Baseball Talk

[docnbhd]

The one other thing that would make me nervous as a Cubs fan - when you look at all the "ace" pitchers Beane's let go of in Oakland - none of them have been as dominant after they left (Zito's been downright awful, Mulder - well, he's probably done). He seems to know when a pitcher has given their best stuff. So far, Harden's been excellent, but I personally am nervous.

I agree - the type of pitcher he is somewhat of a liability in Wrigley but, when you are as good (when he's healthy) as he is, I'd hate to mess with his stuff to try to get him to induce groundballs. I read that they don't let him throw off a mound when taking warm ups and also they've restricted the number of warm up throws he gets; apparently, fastball pitchers don't need as many repetitions to get loose as control guys? Doesn't make sense to me, but it's working for Harden. Point is - mess with that, and he could quickly get injured (AGAIN).

-Jake

Spot on. I think all the more reason they are cautious with him. I have a feeling Gallagher is going to be amazing, a bonafide 2 or 3 in that rotation. Beane is a fucking genius, but he'll never have enough to go deep into the playoffs. A's = rest of MLB's farm system.

I know throwing the curve more actually screws up your arm (a la Wood). But I'd like to see him develop a sinker since he does mix-up his pitches so well. I totally agree that definitely NOW is not the time to be messing with his pitching style, but it would a great thing to do come next year during the offseason. Let's just cross our fingers, knock on wood, that no ill fate besets him (Harden that is).

Jake, you in Chi? We should try and catch a game sometime. Maybe get some more Chicagoan sufu'ers as well.

[kunk75]

not to be so simple minded, but he's got a bit of the bedard/pussy disease. maybe someone just needs to tell him that soreness/fatigue is part of the game.

The one other thing that would make me nervous as a Cubs fan - when you look at all the "ace" pitchers Beane's let go of in Oakland - none of them have been as dominant after they left (Zito's been downright awful, Mulder - well, he's probably done). He seems to know when a pitcher has given their best stuff. So far, Harden's been excellent, but I personally am nervous.

I agree - the type of pitcher he is somewhat of a liability in Wrigley but, when you are as good (when he's healthy) as he is, I'd hate to mess with his stuff to try to get him to induce groundballs. I read that they don't let him throw off a mound when taking warm ups and also they've restricted the number of warm up throws he gets; apparently, fastball pitchers don't need as many repetitions to get loose as control guys? Doesn't make sense to me, but it's working for Harden. Point is - mess with that, and he could quickly get injured (AGAIN).

-Jake

[kunk75]

pretty soon, only white guys will throw breaking balls. supposedly, they are only teaching fastballs/change and a little bit of the slider at the latin american academies for fear of arm problems.

[docnbhd]

not to be so simple minded, but he's got a bit of the bedard/pussy disease. maybe someone just needs to tell him that soreness/fatigue is part of the game.

Not to be confused with Sheets threadbare arm syndrome.

[eastcoastrider27]

I was watching the Cubs vs. Marlins game yesterday (or was it the day before), and I couldn't get over how electric the crowd was. They were standing and cheering like crazy when Samardzija (sp?) was pitching. It looked like a great atmosphere. People always say Fenway has great fans, but they would look like art gallery attendees compared to Cubs fans.

FTR, I think that a good portion of the Red Sox "fans" that attend games these days are phonies. They gab on their cell phones, talk to friends, sit on their hands when the Sox are losing, and only cheer when "Papi" hits a dinger. It all changed when they won it in '04, and if the Cubs win it this year it could happen to their fanbase too. But for now, it looks like the Cubbies have the best fans in baseball.

[kunk75]

agreed. there's something to the underdog fan thing. sox nation don't know the hunger anymore.

chicago's such a great city, the cubs drought is so unfair. they should just give them one at this point, like the lifetime achievement oscar.

[eastcoastrider27]

pretty soon, only white guys will throw breaking balls. supposedly, they are only teaching fastballs/change and a little bit of the slider at the latin american academies for fear of arm problems.

Interesting. Fastball/Change up is still the greatest one-two punch in the game.

If you have a good fastball and a can take 10-14 mph off with a change, then batters have no chance. Add a slider, or a tweaked fastball like a two-seam, cutter, or split and it's lights out.

