Mid-90's Underground "Pre-Backpack" Hip Hop Saved My...

[heBAY]

Doseone and Boombip - Circle

or is this too anticon white boy suburban thesaurus diving for you? it's at least more genuine than atmosphere

I don't think that's considered "mid-90's"...or maybe I'm not that up on it like that. But yeah definitely too Anticon for this thread haha...and yea, as I said, Dose is genuine as far as being the beatnick of underground hip hop.

I always thought that Slug was an incredible emcee with great talent but just couldn't establish himself consistently throughout the course of an entire album. (The same criticism, I suppose, could be leveled at Method Man.)

Part of the thing is, and this is what I think heBAY was getting at, is that I am kind of on the fence with regard to the legitimacy of hip-hop. I'm obviously not a purist, having grown up in a working-class part of Texas, but at the same time I'm grateful for hip-hop being diffused across the Internet so that I (and people like me) could really get into it. That said, I always felt a certain disconnect at Atmosphere and Sage Francis shows, given that a lot of those in attendance were suburban backpackers. It's funny; I ended up being kind of suspicious of people like me who came into hip-hop obliquely. Part of it I guess was because I wasn't white and well-off or black and listened to mixtapes but somewhere in between.

Tical wasn't a solid album?!?!??!?!!!!???!!? I know you know it was...your critique def. stands for the rest of his career.

And yeah, that IS what i was getting at. I'm tired.

Here's another classic:

Major Stress - A Day In Da Stuy (might have been "The Stuy"...forget)...a very smokey production from '95 by a younger Salaam Remi (of Nas and Fugees fame). Evil Dee played this quite a bit.

Oh yeah...anyone ever heard of Crime Fam? I still have this 12"...it's from '95 as well...produced by Younglord (Big Pun and Tragedy Khadafi fame)...and it's a Harlem crew featuring a very young Loon (surreal shit is...it was an indie release, but still had Bad Boy on it since Younglord was under Puff's production umbrella).

One last one...for all of the Wu Tang heads...KGB "Bless Ya Life"...I forget the label...the logo had a Rhino wearing sunglasses. Produced by RNS (of Wu affiliates like Shyheim and King Just fame)...beats were very '95 Wu. Best fact about this song is it's the joint you hear on Raekwon's Only Built 4 Cuban Linx in the interlude before "Glaciers of Ice" (from Evil Dee's Hot 97 show).

I may know too much, I have people PM'ing to ID songs.

[RAISED BY WOLVES]

Doseone and Boombip - Circle

or is this too anticon white boy suburban thesaurus diving for you? it's at least more genuine than atmosphere

Maybe it's the emotional whiteboy in me, but I would never call Atmosphere ingenuine.

I have a lot to contribute to this topic, but for now I'll just say a few things

-I saw Phase II drawing the co-flow cover in this spot on st. Marks called the R Store (just had a giant "R" on the front)

-Eminem playing to a packed crowd at Tramps and killing it so hard. (shades of brooklyn opened) and me almost passing out and having to sit on the floor after smoking a blunt of haze sans food and water. Was out past 2am on a school night for that shit and payed dearly.

-Shabazz The disciple. "death be the penalty" and redhook crime saga". 2 of the hardest joints of that era. Ever. Period. I called Kwame on WHCR Harlem radio (the uptown answer to stretch and bob and DJ Eclipse) and asked him to play on of those and he flipped his shit and played all three songs of the record back to back while praising the young kid who he could not believe requested that shit over and over.

-The Arsonists 12"- the session. that I bought at The R store same day I saw Phase sketching (along with a shirt he made you will never see anywhere ever) which changed the course of my life permanently.

[heBAY]

Maybe it's the emotional whiteboy in me, but I would never call Atmosphere ingenuine.

I have a lot to contribute to this topic, but for now I'll just say a few things

-I saw Phase II drawing the co-flow cover in this spot on st. Marks called the R Store (just had a giant "R" on the front)

-Eminem playing to a packed crowd at Tramps and killing it so hard. (shades of brooklyn opened) and me almost passing out and having to sit on the floor after smoking a blunt of haze sans food and water. Was out past 2am on a school night for that shit and payed dearly.

