Poly-cotton thread

[Eccles]

[The fact that a lot of you buy this weak excuse makes me lose faith in humanity.

If Honda released a commercial that stated that they would construct all cars with iron parts that are sure to break down sooner than say, stainless steel, because they want you to "build a relation$hip with your local mechanic"...how many of you would be happy about that???

It's essentially the same logic. This is no different than companies making microwaves that are design to break down in a certain amount of years so you have to buy another one.

Of course they want you around the shop for repairs, that way you could be tempted to buy more. And eventually if the jeans get messed up a lot you will have to buy another one.

The reason a lot of people buy Japanese jeans is because they think they are of higher quality. In fact, they are paying for perceived quality that isn't there. After all, denim heads look down at designer denim because it is "bad quality", so what makes Japanese denim any different?

All this talk about abstract qualities that Japanese denim supposedly posses like authenticity, character, passion, etc reminds me of nudies' marketing strategy. At the end of the day they are a piece indigo dyed cotton trousers and all the romanticizing is bullshit to cover up it's faults and improve sales.

You either buy the propaganda or you don't.

I for one will NEVER buy anything from skull, and will start looking for real quality jeans.

Badly constructed Japanese jeans are the new nudie.[/Quote]

I disagree that the jeans are purposefully designed to break down. It seems obvious that companies that choose to use cotton threads do so because they feel it adds to the process of 'wear' which is the whole purpose of buying japanese denim. What fun would it be without the romance?

[batorizer]

I feel a little differently about the local dealer thing because I think that doing the repairs by hand is what makes the jeans more personal. From a business stand-point trying to create this type of relationship is good marketing and is good for the customer. It allows the customer to receive great service (assuming it's given) and will help the shop to have loyal customers that will talk about the shop's products/services to others.

when it comes to the products themselves, if you don't like it don't buy it. It's funny that you mention honda; i've only ever driven hondas because they're a reliable car that I attach a value to. I also own a harley that I know will fuck up (right now the valve stem seals are shot), but I still love it, and in the same regard I attach a value to it. when we're talking about jeans it's the same thing. I attach a higher value than you do to japanese repro jeans. For me it's because of the vintage details, and for you too, it's some of the same details, we just view them in a differnt manner. It's not that the companies are bad. I don't see why you are abraisive about it. These companies (manufacturers and retailers) are just trying to build relationships with customers that create value for both parties. Now that you know they're not for you, you can spend your money elsewhere

[sidneylo]

The reason a lot of people buy Japanese jeans is because they think they are of higher quality. In fact, they are paying for perceived quality that isn't there. After all, denim heads look down at designer denim because it is "bad quality", so what makes Japanese denim any different?

All this talk about abstract qualities that Japanese denim supposedly posses like authenticity, character, passion, etc reminds me of nudies' marketing strategy. At the end of the day they are a piece indigo dyed cotton trousers and all the romanticizing is bullshit to cover up it's faults and improve sales.

You either buy the propaganda or you don't.

There seems to be a misinterpretation of the word quality. By no means do Japanese denim companies go out of their way to market these features... it seems as though we purport these ideas more than they do. They seem more passionate about the reproduction and could care less about it... if it was otherwise they'd have an English compatible site like Nudie with little marketing details about raw denim.

Also, a lot of people buy Japanese repro jeans because they are collectors... I want to believe that statement because I am not sold on the fact that Superfuture is the majority of the consumer base for authentic reproduced jeans. A lot of these companies are way more hardcore into western wear and repros than we will ever be enthusiastic for. Companies like Flat Head operate on a fucking ranch... those dudes/gals think they are cowboys. There might be some wabi-sabi as with the tradition, but they are just some hardcore motherfuckers.

To discount the romanticizing of the weaknesses would be unjustified against the whole process of wearing raw denim for unique fading. They fall under the same category. Wear is a part of the process we appreciate... there just happens to be some parts that really do wear in a way that implicates the wearer through more than aesthetics.

[coleslawyum]

I agree with a lot of what has been said here especially about the wear being unique to the wearer. Also the point that ddml brought up about wearing steel threaded polyester elastic rubber pants.

I have a Gibson Les Paul that is made like shit. The frets were loose, the paint job was shitty and the fret board was uneven. There are a million guitar companies that make a better product. But what you get in return is incredible tone and tradition, which sometimes is the deciding factor. Same reason why people buy Harley's and Corvettes.