Although he had a great curve, Pedro's change up was probably the main reason he was so dominant from 98-02.

[jake431]

Spot on. I think all the more reason they are cautious with him. I have a feeling Gallagher is going to be amazing, a bonafide 2 or 3 in that rotation. Beane is a fucking genius, but he'll never have enough to go deep into the playoffs. A's = rest of MLB's farm system.

I know throwing the curve more actually screws up your arm (a la Wood). But I'd like to see him develop a sinker since he does mix-up his pitches so well. I totally agree that definitely NOW is not the time to be messing with his pitching style, but it would a great thing to do come next year during the offseason. Let's just cross our fingers, knock on wood, that no ill fate besets him (Harden that is).

Jake, you in Chi? We should try and catch a game sometime. Maybe get some more Chicagoan sufu'ers as well.

Yep, Chi-Town. There really aren't enough of us around here.

I think the A's won't get deep in the playoffs as long as they are forced to dress like a college team with their stupid white shoes. Fucking terrible.

As far as arm trouble goes - I think that load is overstated as the cause. Sure there are some guys who have trouble throwing every 5 days, but look at the 70's and early 80's - people threw a ton more complete games than now, and a lot more innings, and arm trouble was no more prevalant. I am not suggesting a total return to those days. And maybe players don't want to go out there and compete. But if I was a major leaguer, I'd want the ball as often as I could get it, and I'd want the game as long as I could get it. Not this "I threw 6 innings, 90 pitches, someone come in for me" bullshit that exists. I'd rather have 3 20 win seasons than 5 15 win seasons in my career, too. And I'd want double digit complete games. So, maybe pitchers really have become pussies.

Basically, I just created an argument for why I like Halladay so much. Tons of complete games, and battles for every win. Gotta love it.

-Jake

[dunkin deeznuts]

I was watching the Cubs vs. Marlins game yesterday (or was it the day before), and I couldn't get over how electric the crowd was. They were standing and cheering like crazy when Samardzija (sp?) was pitching. It looked like a great atmosphere. People always say Fenway has great fans, but they would look like art gallery attendees compared to Cubs fans.

FTR, I think that a good portion of the Red Sox "fans" that attend games these days are phonies. They gab on their cell phones, talk to friends, sit on their hands when the Sox are losing, and only cheer when "Papi" hits a dinger. It all changed when they won it in '04, and if the Cubs win it this year it could happen to their fanbase too. But for now, it looks like the Cubbies have the best fans in baseball.

Interesting. Fastball/Change up is still the greatest one-two punch in the game.

If you have a good fastball and a can take 10-14 mph off with a change, then batters have no chance. Add a slider, or a tweaked fastball like a two-seam, cutter, or split and it's lights out.

Although he had a great curve, Pedro's change up was probably the main reason he was so dominant from 98-02.

werd, red sox aer going through the bandwagon phase...all the "fans" come out of the woodwork when the team is winning....see Yankees late 90s to early 2000

Pedro is the biggest reason for so many Latino pitchers throwing the change up now but still nothing nastier than a well through curve

[docnbhd]

I was watching the Cubs vs. Marlins game yesterday (or was it the day before), and I couldn't get over how electric the crowd was. They were standing and cheering like crazy when Samardzija (sp?) was pitching. It looked like a great atmosphere. People always say Fenway has great fans, but they would look like art gallery attendees compared to Cubs fans.

FTR, I think that a good portion of the Red Sox "fans" that attend games these days are phonies. They gab on their cell phones, talk to friends, sit on their hands when the Sox are losing, and only cheer when "Papi" hits a dinger. It all changed when they won it in '04, and if the Cubs win it this year it could happen to their fanbase too. But for now, it looks like the Cubbies have the best fans in baseball.

Thanks eastcoast^^ However since the Cubs '03 run there are also way too many bandwagon fans. They sort of discovered that Wrigley Field sometimes has too much of that "party" mentality. But Cubs fans do travel well, they are everywhere. I even saw a few in Cubs caps at a Diamondbacks vs. Mets game in Shea. Oh and I feel like hitting every single person who shows up at Wrigley still wearing a PRIOR jersey or a girl wearing one because "he's so cute".

