom (given the above mentioned criteria) but that slowness gives the weave a looser tension. hence, this provides a certain drapey-ness and a nicer hand. it provides w/ more texture due to the irregularities and damages which you will not get from the wider looms. it is totally an aesthetic value than rather a performance value. and not to mention the beautiful selvedge in herself.

in the wider loom, yes you will also have probably good and interesting texture but no imperfection, no wabi.

jet looms such as water or air jets can not weave closed-selvedges. the fabric will obviously have a selvedge (as any other fabric) but won’t be closed as on the shuttle looms. also the possibilities that you will get a not so well-constructed denim on the narrower loom is generally higher – or let’s say that it’s almost true that all selvedge denim has a higher quality construction.

ringring, you made a good point and made me think and ponder about the notion of selvedge. you almost broke my ideals… thank you for that train of thought and stimuli!

wild w, believe in selvedge and her mysticism, her beauty, her majesty…hehe i do.

[urban sprawl]

ringring: nice, chainstitch @ inside hem! also nice single-needle @ inside back pocket opening...;p

wild whiskey: who are they in hk w/ the shuttle looms? any 411?

johnmc: all (closed) selvedge denim are woven from shuttle looms. i don't know any of these "new ones" but am curious if they remake them. actually they aren't many mill-companies who do selvedge. first of all there aren't many machines, secondly because of economic reasons, and lastly the lead time is so long.

the problem is that more and more people request or are into selvedge (such as paper denim) but can't "get" it, which maybe is not so bad right?

eg. cone mills, they started it but now they regret they sold'em all to japan and can only make 10.000yards a month...o well.

Edited by urban sprawl on Mar 29, 2005 at 08:50 PM

[I J F]

Where cone mills all sold from San Francisco, and for a minimal sum too?

M. U. F. C.

[ringring]

wild whiskey pointed out that the shuttle looms might weave a “sloppier imperfect†denim – and that’s true. speed makes the difference! it doesn’t necessarily make the quality lower if it’s woven faster as on a jet loom (given the above mentioned criteria) but that slowness gives the weave a looser tension. hence, this provides a certain drapey-ness and a nicer hand. it provides w/ more texture due to the irregularities and damages which you will not get from the wider looms. it is totally an aesthetic value than rather a performance value. and not to mention the beautiful selvedge in herself.

Urban Sprawl: Firstly, I wholeheartedly agree with you that the beautiful selvedge finish is a good enough reason to admire selvage jeans alone. I love the way it gives a clean finish to the outseam (it's also nice to have a clean fell'd inseam, like 5EPs and Howies).

Regarding looms and looser tension. It's simple to set up any loom, narrow or wide with looser tension.

As for selvedge denim somehow having more drapey-ness and a nicer hand, I believe this varies from article to article. For example, I have a pair of selvedge Denime's that are amongst the most course and stiff jeans that I have ever owned despite prolonged wear n wash...

Like I have repeated said, if a denim mill itself is willing to proclaim that it can make the same article of denim in two different widths, then they must be very confident that it is so. Otherwise, buyers' would presumably point out that the mills were talking nonsense.

Uniglo: well it is inexpensive but i heard that they use b-quality selvedge denim. i dunno if it’s true or not (but who cares?;p).

At around US$56 a pair, with selvedge coin pocket, chain stitched hems and edge stitched bar tacks, I agree, who indeed cares. In fact, if the denim wasn't cheaper in some way, then it would either be a major loss-leader for Uniqlo, or mean that other selvedge jeans are hideously overpriced LOL.

Thanks for the discussion. You and Whiskey are indeed 'hard pressers'

[urban sprawl]

in "looser tension" w/shuttle looms i meant that this gives all the irregularities naturally. it's not that simple to get the wide loom to do this "mistake" unless you use an emsler (which is for open-ends).

drapey-ness and a nice hand obviously differs from "article to article". especially in our oversaturated market of denim.

by "softness" i didn't mean as on a lefthand-twill or broken twill. what i mean it's kinda tough to explain in words but maybe you know what i mean by those $8+ a yard fabrics, where you can see the weft...?

