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In Defense of Tapering: Conversations about Consumer Autonomy


Stacks

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You see, I have this bad habit of expecting people to back up their opinions with justifications. I'm not trying to call anyone out specifically; anti-taper sentiment is part of the sufudenim echochamber and I'm bored as fuck so here we go.

Out of one side of their mouth people scream for a hem when they diagnose sloppy stacks syndrome ("SSS"). Out of the other side they deride tapering (which cures SSS just as well).

Both are after-purchase alterations. Both alterations require a skilled tailor to preserve details: in the case of hemming, you need a tailor with a chainstitch machine or you sacrifice roping, whereas with tapering you need to taper from the inseam rather than the outseam or you sacrifice selvage/traintracks. The only difference that I can identify is that manufacturers arguably anticipate hemming by providing a uniform inseam to suit all heights of customer.

Which brings me to my point: the only justification I've ever heard for being anti-taper (beyond "that's just my opinion, everyone is entitled to their opinion, na na I can't hear you") is that altering the overall fit is somehow going against the manufacturer's vision/intent. I find that highly disturbing. To me, wearing a fit that doesn’t suit you out of some weird sense of “that’s how it was meant to be” is just as bad as wearing gaudy logos; in both cases you are working for the product/producer rather than vice versa.

The argument that tapering (at least from the knee down) affects the fade of denim fails to hold water. First, even on the most hard worn denim the area between the knee and the stacks/hem is nearly untouched because people don't regularly rub their shins up against things. Second, while you do see fades on the calf area that could potentially be affected by a taper, the difference is negligible and is no greater than if an individual user has bigger or smaller calves and wears the jeans "stock."

I'm not advocating mass-taperings here; I'm advocating against advocating against tapering. If an artificial taper makes a pair fit better on the wearer they are more likely to 1) put more wear into them and 2) be less tempted to replace them before their prime with the next-big-thing. Net result: better, more interesting evolutions and more entertainment for us all. And at what cost? One less exact clone on whatever recent pair people are bandwagoning around at the moment.

I welcome all arguments that may convince me that the manufacturer's vision should be prioritized over the individual consumer's enjoyment of a product.

_____________________/

25ewx36.jpg

tldr version: stop hating on tapering, it makes you a hypocrite or a slave to consumerism.

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the question is, why buy a pair of jeans that don't fit you in the beginning?

it's true that we could make mistakes during sizing, but supermarket makes it so easy to sell it off...

I for one is against tapering; I can't convince you that the manufacturer's vision should prioritize over individual consumer's enjoyment of a product, but there are so many different fits to choose from, why make something into something that it wasn't intended to be...

e.g. I had a pair of LVC 1937... it was supposed to be a remake of the original 1937, part of the heritage is the fit.. if I don't like the fit, I should've went for something else... in the end, I sold it... someone else is happy and I bought another pair that I'm happy with.

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I say do whatever you want to your jeans, although I personally get jeans for the specific cut I'm going to get....That in and of itself should alleviate most of the need to taper (unless you are bedriddenly skinny!) IMO...

For reference, these jeans were tapered....;)

i6xuo4.jpg

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I always try to avoid altering my jeans as far as I can. But i am an avid believer that people are free to do what they want with their jeans..

Altering jeans to get the fit you desire is not new, people have been tweaking the cut of their 501s for a long time. For me fit > fades or aesthetic..and every physique is unique, there will be times when you really want a pair of jeans but they dont come in the cut that suits you..so what is the sin of altering?

Having said that, I also understand the view on the other side of the table that says altering destroy the fit/cuts that are created by the brand.

Each to its own I guess. As long as we all can learn and appreciate a good denim than everything is good..

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I for one is against tapering; I can't convince you that the manufacturer's vision should prioritize over individual consumer's enjoyment of a product, but there are so many different fits to choose from, why make something into something that it wasn't intended to be...

so it fits the way you want? Are the manufacturers intentions really that important to you when you're the one wearing it everyday? tastes can change over time. say you have a favorite pair of jeans (lets say a non-repro for example) that you've been wearing for a while but your tastes change and you decide you want to tweak it a little. is that so wrong?

however, if you mean tapering a brand new pair of jeans, then yeah the person should've thought it through more and could've been avoided by choosing a different cut.

btw i've never tapered my jeans haha these comments are just for sake of discussion

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e.g. I had a pair of LVC 1937... it was supposed to be a remake of the original 1937, part of the heritage is the fit.. if I don't like the fit, I should've went for something else... in the end, I sold it... someone else is happy and I bought another pair that I'm happy with.

I knew someone was going to mention LVC; should have put it in the OP. Some people buy for heritage fits and then I agree tapering makes little sense. However, I would argue that the vast majority of people are enamored with the denim itself and are forced to choose between whatever cuts are offered.