I've been wanting to make a trip to Fenway for such a long time, it's one more pilgrimages yet to happen. I think the Red Sox fans have been spoiled with an amazing team. But these bandwagon fans are no different than the Cubs ones, you'll see the exact same thing if you personally went to Wrigley.

Speaking of bandwagon fans I hated how many people jumped on the White Sox during the '05 campaign. Suddenly everyone I knew were "hardcore life-long White Sox fans" with Rowand jersey's and retrofitting their language by calling the Cell Comisky again to maintain WhiteSox fan authenticity.

Samardzija will be a good pitcher, however he relies on the fastball too much that he'll be caught on to in a few weeks time. If all else fails, the Bears need receivers, but that's another story.

Kunk, I love your statement about "lifetime achievement oscar", I was just lmao

[docnbhd]

pretty soon, only white guys will throw breaking balls. supposedly, they are only teaching fastballs/change and a little bit of the slider at the latin american academies for fear of arm problems.

You described Marmol's repertoire exactly

[kunk75]

is it me, or do you see sliders get crushed more than even all those hanging curves in the old days?

i really love a good cutter or hard sinker. good hitters beat even great fastballs now that players are so fast/strong.

[docnbhd]

is it me, or do you see sliders get crushed more than even all those hanging curves in the old days?

i really love a good cutter or hard sinker. good hitters beat even great fastballs now that players are so fast/strong.

I agree. Marmol had a sick slider earlier in the year, relying on that as his "out" pitch. But now you just see the ball go down, with no break and hitters golfing it into the stands. Hitters are definitely catching on to the slider.

Rivera's cutter is still a thing of beauty....

[kunk75]

yes, it's even unhittable on xbox360

everyone is cracking down on curveballs. i coach my son, who's 8, and has what he'd like to be a 12/6 curve (prolly more like 11 to 5) and he's had a brain lapse and thrown it a few times even though i told him not to. they threw him out for this cause he's too young to throw breaking stuff.

[docnbhd]

yes, it's even unhittable on xbox360

everyone is cracking down on curveballs. i coach my son, who's 8, and has what he'd like to be a 12/6 curve (prolly more like 11 to 5) and he's had a brain lapse and thrown it a few times even though i told him not to. they threw him out for this cause he's too young to throw breaking stuff.

Damn, your son has awesome talent I can't imagine how good he'll be at 18. I throw one or four fastball/splitter/slider now, I have to pack my elbow and arm in ice overnight.

Yep. throwing the breaking stuff will do damage to his rotator cuff at his young age. At least when he gets older, curves will be no mystery to him. Does anything happen if the ump catches him throwing a breaking ball or curve during a game?

Oh and thanks for the rep kunk, I am out of rep so I'll have to get you later.

[kunk75]

yeah, if he throws a curve, they warn or toss him.

i get a bit worried cause he also throws 3/4 naturally and the release is a bit scary to watch. he's got the head case thing, too. starts to melt with runners on.

at this age it's all fastball/change, but at 8, your fastball is your changeup. nothing to take off of.

[docnbhd]

yeah, if he throws a curve, they warn or toss him.

i get a bit worried cause he also throws 3/4 naturally and the release is a bit scary to watch. he's got the head case thing, too. starts to melt with runners on.

at this age it's all fastball/change, but at 8, your fastball is your changeup. nothing to take off of.

I figured. I've heard some ridiculous stories of umpires throwing out young pitchers without even a warning.

But wow, again it's probably a good thing your son is getting exposure to all this at a young age. It'll be easier for him to get him coached "out of it" down the road especially he wants to go college/pro. That mental phase will pass I think. It's probably also because his natural style of throwing the curve is impeded by the umps/rules, so he can't use the one pitch that probably works for him well. Once he gets into the no-limit baseball high school/college/pro - he's going to be so hard-nosed.

Just please make sure he never ever ever does this: http://www.workhorsevideoproductions.com/the%20pitch.mpg

[kunk75]

haha i remember reading that story a while back. didn't the pitcher get drafted? and his brother was the catcher, right?

what level do you pitch at?

[Leeacto]

Yeah Miller Park is really nice. Sabathia's throwing heat, but who the Crew is really good at being a letdown. I can just hope.