These jeans are trying to emulate a tradition that might be lost due to the modernization of clothing production. Its great to be able to get your hands on work wear that feels like its from another time period. I appreciate the fact that there is that choice.

[watchman]

that Honda analogy is fucking ridiculous. If you have to use cars, it is as if they rebuilt a classic car and went with the original radio instead of a cd player. The cd player is more convenient/modern/durable but the original had an AM tuner and so the new one does too. Its the same reason people put white walls on restored cars instead of brand new pirellis.

ps if your approach to denim is that they are just "indigo dyed trousers" then honestly you may be in the wrong place.

[Bijan]

Some poly/cotton pocket bags would be nice. I agree with others, repro jeans should have cotton thread, but more modern ones should use a stronger thread. I don't mind repairing my jeans myself. I'll post up pics of pocket bag repairs sometime soon.

[Blackplatano]

First of all, jeans are work wear, they are meant to take punishment. One of the things that is mentioned a lot is that jeans can take a lot of punishment because of it's work wear roots, so it's funny that people are suggesting that if i'm looking for something durable I should look else were. Second of all, the honda analogy is accurate, the CD analogy is not. Third of all, a lot of classic musical instruments with lots of flaws are considered the best because of tradition. That doesn't mean they are actually the best. I would need another thread for that topic.

But anyways...

I'm going to break it down as simple as possible...

We could all agree that poly-cotton is superior when it comes to durability, right?

We could also agree that it doesn't change the look of the jeans, since most people can't even tell the difference between all-cotton and poly-cotton.

Therefore, poly-cotton adds durability to a pair of jeans without affecting the look.

Now the "problem" is that this is not an authentic detail since it was not present in vintage denim, right?

But what exactly makes a pair of jeans authentic?

Denim

Cut

details

or all-cotton stitching???

It's safe to say, that denim, cut, and the details like rivets, play a larger role in determining whether a pair of jeans is an authentic repro than the material of the stitching. Yes?

If so, then why is

ultra slubby Denim

super heavy Denim

natural indigo dye

Skinny cuts

Ok to use on "repro's" like samurai, PBJ's, sugarcane, ETC ETC.

While using Poly-cotton stitching is inauthentic on an already inauthentic brand like skulls?

If using poly-cotton makes a brand inauthentic, then using different denim, cut and details would make a brand REALLY inauthentic.

Since most of the brands talked about here use different denim and cuts, like samurai, and thus can not truly be considered repro's...Why not use stitching that will greatly improve the jeans since it isn't a repro anyway?

[sidneylo]

WABI SABI

Too soon?

[ilovespaz]

from a guy with small experience with denim production in l.a. - many 'premium' denim companies in l.a. will use american and efird's poly wrapped cotton thread because of the fading they can get from cotton threads compared to a pure polyesther thread. A&E also markets this thread as being superior for vintage laundry purposes. poly wrapped cotton is just as strong as regular polyesther thread, but you get the fading of a pure cotton thread. So using a 100 percent cotton thread does make a difference in the look of worn in jean. I've used 100 percent polyesther thread and i can't stand it when i see my 'vintage' wash looking dumb with bright colored thread.

and cotton wrapped polyesther is the most expensive denim thread that american and efird offers (from what i bought last year), so i guess the point is, there is value in making a denim look vintage as the denim ages over time even in the thread, and if someone choosed 100 percent cotton then thats what they choose, but by all means you can't get a vintage look on your thread from using 100 percent polyesther.

[andewhall]

Nicley said ilovespaz. Core spun is the business....the best of both worlds.

Heres one found in a box at the back of this really old school fabric retailers called Harold's. Its a goldmine of cool old stuff.

[moykky]

I don't mind the cotton threading but the one thing that annoys me is how my wallet eats it's way through my backpocket! When they start making denim from some more durable materials than cotton. Why dont they mix polyester in denim?

[trinket]

I don't know what the problem is.

Saying you want threads that don't break is like saying you want jeans that don't fade.

I also thought there was something about cotton thread shrinking when you wash - so you get crenulations on the seams and roping on your cuffs.

Do you still get shrinkage with poly cotton? poly core?

[fre-co]

Why dont they mix polyester in denim?

I hope you are joking?

There is some polycotton denim for you.

Polyester is a swear word in my household.

[moykky]

I have to say that those ^^^ are beautiful! Color is like early summer skies. I bet they have polyester threads too. I'd like to see how they look like after 100 years of wear...