...anyways, we keep repeating ourselves and i think we mean the same!

all my rigids (45rpm, studio d'artisan, etc) are obviously super stiff and almost painful but exciting to break in. i kinda stay away from LHT and BT.

can you get uniglos in the states?

[urban sprawl]

ijf: i dunno what time period you're reffering to. nowadays it's in north carolina.

[eldave04]

they seriously need to set up handsblue, you guys are nuts - i thought i liked denim...

[35mm]

Ok, I guess I'm not getting the point - I compared the undersides of my APC's, PDC's and a $40 dollar pair of Levi's, and I still can't tell the difference. Or maybe it's just that none (the levi's for sure) are ring-ring?

Maybe someone can post a pic showing the above description?

[35mm]

Quote:

The selvage is just the edge of the fabric. I suspect you may have intended to write "ringspun yarn" instead of "selvage" there.

Ring-Ring denim has ringspun yarn as both weft and weave. Ringspun yarn is slubby, (ie it's not a smooth, 'straight' thread, but has little lumps in it) so the quick way to tell is to have a look on the reverse side. You will usually* see diagonal blue threads and horizontal white threads. If the threads are both slubby then it's Ring-Ring denim.

On the front side of the denim (the blue side), you should see vertical slubby lines of the ringspun indigo thread.

*in a broken twill weave you won't see a clear diagonal pattern, but broken twills are far less common.

--- Original message by ringring on Mar 26, 2005 12:08 AM

I was referring to this description. Thanks.

[wild_whiskey]

I will post it as soon as I can find the info again about the Shuttle Loom manufacturer. I found it searching around on Google one time and now I can't seem to find it again.

What an interesting discussion. Urban, you have the Vegetable Indigo SA's? I'm curious if they use the 15 oz denim or not.

[SHOWCASE SHOWDOWN]

dontcareaboutshit>how come you didnt yell about spelling in here?

Its better to not say anything and appear to be the fool,than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[ringring]

35mm: Have a look that the two links below.

In the first photo note the slubby vertical lines. That's the ringspun warp. Due to it's 'slubby' nature, the indigo rubs off in an uneven, random way.

http://denim-gallery.heavy.jp/eternal_811-5up.jpg

The second photo shows the back side of some Ring-Ring. See how the horizontal white threads are of varying thicknesses? That's ringspun a weft.

http://beinghunted.com/v40/features/2005/prps/_html01/pic_29.html

Put both together and you'll be able to see very quickly whether a denim is Ring-Ring or not. Does that help?

Urban Sprawl: Regarding 'softness' and 'looser tension'; We've now both agreed that some denims are softer than others regardless of the fabric width.

That reinforces the point is that there is negligible fixed criteria (IMO) that distinguishes the weave quality from a narrow loom (aside from the physical width and edge finish).

Personally, I don't see any weaving 'mistakes' that would consistently characterise a selvage denim from a wide-loom denim. Like I said, it's the yarns, dyes and dyeing process that make the 'irregularities' and these can, and have been, achieved also in wide looms.

Other than that, I think we'd agree nine times out of ten on denims

On a side note, I admire your knowledge and look forward to learning a lot about denim from you in the future. Thanks a lot.

Edited by ringring on Mar 31, 2005 at 02:04 AM

[johnmc]

Quote:

Where cone mills all sold from San Francisco, and for a minimal sum too?

--- Original message by I J F on Mar 29, 2005 09:25 PM

I have read that they sold all the looms and had to go to Japan to buy looms for the LVC line.

[35mm]

Quote:

35mm: Have a look that the two links below.

In the first photo note the slubby vertical lines. That's the ringspun warp. Due to it's 'slubby' nature, the indigo rubs off in an uneven, random way.

http://denim-gallery.heavy.jp/eternal_811-5up.jpg

The second photo shows the back side of some Ring-Ring. See how the horizontal white threads are of varying thicknesses? That's ringspun a weft.

http://beinghunted.com/v40/features/2005/prps/_html01/pic_29.html

Put both together and you'll be able to see very quickly whether a denim is Ring-Ring or not. Does that help?

