Jeans of the Old West: A History

[Sansome1877]

There seems to be similarity in construction of, say, Levi's from the 1880s and 1890s; but befreo that they were in some cases at least probably made by home-workers, as are many clothes are around the world today, so it's undeniable that some of them would have varied according to the worker.

It's looking more like Chinese sweat shops were manufacturing clothing before 1880.

[morse9443]

Chasing nothing, but enjoying the read.

[entertainment!]

Sansome1877 sent me some pictures to post in response to my question about the sewn on Levi's suspender buttons. Here are his comments:

"The quality of the button picture is not that good, the levi suspender button is pictured with some other buttons and a few rivets that were found with the levi's that were reduced to mulch. I added a jacket photo that did not make it in the book, it's from around the late 1860's to early 1870's. The jacket never had any pockets or cinch on the back."

Please send all rep Mike's way.

It is great to be able to see the back of the early rivets. Mike, it looks like the back of one of those rivets is made of brass, but maybe the photograph is distorting the color. You mention that brass was sometimes used for parts of the rivets in your book. Is this an example?

[Sansome1877]

No these are not the brass rivets, the rivets always had a little zinc added for strength. I surmise that more zinc was added (could be a mistake) and you ended up with yellow brass or bronze rivets. These rivets seem to be pretty rare. I will find one that I have laying around and take a good picture of it. I don't want the rep, Entertainment gets it for posting my pictures.

[pacioli]

Just want to add to the praise here. One of the most refreshing things about Michael is his openness. He hides nothing and is not afraid to share details, pictures, speculations. Too many in our industry tend to hide knowledge because they feel there is too much to lose...designers copying details [first--yes, first to copy], private collectors not allowing pictures because they rent pieces out to movie productions and to brands for copying, or simply fear not knowing what to say when pressed for deeper knowledge. Michael, as demonstrated on this discussion forum and in the book, is fearless and should be commended for that more than anything as that is what contributes to the denim community the most. His humble, yet knowledgeable, way is intensely refreshing.

[rnrswitch]

Just want to add to the praise here. One of the most refreshing things about Michael is his openness. He hides nothing and is not afraid to share details, pictures, speculations. Too many in our industry tend to hide knowledge because they feel there is too much to lose...designers copying details [first--yes, first to copy], private collectors not allowing pictures because they rent pieces out to movie productions and to brands for copying, or simply fear not knowing what to say when pressed for deeper knowledge. Michael, as demonstrated on this discussion forum and in the book, is fearless and should be commended for that more than anything as that is what contributes to the denim community the most. His humble, yet knowledgeable, way is intensely refreshing.

A pacioli siting.

I was witness to mikes willingness to share info. It is astounding as to how "non secretive" he is. He wants to solve these puzzles and is willing to swap ideas and listen to anyone and also to point out where he thinks certain folks have gotten it wrong.

[Sansome1877]

Oh, thanks. We (me, charla and russ) like trying to figure all this stuff out. Years ago we were first introduced to the vintage dealer community and we thought that there was a lot of secrecy and b.s. out there. Don’t know why denim dealers are that way, bottle hunters are not, they share info to try to get to the real history. We were strongly discouraged to write a book, which would make the info accessible to the public. It would kinda ruin the way things have operated, like an expert buying something for a fraction of its value and reselling it. I am not saying that it’s bad to make a living but I don’t like people trying to conceal history and stop research just because it benefits themselves. If the research doesn’t get out there to the public than anybody can claim they are an “expert†when they really don’t know shit. If I had a dime for every time someone told me that all of this stuff is “random†and because of the 1906 earth quake you will never know the real truth, I would have about 7 dollars. We are obviously still in progress with the research, and are relieved that there are people out there that relate to our interest.

[Sansome1877]

On page 143 H. Oslers 1863 patent, we didn't say that an example of this patent is on page 138 (far left). Note that the selvedge is on the inside seam, i don't know if this piece has a false outside seam (it's no longer in my collection) I lent a pant leg to a friend that also used this same 1863 patent, if I can get it back I will take good photos and post them. I almost forgot I have examples of 1874 Levi sewn buttons (they are rusty) I can take close up pictures of the buttons if some one wants to see them.

[rnrswitch]

The more pictures the merrier.

I love macro shots of hardware.

[SLAB]

yes, the book finally arrived!

btw is this the Warehouse interpretation of the jeans Sansome and Rising Sun made or is it based on another (later) model? note the presence of beltloops, tag is positioned to the side and the shape of the cinch is also different

[Paul T]

Just want to add to the praise here. One of the most refreshing things about Michael is his openness. He hides nothing and is not afraid to share details, pictures, speculations. Too many in our industry tend to hide knowledge because they feel there is too much to lose...designers copying details [first--yes, first to copy], private collectors not allowing pictures because they rent pieces out to movie productions and to brands for copying, or simply fear not knowing what to say when pressed for deeper knowledge. Michael, as demonstrated on this discussion forum and in the book, is fearless and should be commended for that more than anything as that is what contributes to the denim community the most. His humble, yet knowledgeable, way is intensely refreshing.