-Shabazz The disciple. "death be the penalty" and redhook crime saga". 2 of the hardest joints of that era. Ever. Period. I called Kwame on WHCR Harlem radio (the uptown answer to stretch and bob and DJ Eclipse) and asked him to play on of those and he flipped his shit and played all three songs of the record back to back while praising the young kid who he could not believe requested that shit over and over.

-The Arsonists 12"- the session. that I bought at The R store same day I saw Phase sketching (along with a shirt he made you will never see anywhere ever) which changed the course of my life permanently.

Yo...I was gonna post that next...beat me to the punch. Another Wu related joint...and speaking of the Arsonists...that's Freestyle's cousin. Those two Shabazz 12"'s were stupidly ill...I spun those two joints back to back to back...know them back to front...especially "Crime Saga." Had the rapidfire (ala Pun) flow on that there.

I remember Tramps...that was the spot for all of the "bigger" shows like Kool Keith and Organized Konfusion.

[RAISED BY WOLVES]

I remember Tramps...that was the spot for all of the "bigger" shows like Kool Keith and Organized Konfusion.

Yeah...back before rap shows were 85% white (excluding the performers).

You ever own or hear of this compilation by some british producer named Baby J? Shit had a gang of gravediggaz members on it amongst others, and Shabazz featured on a couple tracks including one particularly savage one going at Bob Diggi himself.

I only have it on Vinyl, but it's worth tracking down.

Matter fact, check it out here:

http://www.bombhiphop.com/newbomb/bombpages/birth.htm

[heBAY]

Ha nah I know the label and of Baby J...but I don't remember that one. Shabazz was easily one of my favorites from the extended Wu Tang family...

Another ridiculous underground/indie label Wu gem was DSA (Dark Skinned Assassin)...I lost my mind when I picked up the first 12" ("Gotta Get The Creme" B/W "Lock Shit Down" and "The Horror"). "Lock Shit Down" was retarded crazy ill...he sounded like a mini-Raekwon with a Method Man speech-impediment. His 2nd shit was fresh too..."Unholy" and another joint...I think I sold all of those shits like a fool...but I got the mp3's back yesterday.

Yo...it just hit me...how could I forget MF GRIMM. Not only was his Fondle Em Release crazy..."Tick, Tick"...but the shit he did before that on Dolo with B-1 was incredible. "Emotions"...the A-Side was a more club friendly joint (but not dancey...sorta that kind of cool out at the bar and get your drink type...the remix actually had Fat Man Scoop on it)..."International Rules" I THINK...or maybe that was the Dutchmin (another Dolo group).

Anyways...on "Emotions", Grimm did the whole "Who will survive in World War III, NONE!!!!" shit. Too many lines from that to quote...but I'll do a little:

"I'm the black Ted Turner, street money earner

United States flag burner

Battling me is some deadly shit

So come equipped with rhymes, guns and two extra clips

Aim for the head cause you don't wear a vest there

A bullet makes a window, ya brain needed fresh air"

Absolutely one of my favorite joints...ever.

B-1 also had a single with G Rap (both him and Grimm were on KGR's 4,5,6 album ...probably the best joint on there as well..."Take Em To War")...pretty good...I kinda slept at the time though since G Rap's verse was the one he used on Unkle's "Drums of Death"...I think Xtra-P/Large Pro did the beats (or maybe that was B-1's previous single...both were on Rawkus methinks).

And just one more...Street SMartz' "Metal Thangz" featuring OC and Pharoahe Monch...killer. Stretch played that A LOT...just like the MF Grimm single.

[RAISED BY WOLVES]

You should cop that shit off itunes, or at least find a site to give some tracks a listen. "The Truth" with Shaqueen Shabazz and Omen is sick. So are the "war saga" tracks or whatever they're called with Freestyle of the Arsonists.

I never listened to MF Grimm enough man...Gotta look into him more.

On the WU tip...what about Ruthless Bastards. They had one track on "The Swarm" and then that was it, but I later dug up an LP of theirs with a couple songs on it in a bin somewhere. Not exceptional, but really quality stuff...

