natural versus synthetic indigo

[shinobi2000]

to the guy who looked at the thread of his Nudie Veggies and saw that it wasn't white in the center -- do you have a pair that shows this contrast in blue and green?

After reading this thread, as informative as it is, I've come to the realization that ironically, knowing more about the dying process and its intricacies makes it less possible to accurately predict how a pair will fade and whether or not it will fade to our liking. In the end, because of all the countless variables, how a jean will look after fading is still empirical; with people comparing from their own experiences and what they've seen that so and so model from so and so company fades this way...and the discussion of how it happens follows after, not the other way around. Heh heh. I wish there was a surefire formula to apply so that when a company first announces the introduction of a new model of jeans with a certain kind of dye using a certain process etc. that we could accurately predict how it will fade...but I guess not.

[PG2G]

That's the fun part though

[shinobi2000]

wear the hell out of them, you'll predict your wear.

of course in theory, but i'm not one of those "life is like a box of chocolates" people...I read the descriptions and match them up to the pictures so that I know exactly what I'm biting into, caramel or nougat heh heh. If I have certain pairs that have faded a particular way (say yellowish blue for example) I'd like to add variety to my collection by purchasing pairs that will fade differently, say greenish blue maybe...or maybe not fade at all etc

[chantheman]

thanks ring ring

"Is it harder to break in natural indigo dyed raw denim than a pair that is made out of synthetic? my edo ai looks like it hasn't faded a bit."

A good question and something I'm keen to learn more about.

Comparisons between the two have been made ever since Basiche Anilin Soda Fabric (BASF) put Adolf Von Baeyer's synthetic 'pure indigo' on the market in 1897.

I strongly suspect that the performance of your Edo's is due to the dyeing method rather than the differences between synthetic and natural indigo. As pointed out above, there is no chemical difference between the two - in fact, according to the esteemed indigo historian, J Balfour Paul, even dye chemists cannot tell the difference between the two.

Natural indigo and synthetic indigo produce the same blue because they are the same. Which leads to the obvious question of 'why aren't all jeans the same colour then?' - which I'll get to later.

The trouble is when making these type of comparisons, you're rarely comparing like with like. The playing field is rarely level. Indigo is an inherently unstable dye that will change with exposure to air, humidity, temperature etc. Fluctuations in dyeing methods will cause different results even between separate lots of the same synthetic indigo. So things can have the same ingredients and be different. Heidi Klum and Jimmy Krankie may have the virtually same DNA but they look different

For example, natural indigo jeans tend to be the flagship styles from these denim brands, so I would expect that they have undergone a dyeing process far in excess of most denim, even other denim from their own collections. eg. more dips, more oxidation time, rope dyed instead of slasher dyed etc.

Then there's the impurities in natural indigo. Some, like indurubin (indigo red), tannins, flavanoids etc. are naturally occurring, others such as madder, carbon (indian ink), wood bark, weird stuff like red ants etc that are added by man.

My own experiences also vary and the opinions of people I'd consider genuine denim experts also have differed a lot. Some people tell me that natural indigo fades quicker, and that you can't achieve as dark blues with plant indigos, others have told me the opposite.

Some natural indigo jeans tend to hold on to their colour amazingly well despite frequent washing (eg 45rpm Aihikos, which also barely crock), others develop whiskers very quickly (Sugarcane Hawaii's, which crock like crazy). Modern natural indigo denim from mills like Tavex & Orta Anadulu seem to behave in very similar ways to their synthetic counterparts. (I believe they use Indian Indigofera Tintoria as the plant source).

Then of course many synthetic indigo jeans also fade faster than others.

"The source of the indigo can make a difference - I'm sure I've been told that indigo from the Far East is capable of giving a darker shade than that from europe, because it derives from different plants species."

That's probably a reference to Woad (isatis tintoria) versus Tade-Ai (polygonum tinctorium, or chinese indigo - most likely the source of indigo for those Edo Ai's). When fermented using the same traditional methods, the polygonum produces a far higher indigo yield. Woad also doesn't dye cellulose fibres like cotton as well as other plant indigo sources. Then there's a whole bunch of different woad species as well as many other Asian indigo plants (eg Strobilanthes flaccidifolius - the source of indigo used in Sugarcan Okinawa's), so again the possibilities for differences in vast.