Absolutely.

There does seem to be a big void between the attitude of many designers - who are happy to share their knowledge - and some collectors, who will simply say "you've got that wrong", without revealing what they see as esoteric truths, to be concealed. Mike's work represents a huge leap forward for our knowledge of the early days of denim. I find the details of what denim was out there before Levi's absolutely fascinating and can't wait to read the book.

[Sansome1877]

yes, the book finally arrived!

btw is this the Warehouse interpretation of the jeans Sansome and Rising Sun made or is it based on another (later) model? note the presence of beltloops, tag is positioned to the side and the shape of the cinch is also different

I can post the pictures of the waist band piece I sold the warehouse guy a few years back, it did not have belt loops or a side patch.The A.B Elfelt Champion overall, was probably only made from 1876 to 1880. I know it could not have been made past 1884 because A.B Elfelt went out of business. The fit on the Rising Sun Elfelt version, is just like the originals that's in my collection and book( high waist and baggy) these fit skinny guys well.

[Sansome1877]

These pants would never have had belt loops.

[el duderino]

I don't have the book in front of me as I'm at work, but I thought Warehouse did a more accurate repro then the one SLAB posted based on some pants shown in the book

It's around the 7 min mark

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1912967810679567532

[Sansome1877]

I don't have the book in front of me as I'm at work, but I thought Warehouse did a more accurate repro then the one SLAB posted based on some pants shown in the book

It's around the 7 min mark

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1912967810679567532

I'm not sure about that, I know I used to send pictures to the warehouse guy that used to buy things from me. It could be that they took my pictures and made a better version. I know the warehouse guy (really really wanted to buy the ones I have) I sure am glad I'm not selling off my collection any more.

[Rivet Head]

Sansome - in the video they have the scraps of a pair of jeans that they patterned the Warehouse ones after. It also says they spelunked some ghost towns and abandoned mines to find the scraps. I think they are from 2007? I have a F&E with an ad. for them in it.

[Sansome1877]

I can't play the video on my computer but I sent pictures to Paul T of the original waistband I sold to warehouse. Would be funny if warehouse is making up a story about the piece i found.

[Rivet Head]

There's more than just the waistband in the video...they are also showing some photos of some abandoned towns too.

[Rivet Head]

Also, the pair they are showing has no belt loops and a correct cinch...looks like they have a Duck Digger tag on them!

[Sansome1877]

Pm me and I can send you the photos, The piece I sold was more than just a waistband it had the back pocket and the front pocket .

[rnrswitch]

yes, the book finally arrived!

btw is this the Warehouse interpretation of the jeans Sansome and Rising Sun made or is it based on another (later) model? note the presence of beltloops, tag is positioned to the side and the shape of the cinch is also different

Looks like they also updated the fit as well. The originals had a massive rise, which the Rising Sun jeans also have.

Is duckdigger still being made by warehouse or have they stopped doing that line? I have seen less and less of the duckdigger stuff on rakuten.

[beautiful_FrEaK]

Duckdigger can still be found on Warehouse's website...so I think they're still being produced.

Check www.j-clothing.com for a lot of stuff Warehouse&Co produces

[Sansome1877]

I think warehouse still makes duck digger?

[rnrswitch]

I don't have the book in front of me as I'm at work, but I thought Warehouse did a more accurate repro then the one SLAB posted based on some pants shown in the book

It's around the 7 min mark

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1912967810679567532

The jeans in the video are of a different model, nevertheless a model that is in the book, but not the AB Elfelts. Don't know what model they are, but it is a pretty accurate repro of the model from recollection. I am at work and don't have access to the book.

[rnrswitch]

I am also hesitant to think that they (warehouse) were trouncing around in mines to find those scraps. I would have assumed that if they did actually find the scraps themselves they would have had pics with them finding the scraps. I assume they purchased them as well.

[Sansome1877]

They are different? Wondering what's the difference. Small cinch?

[Sansome1877]

Is it a complete pair? How bout that trip?

[rnrswitch]

Is it a complete pair? How bout that trip?

Check your PMs.

Nah. It isn't a complete pair. These are the pair featured in the video.

[Maynard Friedman]

I am also hesitant to think that they (warehouse) were trouncing around in mines to find those scraps. I would have assumed that if they did actually find the scraps themselves they would have had pics with them finding the scraps. I assume they purchased them as well.

I think the J Crew marketing team actually discovered them on their behalf!

[el duderino]

here's an screencap of their washed version on top which has the patch in the center matching the scraps on the bottom