Samurai is the best example of this I would say, although they are certainly not alone; their 710 model is far and away the people’s favorite (on this board) as it is the most modern cut available. However, most of their newest coolest denim gets put into S5000 or S510, a lucky few are integrated into the S0500 cut.

lol anti tapering sentiment?

It's lol to me too but you only need to go to the last page of the heavyweight denim contest thread to see it in all its glory.

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lol anti tapering sentiment? who cares what other people do to their jeans to get their desired effect? Would they be ostracized if they did a COLD soak for 20 mins as opposed to a boiling hot soak for an hour? I would hope not.

Hell, even when that dude painted his jeans gold, i thought that was dope as fuck. Why would i want my flathead 1001's to look like every one elses FH 1001?

Isnt that the point of raw denim in general? My jeans wont end up looking like yours no matter what. I dont have your body. I dont live your lifestyle. I live mine. My jeans reflect that.

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as this might be partially directed at me:

you´re taking this way to far, stacks.

DON´T get the samurais tapered. Just don´t do it....

i just told laxlife to not taper his jeans, cause i thought his would be good after a hem. ok,maybe i over emphasized, but this was only drected at that one guy´s samurais. i don´t have anything against tapering in general and had it done on a pair of 007s myself. wouldn´t do it again, though- will rather buy jeans that fit like i want them to.

imo everybody should do what they want with their jeans. i just thought that laxlife´s fit was good without a taper.

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I was being sincere when I wrote this isn't directed at anyone although the argument in heavyweight thread was the impetus. If I was driven enough I could comb through the backlogs and find its previous iterations (they are scattered because shortly after cropping up people start whining about derails and the subject is dropped).

Honestly, I think that the tapering argument is only a manifestation of what I was trying to get at: fetishizing manufacturer vision/intent. The most obvious other example I can think of in the same vein is the concept of brand synergy, or "these don't work together because they were not meant to work together by their respective creators."

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Some of this is probably directed at me too (edit: or maybe not, ha ha). Basically, I don't like artificial tapering, but if you want to it's your choice, its just a preference thing. My preference is to buy a cut that I like, but then again that would be my preference as I'm not too keen on a tapered cut, I even oversized my 710's.

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the question is, why buy a pair of jeans that don't fit you in the beginning?

I think here lies the truth as the anti-taper camp sees it.

I don't think the vision or philosophy of the brand should be prioritized over the enjoyment of the consumer...

but at our level of nerding, I'd expect most to buy from brands that they identify with (well, in terms of garment philosophy) in the first place.

Personally, altering the fit on jeans like repro jeans and, to an extent, on vintage-inspired jeans is altering the heritage and story of the jeans - I wouldn't want to do this.

But I certainly ain't anti-taper - people can do as they like, and ultimately a piece of garment should deliver function and enjoyment to the wearer. No point being a denim hobbyist if the jeans you're wearing don't make you happy.

Too loose in the legs? Sell or taper, who cares, do as you like.

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There's a long tradition of tapering - the original wardrobe mistress for Streetcar Named Desire claimed she customised Marlon Brando's jeans to make them skinnier (and to make him look even more rough trade).

The only time I've seen it dissed here, is when someone want to make wide pants into narrow ones. That rarely works, especially where the seat is wide-cut, too.

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Honestly, I think that the tapering argument is only a manifestation of what I was trying to get at: fetishizing manufacturer vision/intent. The most obvious other example I can think of in the same vein is the concept of brand synergy, or "these don't work together because they were not meant to work together by their respective creators."

Haha, yeah, there's a bit of that going on here.

But SuFu being some sort of a denim hobby group, it's hard to expect otherwise...especially when a lot of the marketing for SuFu brands revolve around the brand philosophy, garment back-story, how our manufacturing intent is superior to yours, etc.

Brand loyalty is like alcohol - good in small doses.

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I'd like to see some of this anti-tapering sentiment examples (or is this primarily in one thread?) because I really have not noticed it much if at all.

I know there's better examples but this was a cursory search just to half prove a point (sufu search sucks though :\).

"still can't believe how onje could "kill" the S510VX by hemming it to 27,5" and tapering it."

Is there any downside to tapering jeans other than losing the self edge?

yes, u'll look gay as well.... and you'll never be able to sell them again...

Is there any downside to tapering jeans other than losing the self edge?

They might/will/can look like crap?

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Haha, yeah, there's a bit of that going on here.

But SuFu being some sort of a denim hobby group, it's hard to expect otherwise...especially when a lot of the marketing for SuFu brands revolve around the brand philosophy, garment back-story, how our manufacturing intent is superior to yours, etc.

Brand loyalty is like alcohol - good in small doses.

For sure, so I guess to put it succinctly I find it interesting how that marketing clashes with the more over-arching tenet of raw denim being personal to the user.

