half selvage vs full selvage

OhSoStylish · December 27, 2005

what do you prefer? i personally like half a lot more (i currently own a pair of lees and earnest sewns with half selvage), and i was wondering what brands have some nice half selvage models. thanks in advance

Some call it being conceited, I call it seeing the truth.

docdoom · December 27, 2005

The only one im familiar with is lees. From a purely aestheic standpoint i think full selvedge looks a lot nicer.

nairb49 · December 27, 2005

^^agreed

ignore my ignorance, but i don't see why you prefer half-selvage, unless maybe economically speaking?

just curious

nairb49

kiya · December 28, 2005

half selvedge?

-k

wild_whiskey · December 28, 2005

A nicely rolled half-selvage looks pretty cool. I've seen some Lee's with really nice looking seams done this way. Half-selvage is used to keep the selvage outseam on bootcut or tapered jeans.

nairb49 · December 28, 2005

^^

suddenly it all makes sense

the tapering.

nairb49

Ahlvahroe · December 29, 2005

I have done some searches, Google and the such, on what the purpose of half selvedge is and I have never been able to find anything helpful. So,what you are saying is that it is only for tapering purposes; is that it? I always thought that it might have been a way to save on selvedge material if that makes sense. Oh and while I think that full looks better, half still looks neat, like on these lees.

http://www.rakuten.ne.jp/gold/americaya/mens/lee/1952-05.jpg

alex_844 · December 29, 2005

i am pretty sure its to save money. you can use more denim this way from the same roll.

lee has been doing it for a long time from what i've read.

M4TM · December 29, 2005

^^ agreed.

also - isn't it incorrect to actually call it "half-selvage"? i'm pretty sure that the jeans are made from the same roll of denim - it's just that only one selvage seam is present. i think "single-selvage-seam" or something would be more appropriate.

i'm just being anal.

No Shirt. No Shoes. No Dice.

Learn it. Know it. Live it.

kiya · December 29, 2005

i'm confused..

Half-Selvedge is only a visual term.. the denim itself is still selvedge..

-k

frideswide · December 29, 2005

I believe the roll is twice as wide.

Traditional "full selvage" comes from a narrow-width shuttle loom which produces a roll of denim 28 inches wide. The jeans pattern (for straight-leg jeans, at any rate) is laid out on the roll so that each of the 4 leg pieces lie along one edge or the other. (Some other small bits, like the coin pocket, sometimes a beltloop, etc, are often laid out along the edge too).

However, double-width shuttle looms producing rolls 56-60 inches wide have been introduced at various times in the past. -- it's cheaper to produce wider denim than narrower, and gives greater flexibility on how the patterns are laid out and cut. Obviously with these double-width rolls there's half the actual 'edge' to go around, hence the 'half selvage' feature to the leg outseam.

Since Lee used this denim extensively (although not exclusively) in the 1950s and later, it became a kind of Lee hallmark, and nowdays some Japanese Lee repros deliberately use half-selvage as a design feature (e.g. the Edwin Lee 1952 101Z) to maintain authenticity.

I agree with wild_whiskey: I think it's kind of cool, and certainly unusual.

.

Edited by frideswide on Dec 29, 2005 at 05:13 AM

wild_whiskey · December 29, 2005

also - isn't it incorrect to actually call it "half-selvage"? i'm pretty sure that the jeans are made from the same roll of denim - it's just that only one selvage seam is present. i think "single-selvage-seam" or something would be more appropriate.

i'm just being anal.

Well, selvage isn't denim from a shuttle loom. Selvage is the seam itself, so it would be redundant to call it single-selvage-seam. You'd be calling it single-finished-seam-seam. Half selvage works, or single-selvage if you insist. Denim from the shuttle loom with the selvage seam cut off is no longer selvage denim. It's just denim.

i'm confused..

so if only one side is actually showing the selvedge, then how BIG is the actual roll of denim?

big enough to cut two pairs of jeans from the width of one roll???

The bolt is still 28-30" wide. Selvage from a projectile loom (wide loom) does not look like selvage from a shuttle loom. It isn't woven in a twill, it's more like a canvas weave. Lee-style or Levi's-style half-selvage is typically still woven from a shuttle loom. To be honest I've never seen half-selvage jeans that were from a wide loom.

It is true that you do can save some denim from some half-selvage jeans, but many pairs of half-selvage jeans are just cut on a curve or diagonal where at least part of it is still against the selvage seam, thus not saving any denim. Typically the last couple inches of the outside of the leg are full-selvage, and then the seam is rolled into a lock-stitch as it goes up the leg. This is to allow for some flare. Look at Serge d Nimes signature as an example of a selvage seam that is partly full-selvage and partly half-selvage.

haptronic · December 29, 2005

nice explaination frideswide others on this board have mentioned the wide shuttle looms in a modern context. it is interesting to here knowledge about older use.

nairb49 · December 29, 2005

most knowledgable post, wild whiskey

good stuff

nairb49

docdoom · December 29, 2005

wild-whiskey

Denim from the shuttle loom with the selvage seam cut off is no longer selvage denim'

Im not really sure about this allthough i can see where you are coming from. Selvedge is basically a misnomer, since non shuttle loom denim can be selvedge, that is have a slef-edge (like the modern lee 101z). So as it stands, selvedge denim has come to mean simply that woven on a shuttle loom - so if the self-edge itself was cut off i think the denim itself would remain selvedge denim - ie that which has been woven on a shuttle loom.