Urban Sprawl: Regarding 'softness' and 'looser tension'; We've now both agreed that some denims are softer than others regardless of the fabric width.

That reinforces the point is that there is negligible fixed criteria (IMO) that distinguishes the weave quality from a narrow loom (aside from the physical width and edge finish).

Personally, I don't see any weaving 'mistakes' that would consistently characterise a selvage denim from a wide-loom denim. Like I said, it's the yarns, dyes and dyeing process that make the 'irregularities' and these can, and have been, achieved also in wide looms.

Other than that, I think we'd agree nine times out of ten on denims

On a side note, I admire your knowledge and look forward to learning a lot about denim from you in the future. Thanks a lot.

Edited by ringring on Mar 31, 2005 at 02:04 AM

--- Original message by ringring on Mar 31, 2005 02:02 AM

Thanks ringring - I understand now. I guess it's hard to see the vertical lines on an unwashed pair.

It's funny you posted the prps - I happened to see this same pair yesterday. One wash, purple selvedge; not destroyed like the rest of the line but crumpled up a bit, I think, to help initiate wear marks. The one thing I didn't like- the legs have a lot of room, way too much IMO. The store had these at $150, which was surprising.

BTW, saw those Uniglos off the denim-gallery site you posted - they look just like APCs, what a steal!

[ringring]

It's funny you posted the prps - I happened to see this same pair yesterday. One wash, purple selvedge; not destroyed like the rest of the line but crumpled up a bit, I think, to help initiate wear marks. The one thing I didn't like- the legs have a lot of room, way too much IMO. The store had these at $150, which was surprising.

$150? Where?!

The Uniqlo's are definitely a steal. I'd be curious to see how a pair looks after a few months of wear.

BTW, when you are looking at unwashed denim, you will see the diagonal twill weave (usually running from bottom left hand to top right hand - hence 'right-hand' denim). If you look at the diagonals, you will still see the Ringspun yarn. It will appear uneven or lumpy.

[35mm]

A store called Up Against the Wall, here in DC. They're a silly little shop that are geared toward "urbanwear" but that, oddly enough, sometimes carries decent denim. They had two of the one wash left, both were like sizes 30W 31L. They're a local chain so other stores might have other sizes - may wanna give them a call, they may ship out of state?

http://www.upagainstthewall.com

[leviathan]

Hi. First post. Loads of info on this thread in particular, and thanks for sharing it.

Another brand that doesn't seem to have been mentioned before - Yohji Yamamoto, who's been making jeans with Spotted Horsecraft in Japan for a few years now (also do distressing on 45rpms). See

http://www.spottedhorsecraft.co.jp

I just got a pair yesterday, and have another two from last year and a couple of years back. Actually I have a question if anyone can help - anyone know a decent way of lifting the length on pre-washed/word jeans so as to retain the worn hem? I know there probably isn't, but if anyone knows it'll be someone here.

Cheers.

[ringring]

35mm: Thanks a lot for the heads up. I wonder why their price is so low for PRPS?

Leviathan: Welcome. Thanks for the very cool link.

Check out this old thread about hemming jeans: http://www.superfuture.com/city/supertalk/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=1165

[I J F]

Best thread ive seen here in quite some time!! RingRing never seems to dissapoint

M. U. F. C.

[leviathan]

Thanks ringring. I don't quite understnad how such a narrow hem can be reattached. Anyway, I may just try a couple of local tailors to see what they say.

By the way, what did you think of the spotted horse stuff?

[ringring]

Hem reattachment is rather like applying bias binding, or sewing a cuff onto a shirt. The old hem is removed and reattached so that the raw edge is sandwiched like a sleeve on a shirt cuff.

I apologise if my bumbling english has made a complete hash of that description. Believe me, it's simple when you see it.

The Spotted Horse stuff looks really cool. I'm fascinated by that sort of thing.