[willy p]

I have to say that those ^^^ are beautiful! Color is like early summer skies. I bet they have polyester threads too. I'd like to see how they look like after 100 years of wear...

too bad anybody who buys those wont get more than 10 years of wear out of them due to 'natural causes'.

[Blackplatano]

Saying you want threads that don't break is like saying you want jeans that don't fade.

No. Those two things are nothing alike.

Sorry. Try again.

[dino might]

i think i only own one pair of jeans with cotton/poly thread but ive never had any threads on any pair break, maybe im just a pussy

with that said, id prefer poly/cotton and potentially a little more longevity out of my jean's threads, but after considering all the other factors its a pretty trifling one. ive worn through the actual denim more times than ive worn through threads. weight, cut, color and details are what matter to me, probably in that order

platanos dead on in wanting to really get ones money worth (even though most of us are paying about a 1/4 of that money for shipping and an imported good, not the quality of the good itself) and i also dont see the harm in blended thread since most of the jeans really arent true repros to begin with

on the other hand, it does make them that much more authentic, and to some people that nostalgic piece of mind matters. to some it doesnt, so they buy the stuff that is designed for looks or what have you.

again with cars.. you want economical, reliable, and efficient, you buy a new honda. you want something loud, fast, and badass you buy a muscle car. cars or jeans, both have sides with advantages the other side lacks. thats how everything works. neither/nothing is perfect. the whole idea of perfection is so subjective by its very nature its kind of making me regret taking the time to try to convey all this.

whats the real problem though? did you find a pair of jeans you love everything about but the all cotton thread platano? that could be bothersome but otherwise it just sounds like much ado about nothing

[trinket]

Saying you want threads that don't break is like saying you want jeans that don't fade.

No. Those two things are nothing alike.

Sorry. Try again.

I think they're quite similar.

[tmadd]

If you want to freak the fuck out about a broken thread every once in awhile, then obviously cotton thread isn't for you. However, if you like, the look, feel, or other unique properties that cotton thread bestows on a pair of jeans, then perhaps treating the repairs of broken stitches as a normal maintenance procedure such as conditioning or polishing a pair of boots, or changing the tires on a bike, or...wow patching the inevitable holes in your rarely washed and roughly worn cotton jeans, perhaps it wouldn't be so bad. While it is true that the durability of Japanese Repro's is highly touted both on this board, and by those who sell them, no one ever says that they last forever without maintenance. Oh, yeah, and most importantly, Wabi fucking Sabi.

[jubei]

And here I thought this thread was going to be all about the torrid love affair of two of my favorite SuFu posters...

*sigh*

[Blackplatano]

whats the real problem though? did you find a pair of jeans you love everything about but the all cotton thread platano? that could be bothersome but otherwise it just sounds like much ado about nothing

Its just common sense to me. But now that you mention it...

My sorahikos are starting to look great, but they have already been to the 45 rpm repair shop 2X. The stitching in the hem has come off, some stitching in the inseem has come off, part of the crotch threads have come off and the threads on the yoke have also done a vanishing act. At one point you could have put a finger through the jeans. On top of that the croth has had some holes and was about to blow, but it got reinforce before it could happen.

Basically, all the problems are fixed, but they could have never happen if 45 rpm would just use poly-cotton thread.

It also seems ridiculous that a jean like the jomon, which take years and years to fade, have cotton stitching. Even if you by a miracle get them to fade i doubt they would have any life left. Those arent a repro so they seem to be perfect for poly-cotton.

I think they're quite similar.

No, how can you compare the significance of a thread (when it comes to looks) to the actual fade? Has anybody ever said in the evo thread: "hey, nice broken threads?"

Does anybody look at the threads and think "holy shit, look at that thead fade :eek: "???????

Basically,

I think that the superfuture groupthink has taken over and people seem to be too pussy to have their own opinions.

For example,

Last year, when people saw nudies with a crotch blow out or broken threads they would comment About how nudies are low quality and that those things don't happen to quality jap salvage.

Now that people are exposing jap jeans to serious wear, we see the same crotch blow outs broken threads that nudies were getting. But now SuFu says it's WABI SABI.

Does anybody else see the bullshit? Judging from the +rep i have gotten i would say yes, but if you feel me speak up.