Not a cubs fan, but Fukudome is tight

[docnbhd]

haha i remember reading that story a while back. didn't the pitcher get drafted? and his brother was the catcher, right?

what level do you pitch at?

Haha yeah, I actually heard some colleges didn't even offer scholarships or redacted scholarships to the players. Either way, they are pretty much screwed because every ump up to the pros is going to remember that incident. I think his brother is the catcher too.

I should say that I pitched at the high school level, relief. But made a transition to third base later on because I never really had the "stuff" beyond a standard four-seam fastball. But my flirtation with baseball ended with high school. Since after college, I every now and then pitch with some local recreational teams.

[docnbhd]

Yeah Miller Park is really nice. Sabathia's throwing heat, but who the Crew is really good at being a letdown. I can just hope.

Not a cubs fan, but Fukudome is tight

NL Central is going to be the division to watch. As long as STL doesn't make it which I think any Cubs or Brewers fan can agree on

Fukudome is an OBP machine, however his swing has been awkward at the moment.

[kunk75]

i play on a local team, too. i prefer bball though, as since the local teams have no system of ranking players, it's a bit scary, headhunters and so forth.

i actually tried one of those 1880s rules leagues a while back for a couple of weeks. kinda fun.

i played hs ball for half a year, but was all-hit, no field and wasn't committed enough. my son throws as hard as i ever did — i just didn't have an arm.

[docnbhd]

i play on a local team, too. i prefer bball though, as since the local teams have no system of ranking players, it's a bit scary, headhunters and so forth.

i actually tried one of those 1880s rules leagues a while back for a couple of weeks. kinda fun.

i played hs ball for half a year, but was all-hit, no field and wasn't committed enough. my son throws as hard as i ever did — i just didn't have an arm.

I hear ya. I've lost the competitive edge a bit with baseball. I've actually abstained from playing basketball, I had a freak injury one year tearing all the cartilage in my right foot. Since then I've been very reluctant to even jump.

I've been wanting to try out those 1880 leagues, thinking about jumping on one in the coming weeks.

and your son's arm is only going to get stronger. Lots of potential.

[kunk75]

i love barry bonds but desperately want the yankees to grab him so i can watch it all implode.

[dunkin deeznuts]

The Red Sox are reportedly talking to the Diamondbacks, Mets, Phillies, and Dodgers, about Manny Ramirez, according to the Providence Journal. Ramirez is open to leaving Boston and said, "If the Red Sox think they can find a trade that is going to make the team better, and both sides are going to be happy, Im going to agree."

Our View

Philadelphia is seen as a logical trading partner because of the presence of manager Charlie Manuel, who served as Ramirezs hitting coach, and for a time, manager in Cleveland. The source suggests the possibility of Pat Burrell (who will also be free agent after this season) going to Boston in exchange for Ramirez. But the Dodgers do have the most young talent to offer, and could propose the best offer to Boston. The other two mentioned clubs are less likely to land Ramirez.

I would not like to see Manny in Philly but I guess he couldn't kill the Mets much more than Pat the Bat has done in the past...

[kunk75]

at least he can't kill the chemistry in philly he's no more prickish or mercurial than burrell.

omar will pick manny up in 5 years for 2 yrs, $26 mil with a player option for a third.

I would not like to see Manny in Philly but I guess he couldn't kill the Mets much more than Pat the Bat has done in the past...

[shoreman1782]

I would be amazed to see the Phils deal for Manny--that's exactly the kind of move they NEVER EVER make. The Mets and Phils may play chicken to see who is willing to pay what price, but my money is on Manny staying in Boston.

And +1 on Burrell, he kills the Mets. I wonder if the Phils will be able to keep him this offseason, he's really picked it up since the 2007 all-star break; even his defense has improved. Someone's going to pay him well. Keep in mind dude's only 31. Manny is 36.

[kunk75]

manny was born in ny, right? cause otherwise i'd say he might be 46 in born in the DR.

where was utley all weekend?

[dunkin deeznuts]

manny was born in ny, right? cause otherwise i'd say he might be 46 in born in the DR.

where was utley all weekend?

i'm pretty sure manny was born in the DR but raised here in the BX so he might have been in the US already by the time they figured out he could play ball but who knows. his english is still atrocious

[kunk75]

you can live in washington heights your whole life and never learns a lick of english.