So single selvedge is still selvedge denim but the easthics of the outseam just present a single piece of selvedge to the eye.

Paul T · December 30, 2005

FWIW, Lee changed to half selvage over a period when the Riders were changing quite drastically in shape, from a pretty straight leg design, to a pronounced drainpipe (it's hard to date the changes year to year, despite what you see in Japanese books, as Lee had several factories, but looking at promo material year by year gives a good idea).

At the time I'm sure they considered the visibility of the selvage, or otherwise, as totally unimportant. In fact I wonder whether the original use of the selvage edge on Levi's etc was simply there to save money - it saved having to hem the fabric, or add a lockstitch.

BTW, it might just be me, but I wouldn't call the newish Euro lee jeans true selvage. They show the edge of the denim, but that edge isn't fully woven, even if they do have a 'selvage stripe'.

witts · December 30, 2005

ive noticed on most of the Lee Euro line the half selvage is distressed and frayed. looks totally shit to me and the selvage is big and thick unlike most selvage, personally i dont like it. either full selvage or no selvage @ all!

docdoom · December 30, 2005

Paul, yeah thats what i was trying to get at, though not sure i was that clear! It is woven to look like a selvedge edge but is frayed on the side

maurizio · December 30, 2005

Due to my very bad written english it's quite difficult for me explain why no one is chatching the real meaning of selvadge denim.What's missing here it's the weaving knowledge in order to understand how and why shuttle looms are better than wide modern looms.

Selvadge denim can be reconized without any doubt checking how the weft yarn has been woven.

Let me prepare some kind of easy explanation....once ready I will put it in a new topic under the

name of "selvadge: discover the true ".

Maurizio

takashi · December 30, 2005

Please do.

minya · December 30, 2005

Paul T: I received your book in the mail from Amazon yesterday. Brilliant stuff. I really enjoyed it. Should be required reading for everyone on this forum

6MT · December 30, 2005

wtf is half selvege?

December 31, 2005

Yeah there should be a whole topic here on the definition of selvage...

Would clear up a lot of things and I feel now a lot of people mean more or less different things with it, when it comes to the details and specifications I mean.

At school (textile management) I learned that when talking about fabric (any fabric) the edge of the fabric is the selvage or self-edge, and not so much a specific type of edge in it self. With knitted fabrics this edge is always neat without fraying for the yarn goes back into the fabric.

With woven fabrics you have the two options: the (weft)tread can go back into the fabric, as is the case with the narrow shuttle-loom fabrics or it can be shot trough the warp treads and then neatly cut of at the other end of the fabric (projectile-loom), in this kind of fabric each wefttread or tread running in the with or the fabric is not connected to the ones above and below. While in a peice of the other fabric (before it is cut into pattern parts naturally) all the weft yarns are still connected due to the fabric being woven on a shuttle-loom, untill the tread in the shuttle runs out and a new tread is inserted, this you can see with two pieces of theard sticking out a little bit somewhere at the edge of a real/full/authentic/you name it, selvage denim fabric edge.

Now no one of the two is more selvage then the other, the kind of selvage is simply different. With the cut off version the fabric is mostly used to make jeans for brands or lines in which it is not important to have selvage as a feature of the jeans, therefore it is mostly cut without using the selvage, Lee is indeed an exeption to this as undoubtedly other brands aswel which I just don't know of...

The shuttle-loom fabric is a lot more expensive and thus also used more for jeans in which the fabric is more important and more emphasised. Brand tend to call this 'selvage denim' which is actually rediculous since there is no way you can make a piece of denim cloth without having a selvage, or edge of the fabric. But to the customers in shops the whole high-tech story is not really explainable in a 5min sales talk so 'selvage denim' settled in as a term for the denim produced on shuttle looms.

Naturally the use of the term this way is not wrong in it self but saying the other denim (cut-off edge) is not selvage denim is. Jeans made with half-selvage are at Lee (for jeans in their X-line and 101 collections) made from the cut-off type of selvage, which does come on a wider roll and it it thuss possible to cut the jeans patternparts out of the fabric with only using the edge of the fabric for two of the fore leg parts, the other two simly fit out of the middle of the fabric. With their jeans made out of shuttle-loom denim the fabric is usually not wide enough to fit 4 leg pieces in the width and using the selvage 4times makes more sence anyway since the target group for those kind of jeans know about the selvage in the first place. Nevertheless I have seen Lee Rider Originals made out of this fabric with only one selvage edge and the other being an overlock stitch. This makes no economic sence unless the fabric is wider or the selvage edge is cut of for oter purposes.

Using only one selvage edge does increase the number of fit possibilities when is comes to the leg opening, but this is limited an extreme flare for instance would twist really weird towards the selvage side if it is only cut into the other pattern piece.

I hope I have not complicated things more now with this story... I'd be happy to go deeper on certain things but I agree that a complete understanding of the selvage phenomena is almost only possible when you dive deep into the actual manuafactoring process and the equipement used.

And if anything is wrong with it please correct me for I would like to know The Truth aswel, and think this is it. : )

December 31, 2005