[heBAY]

You should cop that shit off itunes, or at least find a site to give some tracks a listen. "The Truth" with Shaqueen Shabazz and Omen is sick. So are the "war saga" tracks or whatever they're called with Freestyle of the Arsonists.

I never listened to MF Grimm enough man...Gotta look into him more.

On the WU tip...what about Ruthless Bastards. They had one track on "The Swarm" and then that was it, but I later dug up an LP of theirs with a couple songs on it in a bin somewhere. Not exceptional, but really quality stuff...

"And I'm a bastard and you a bastard...everyone's a bastard..."

The way that joint drops with the first verse is great:

"These cold days

Got me in a physical rage (then something about "this invisible maze")"

On the Wu tip...what about Pop The Brown Hornet...had a video for his first shit..."Black On Black Crime"...and his 2nd 12" was ill too. One of them had DSA on the guest verse.

I got some MF Grimm shit for you...early shit is better than the post-MF Doom fallout stuff. I respect dude though...just he got some weird flow going on nowadays. His early shit is incredible though. The shit he did with Doom was always a highlight.

[readytoignite]

As far as the Automator goes, I prefer Shadow, RJ, Spinna, MEZ, Herbaliser for NT before him.

i dunno mate, the dr octagon album was a stone cold classic so he's gotta get credit for that. plus i don't think shadow did any appreciable production for other people besides random solesides joints and the unkle stuff (which is also great)?

not sure about honda, but now that i think about it didn't he have some boutique on lafayette around the same time the liquid sky & final home shops were down there? weird.

one really underrated producer in the shadow / krush / automator mold at the time was dj cam - had a single and an album that mo wax would have killed to have - single was titled "free your turntable and your scratch will follow" and album had an eric dolphy sample. done and done, thank you.

[heBAY]

I have to agree about Dan the Automator...the Dr. Oct. album was ridiculous...the Blue Flowers Remix was something I actually would have killed to get on vinyl, had it not come out on the rerelease (plus the instrumental album).

Didn't Shadow do a "hyphy" album with several Bay Area guys? Or was it just Keak Da Sneak?

[notesee]

Didn't Shadow do a "hyphy" album with several Bay Area guys? Or was it just Keak Da Sneak?

He came out with a Bay Area EP that had vocals from Keak Da Sneak, Mistah FAB, Turf Talk, E40, Animaniaks, The Federation, and Nump.

[arem]

-Eminem playing to a packed crowd at Tramps and killing it so hard. (shades of brooklyn opened) and me almost passing out and having to sit on the floor after smoking a blunt of haze sans food and water. Was out past 2am on a school night for that shit and payed dearly.

I was at that show too, MF Doom and some other group also opened. I thank that was actually the last live hip-hop show I went to, tired of being disappointed by wack performances.

not sure about honda, but now that i think about it didn't he have some boutique on lafayette around the same time the liquid sky & final home shops were down there? weird.

Honda's shop was still there until a couple of years ago, it was in the spot that Dunderdon took over, between G-Star and Supreme. It was there for years and I never once knew anyone that bought a thing there. Must have cost Honda and his investors a fortune to keep that place for so long.

[RAISED BY WOLVES]

I was at that show too, MF Doom and some other group also opened. I thank that was actually the last live hip-hop show I went to, tired of being disappointed by wack performances..

Dope.

I hear you on the second part too...Though I've been to many a show since, that was the first--and in some ways the best--hiphop show I ever went to.

[landho]

Tical [/i]wasn't a solid album?!?!??!?!!!!???!!? I know you know it was...your critique def. stands for the rest of his career.

I guess a good part of my dissatisfaction with Method Man is tied to my disappointment with him. Tical was a solid album' date=' but unfortunately that's all it was. It's no better than the fourth-best solo Wu album and it's nothing--[i']nothing[/i]--compared with Liquid Swords or Only Built 4 Cuban Linx. The thing is, I think Method is the most talented of all the Wu MCs by far. Three of my favorite verses of all time--no just Wu shit--are by Method Man ("Shadowboxin'," "Wu Gambinos," and "Dart Throwing"). I spun Tical quite a few times, but then I would find myself itching to listen to GZA or Raekwon instead.