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I see both sides of the argument. First off they are your own pair of jeans so the person who owns then can do whatever they want with them. But I don't think one should taper a brand new pair of jeans. If you bought the jeans you should know how they fit in the first place (skinny, straight), and if a person is looking to buy some skinny jeans but goes for wide straight leg jeans and then tapers them that is pretty ridiculous.

I am fine with hemming, and if need be getting the waist tapered because sometimes people do become fat... but you should buy jeans that fit, or are a little loose at first if you know you are going to grow (me).

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But I don't think one should taper a brand new pair of jeans. If you bought the jeans you should know how they fit in the first place (skinny, straight), and if a person is looking to buy some skinny jeans but goes for wide straight leg jeans and then tapers them that is pretty ridiculous.

Is it ridiculous? What if someone wants slim fit in X denim but the manufacturer only offers X denim in straightleg (this happens all the time).

Is it more ridiculous to spend 25-50 more bucks on 200+ dollar jeans to get the ideal fit or to wait months/years/potentially forever for that company to release the combination that you want? Or is it more ridiculous to "settle" for a different manufacturer with the cut you want but a less than ideal denim?

Is it most ridiculous to contemplate these things on the internet rather than spending your time productively? Probably but new job in 2 weeks and it kills time like a motherfucker.

Also I would note that Kiya has basically created a denim empire out of convincing repro brands to produce interesting denim in modern cuts (genius, really). Is there really a difference between buying a tapered fit with manufacturer consent versus doing it yourself? I think not.

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For sure, so I guess to put it succinctly I find it interesting how that marketing clashes with the more over-arching tenet of raw denim being personal to the user.

That's an interesting thought.

I guess it's always a balance of the factors, but in some jeans more so than others...e.g. a pair of LVCs will always strike me more as "hey, this is similar to how they made them before I was alive", rather than, "hey, nice personalised fades".

That's a big reason why I stopped buying so much 'brand' leather and had more custom work done.

I guess with denim it could get expensive as far as customisation is concerned.

Is it ridiculous? What if someone wants slim fit in X denim but the manufacturer only offers X denim in straightleg (this happens all the time).

Is it more ridiculous to spend 25-50 more bucks on 200+ dollar jeans to get the ideal fit or to wait months/years/potentially forever for that company to release the combination that you want? Or is it more ridiculous to "settle" for a different manufacturer with the cut you want but a less than ideal denim?

I'm actually one of those guys who will wait for months/years if it needs be.

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Stacks, I hear what you're saying.

Some Japanese manufacturers will probably never produce a slim taper jean, but make fantastic denim (e.g. Warehouse). It's an interesting contrast to the denim companies that are more progressive with their cuts (i.e. Somet, PBJ, Iron Heart).

I think it's a clash of heritage and fashion. The iconic cuts of denim are rooted in practicality (i.e. workwear), whereas the more modern cuts are a product of fashion trends. Only time will tell if the slim taper silhouette will become a classic.

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Is it ridiculous? What if someone wants slim fit in X denim but the manufacturer only offers X denim in straightleg (this happens all the time).

Is it more ridiculous to spend 25-50 more bucks on 200+ dollar jeans to get the ideal fit or to wait months/years/potentially forever for that company to release the combination that you want? Or is it more ridiculous to "settle" for a different manufacturer with the cut you want but a less than ideal denim?

Is it most ridiculous to contemplate these things on the internet rather than spending your time productively? Probably but new job in 2 weeks and it kills time like a motherfucker.

Also I would note that Kiya has basically created a denim empire out of convincing repro brands to produce interesting denim in modern cuts (genius, really). Is there really a difference between buying a tapered fit with manufacturer consent versus doing it yourself? I think not.

there are some instances that this has happened.. but it's rarely the case...

most of the time manufacturers have a different cut for the same denim... there's also options to size up/size down..

tapering is one thing.. .but as someone above has mentioned, if the seat area is huge, it's just going to ruin the jeans...

I would say tapering is a YMMV thing

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I was going to post something stupid until I remembered

I don't care what you do with your jeans.

Hem them to jorts. Taper them to jeggings. Enjoy.

I don't think anyone should alter the cut when it's a contest. I think there was some guy a while back who was painting his jeans and carving stuff into them or something, first day of a contest. Found that lame too.

Otherwise, *yawn*

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I know there are a lot of people saying, "Ohh do what you want with your jeans." "What someone does with their jeans is their own business." etc. etc. etc.

Well, I for one, say, "Do to your jeans only what I would do to my jeans." or better, "Don't do to your jeans what I wouldn't do to my jeans." or even further, "I forbid anyone to do to their jeans what they want to do to them. Please ask me for advice first, then I will give my advice and then you must follow it." This way everybody on sufu can look the way I think they should look. The WAYWT posts could all be coordinated properly.

Alright? Settled.

(10)

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I was going to post something stupid until I remembered

I think I just fulfilled that want of yours.

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