"I have, however, seen early 1900s natural denim jeans on which the fade is fantastic."

Very likely to be a different dye source to the Edo Ai's, most probably from Indigofera Carolininiana - the species of Indigofera used commercially in North America, and different dyeing methods.

[Bigyen]

I took a thread from my pair of sd-103xx's (still unwashed). It's core dyed, which is what I'd like to discuss. When I untwisted it, the center was an iridescent blue green. I'm assuming these are going to take ages to break in, but wouldn't it be possible to achieve contrast fades over an extended period of wear? Abrasion will take place revealing the different shades towards the center of the fabric, and over time won't these areas lighten more as the indigo cracks off? Obviously, the less effected/darker area's will shed indigo too, but won't the difference between these types of area's reveal themselves over time?

[poly800rock]

if it's core dyed, you're right, it will take a longer time to fade as it's not fading to white as most cores are, it's fading to a different shade of blue which may or may not be noticable. do you have the sd103 natural indigo model?

[Bigyen]

Yep, the natural ones.

People have been able to break in core died jeans and the vintage jeans we emulate were natural indigo, so i assume something has to happen. I just haven't found any examples of broken in 103's or 101's with natural indigo.

[denimdestroyedmylife]

oh you know i should take pictures of the whiskering on my SC40400 hawaiis ---- it is definitely a lot more stubborn than ring-dyed jeans but you DO indeed achieve a fade ---- definitely not as contrasty but after two years it is definitely NOT an allover fade as some (prominent) people on this board suggest.

[Hendodo]

umm sorry , im sorta new to all these different techniques, but ive noticed Flathead jeans give up their indigo pretty quick. i also noticed that theyre ropedyed. so all ropedyed denim, give it up quick?? and core-dyed/other natural dyeing techniques dont??

[salaami]

umm sorry , im sorta new to all these different techniques, but ive noticed Flathead jeans give up their indigo pretty quick. i also noticed that theyre ropedyed. so all ropedyed denim, give it up quick?? and core-dyed/other natural dyeing techniques dont??

no, all rope-dyed denim doen't fade quickly, but some quicker than others. flatheads are known(and often bought) for their quick-fade properties. read ringrings post again SLOWLY. it'll all sink in. imho, all the factors he mentioned come into play when fade is concerned. but the biggest factor as far as i can tell is the depth of core-penetration. how you gonna get contrast if the core aint white? blue on blue aint gonna cut it. like ddml said earlier, you'll get some fade, but not as noticable a contrast. i really hope he posts pics...

[denimdestroyedmylife]

i will post pics before monday

i haven't contributed usefully to superdenim in ages so it will be nice to snap some evo pics this weekend

[denimdestroyedmylife]

as promised

my sc40400n

[mr.invincible]

AYAYAYAYAYAAY look at the streaks, so many blues.

[Bigyen]

Dope! are they core dyed?

[denimdestroyedmylife]

they are dyed to the core from what i remember

this is slightly comparing apples to oranges but to be sure i just untwisted a yarn from my ryukyu-ai and they are also dyed to the core (though the core was definitely a shade or two lighter than the outside of the yarn)

both of these AI jeans started out with a similar dark shade of indigo and they are fading similarly----of course, the hawaiis were a lot streakier----perhaps the dye did not penetrate to the core on the lighter yarns on the hawaiis....

[Bigyen]

Can you post the other pair?

[scoon0224]

Yep, the natural ones.

People have been able to break in core died jeans and the vintage jeans we emulate were natural indigo, so i assume something has to happen..

None of those vintage jeans were natural indigo.

AFAIK Levi's has been synthetic indigo ever since they switched from Amoskeag to Cone (in the 1890's?)

[erbs]

Yes, all Cone denim is synthetic. however, some of the old Amoskeag natural indigo pairs do have nice fades to them. I think it had to do with how hard/long they were worn.

[Stacks]

My S510XX AI-N are just beginning to break. I will take some sunlight pictures tomorrow.

Note, however, that S510XX AI-N uses natural dye but the cores have been kept white, so I'm already seeing some light blues and even white on the pockets after only 4-5 months of intermittent wear. Best of both worlds, in my opinion, although they are not streaky like the SCs or the Onis.