When I heard "Dart Throwing," my mind was completely blown. Method's verse was insane. I thought that maybe Tical 2000 was going to be the redeeming record I've been hoping for all along. I bought it the day it came out and immediately rushed home. When I listened to it, that familiar sense of disappointment and dread creeped up on me. I listened to it again just in case, but it was obvious: T2000 was a mediocre record.

My comments re Tical were probably a little unfair, but the distance between what that record is and what that record should have been is substantial.

[heBAY]

Dope.

I hear you on the second part too...Though I've been to many a show since, that was the first--and in some ways the best--hiphop show I ever went to.

Word I remember my first show...Wetlands...shit was CRAZY for a first time live experience. It was some final eliminations for one of the big DJ battles...hosted by Organized Konfusion...Co-Flow actually headlined...I think the Arsonists were on the bill too (I can't totally recall, so those dudes too many times at various non-existent venues).

It was back in the summer of '97. It was the PR Day Parade weekend...Saturday night. Trains mad crowded and loud. I remember a lot of that night like yesterday though.

-The line was stupid long...saw my boy Mike Wright (We Skate NY) ahead in line (cut mad people)...got inside to a packed Wet Lands and immediately saw a cipher with Necro, El-P and some other heads.

-The DJ's went on forever...some were ill...I think 5th Platoon were mostly competing that night...before everyone knew them. I remember Total Eclipse going off on a showcase routine...as he always does. Some other cat with dreads had a routine using Keith Murray's verse off of LL's "I Shot Ya"...and somehow had a shot of something which he pulled out and threw back during the "straight no chaser" line. Audience received that very well.

-Supernat invaded the stage and rhymed for way too long. Never was a fan of him...or his son.

-Pharoahe and Prince spit that shit over Wu Tang's "Triumph"...lost our minds.

-It was like 3:30am - 4:00am once the actual performances started...I think it was possibly Natural Elements...and yeah, Arsonists...then Co-Flow killed it.

Got outta there around 6:00am...Hip Hopped out smelling of many a vice. Got in trouble the next day. Yes.

[heBAY]

Tical was a solid album, but unfortunately that's all it was. It's no better than the fourth-best solo Wu album and it's nothing--nothing--compared with Liquid Swords or Only Built 4 Cuban Linx. The thing is, I think Method is the most talented of all the Wu MCs by far. Three of my favorite verses of all time--no just Wu shit--are by Method Man ("Shadowboxin'," "Wu Gambinos," and "Dart Throwing"). I spun Tical quite a few times, but then I would find myself itching to listen to GZA or Raekwon instead.

When I heard "Dart Throwing," my mind was completely blown. Method's verse was insane. I thought that maybe Tical 2000 was going to be the redeeming record I've been hoping for all along. I bought it the day it came out and immediately rushed home. When I listened to it, that familiar sense of disappointment and dread creeped up on me. I listened to it again just in case, but it was obvious: T2000 was a mediocre record.

My comments re Tical were probably a little unfair, but the distance between what that record is and what that record should have been is substantial.

WOW...that is a very very very bold statement right there. I can agree with him being one of the cats who still can be somewhat relevant or at least versatile...but when you got Rae and Ghost walking the planet...Meth, to me, pales in comparison. I actually love Tical and think it IS way better than the 4th Wu effort...because it not only marked a great period in Hip Hop, but was somewhat groundbreaking and you could hear the hunger in every piece of music on that album...from the beats to the raps...they were just out to get it. I think it was everything it "should have" been for sure. It opened the door for Liquid Swords and the rest.

I don't blame you for wanting to hop to the Purple tape or Liquid Swords though...that was when they were a bit more refined...especially on Rae's shit...plus Tical is a very dark album...remember that came out when Redman did Dare Iz A Darkside...which wasn't dealing out a very typical vibe either. LS and Only Built have more moods attached to them...whereas Tical is just some tour through the dungeons of his highed up mind.