[theetruscan]

No, how can you compare the significance of a thread (when it comes to looks) to the actual fade? Has anybody ever said in the evo thread: "hey, nice broken threads?"

Does anybody look at the threads and think "holy shit, look at that thead fade :eek: "???????

I dunno anything about groupthink, or nudies. Your comments on thread seem exactly right.... Though I suppose I could imagine some weird-ass wear as someone breaks all the cotton "sheathing" off the poly-cotton thread and gets shiny new-looking thread on beat ass jeans. Seems really unlikely though.

I guess I just think anything as basically irrelevant to the fading and beauty of my jeans that causes me a major nuisance is fucking stupid.

I also think this will never be settled.

[rnrswitch]

I tend to think that there is group think here at sufu, especially since it has become a beast fest over which special edition is coming out and when, and I do understand the complaints with the cotton thread. People seemed to be using the quality argument to explain why seven jeans are shit, but sammies justify $250 a pair.

I for one don't give a shit about the cotton or poly blend, I work a desk job at an engineering firm and don't plan on ever going back to construction, so durability doesn't matter. I think it is laughable that people cream their panties over a completely torn up pair of jeans, but then again I have found myself guilty of the very same thing.

We here at SUFU really need to get over ourselves and quit justifying our over consumption of denim and anything related. Many people on here will talk about the quality of the denim, but most will never wear a pair of jeans long enough to obtain a hole in the knees.

But to Blackplatano... your are talking about utility of jeans (quality and such), yet you will go and blow a massive amount of cash on a pair of sorahikos? Come on... the complaint rings hollow.

[frank]

it doesn't really bother me at all. cotton/poly lasts longer, 100% cotton looks good after being worn.

[iamstarwars]

It also seems ridiculous that a jean like the jomon, which take years and years to fade, have cotton stitching. Even if you by a miracle get them to fade i doubt they would have any life left. Those arent a repro so they seem to be perfect for poly-cotton.

The whole point of the Jomons is that they don't fade, or barely. I remember talking to one of the guys in the Paris store about them, and he was telling me that people buy them partly because of this fact. If you want jeans that fade, buy some Samurais.

The idea behind the Jomons is that they represent a prehistoric past, and in that case, whole cotton associated with natural indigo make perfect sense.

[Blackplatano]

But to Blackplatano... your are talking about utility of jeans (quality and such), yet you will go and blow a massive amount of cash on a pair of sorahikos? Come on... the complaint rings hollow.

Didn't blow that much really, i got em new from japan for less than a pair of sams.

Sorahikos are suppose to be top quality, so i don't know you mean exactly.

The whole point of the Jomons is that they don't fade, or barely. I remember talking to one of the guys in the Paris store about them, and he was telling me that people buy them partly because of this fact. If you want jeans that fade, buy some Samurais.

The idea behind the Jomons is that they represent a prehistoric past, and in that case, whole cotton associated with natural indigo make perfect sense.

That's why i said they barely fade...However, the bespoke 7 year washes are based on the jomons...so they do fade if worn enough.

prehistoric...wtf cavemen didn't wear jeans...but neways they are design to be worn for a LONG time. cotton couldn't do that and for $750 using inferior thread makes no sense when cotton blend fades like cotton while keeping the durability of polyester.

[trinket]

Has anybody ever said in the evo thread: "hey, nice broken threads?"

I think that the superfuture groupthink has taken over and people seem to be too pussy to have their own opinions.

Actually, I like the way the thread breaks and wears off the denim above the hidden rivets on back pockets.

And the way the arcuate thread breaks at the pocket edge, and on other folded seams.

[iamstarwars]

prehistoric...wtf cavemen didn't wear jeans...but neways they are design to be worn for a LONG time. cotton couldn't do that and for $750 using inferior thread makes no sense when cotton blend fades like cotton while keeping the durability of polyester.

I didn't say cavemen jeans. Read the description of the jeans on the 45RPM website if you don't understand what I mean. I said the Jomons were based on the idea of natural products, and for that purpose, plastic threads don't sound too adequate. They are designed to be worn for a long time, and that's why you get free repairs on them.

I'm not opposed to the idea of polyester threads, in fact, when I repair my jeans, I use polyester because I want my repairs to last, but in the case of the Jomons, it's simply not appropriate.

[rnrswitch]

When are people going to see that Jomons are the biggest waste of money?

[cheep]

When are people going to see that Jomons are the biggest waste of money?

the day that elitism dies