Hopefully they turn out as awesome as I think they will.

[Hendodo]

guys, jw, but are the brands like naked and famous, APC, and Nudie, are they all synthetic dyed?? sorry for the noob question , but id appreciate if you answer it

thanks

[denimdestroyedmylife]

APC and Nudie are generally synth but Nudie did a natch indigo ralph as i remember. beatle has a pair.

[Stacks]

guys, jw, but are the brands like naked and famous, APC, and Nudie, are they all synthetic dyed?? sorry for the noob question , but id appreciate if you answer it

thanks

You can usually tell by the price point, probably because synthetic indigo can be made en mass while natural indigo has to be harvested(not sure if that's the right word).

If it costs less than 300 and doesn't hype that it uses natural indigo, I assume synthetic.

[BrownMetallic]

i was hoping to sub the Sam Jins [collab proj.] when the FC contest wrap up, but the project hit a snag. instead, i've been rocking my 5000ai-10sp everyday now.

so far, i've read nothing but letdowns from ex/owners__ particularly, regarding blown stitches. dint want to open a new thread, so i thought i'd resurrect this thread to get some discussions about how to give their naturals a proper break in they deserve.

***note : this inquiry is not an exclusive Samurai 5000ai. the plan is to gather info :: either complaints and/or share their personal experience with natural or part natural indigo-dyed denim [eg, 45rpm & sugarcane, etc]__ to figure out and better understand the "beast", so owners can optimize & enjoy their full potentials.

Samurai s5000ai-10sp :: 17oz natural indigo dyed :: TTS @W33

initial hotsoaks x2: the

@9 m/o = 4 mos [effective wear] x 3 hotsoaks :: n0 wash

>>> early on, i knew the toughness & roughness [like burlap] of the denim seemed an overkill for the 100% cotton thread, so, i figured i should not treat them like breaking in a usual raw denim pair. i had to either [double] wash right away to flush out the starch & temper the yarns [on both fabric & thread] or take a more leisurely break in process [and soak on shorter intertervals]. i decided on the latter cuz i was afraid the waist would shrink beyond expectation.

'seems everytime i soak tho', the denim resets back to [almost] new condition and the weave gets tighter. good thing i managed to stretch the waist to a comfortble 34"__ don't know how it'll behave when i do a full wash.

current: @1 y/o = 5 mos [effective wear] x 4 soaks [3 hot + 1 warm] :: n0 wash :: n0 thread breakage [ei, due to preventive reinforcement on pressure points + "tempering" by muliple soaks]

[salaami]

i know how to treat em' proper...rock em like they are 30 buck wal-mart jeans, and wash em when they need it.

[BrownMetallic]

i know how to treat em' proper...rock em like they are 30 buck wal-mart jeans, and wash em when they need it.

oh, i mos def got no qualms gettin down & rockin a pair of $600+ jeans like they were thrifted from "Goodwill". however, time is a precious commodity & an irreplaceable resource__ such a bitch to squander them unwisely.

besides, i don't see much of "2 die fo" pairs around the forums. it just peaked my curiosity why ppl fear to tread ... to the end, that is. i know about how kids want the instant gratification & all that shiet. i know it'll always be a road less travelled__ just thought i'd holler back to the [masochistic] few.

[avonalliv8]

besides, i don't see much of "2 die fo" pairs around the forums. it just peaked my curiosity why ppl fear to tread ... to the end, that is. i know about how kids want the instant gratification & all that shiet. i know it'll always be a road less travelled__ just thought i'd holler back to the [masochistic] few.

i wish i could bring myself to buy some of these naturals. ive handled some sams, 45rpms, and SDAs and theyre gorgeous. but, honestly, the shit is expensive. its l just dont see the value add of doubling the cost of jeans that are already quite pricey.

[Stacks]

brownmetallic, you've inspired me.

[blm14]

brownmetalic, yours have held up way better than mine. See my posts in the samurai thread about how mine basically fell apart.

[Bigyen]

i wish i could bring myself to buy some of these naturals. ive handled some sams, 45rpms, and SDAs and theyre gorgeous. but, honestly, the shit is expensive. its l just dont see the value add of doubling the cost of jeans that are already quite pricey.

??? nat indigo 103's are 310$.

[Opie]

And KMW are even cheaper.