[heBAY]

Thinking about it a little more, I know why you favor Meth over the rest...I had a boy who was like that for the longest until he had Ghostface and Rae broken down to him. Meth has A LOT of that hip hop charisma...he has a lot of fun with his delivery (both voice and flow)...so don't take it as me arguing against your opinion...perfectly valid.

I'd only argue if you'd said T2000 was better than Ironman.

[landho]

I actually love Tical and think it IS way better than the 4th Wu effort...

Just to clarify (I want to pick your brain all day, but I have to meet up with someone)--I think that Tical is worse than Liquid Swords, Only Built 4 Cuban Linx, and Ironman. I said it was was the fourth-best of the solo Wu albums....

But I think Method's game has passed him by; I haven't kept up with recent developments, so I don't know how he ranks now....

I will give Tical several more listens soon, maybe even tonight in the car,

given your endorsement of it.

[heBAY]

Oooh I thought you...okay yeah...enjoy the grimness and murkiness that is that album. Turn it up though...it thumps surprisngly well.

[landho]

One last note!

What I mean is, I think Method had the highest ceiling, the most potential, but he never followed through on it, while GZA, Ghostface, and Rae all ended up doing superlative things over the course of their careers while Method did not.

Maybe my hope that Meth would do something over the top during his career was one that would never be fulfilled? Maybe the verse he dropped that I adored so much were just smoke and mirrors...?

[landho]

My view of Meth can be summarized as this: moments of absolute brilliance but could not maintain that brilliance over the course of a sustained work.

[heBAY]

One last note!

What I mean is, I think Method had the highest ceiling, the most potential, but he never followed through on it, while GZA, Ghostface, and Rae all ended up doing superlative things over the course of their careers while Method did not.

Maybe my hope that Meth would do something over the top during his career was one that would never be fulfilled? Maybe the verse he dropped that I adored so much were just smoke and mirrors...?

I definitely would say that he was one of the spotlight members...or I guess he seemingly had the most potential by 36 Chambers...that's why he had a solo track on the group album...an incredible fucking masterpiece of a solo track at that. That's also why he was first to drop...I think they really planned it out like "okay Meth has got the people's attention...he's a performer..."...ODB was a great follow-up cause...well..he's ODB and it was all about going left field. That's why all of the heads with the strongest personas came out first...not Inspektah Deck or Masta Killa (though many people favored them, they just didn't prove to be as expansive as the previous).

My view of Meth can be summarized as this: moments of absolute brilliance but could not maintain that brilliance over the course of a sustained work.

Bravo.

[__CB__]

Masta Ace and Non Phixion both dope as mentioned too.

[heBAY]

That album has some ill stuff on there.

Funny thing though, I never really thought of Priority Records as being truly indie or underground...weren't they a majorly funded label, or a major label that handled distribution? Not like Rawkus wasn't...but I think they were slightly lower scale in comparison...at least when they first started.

[RAISED BY WOLVES]

Now that I think about it, the afformentioned show was most likely NOT my first, and now that you say that, I think my first might have been at wetlands.

That was the spot back then. I saw many a great non-phixion/arsonists show there back when.

But yo. Whatever happened to that one cat B.One or some shit from Soundbombing 1??? I was bumping that track "Empire Staters" the other day in the ride, and just thinking to myself: "damn...this is suprisingly classic material" (in that it was still dope and relevant 11 years later, if not more so). Never heard anything else from him, but then again I didn't look hard....

[Appleseed]

_JhAe0Yoa3w

From '92/93, but pressed on ABB vinyl in '97-

[__CB__]

That album has some ill stuff on there.

Funny thing though, I never really thought of Priority Records as being truly indie or underground...weren't they a majorly funded label, or a major label that handled distribution? Not like Rawkus wasn't...but I think they were slightly lower scale in comparison...at least when they first started.

yeah but the way ras got screwed around by priority definitely kept him 'underground', never really got any mainstream attention. rasassination was disappointing, but i liked some of the van gogh / golden chyld tracks (that never got released) - kinda stop checkin' for his stuff after that (coupla mixtapes i heard weren't exciting me much).

[heBAY]

Now that I think about it, the afformentioned show was most likely NOT my first, and now that you say that, I think my first might have been at wetlands.

That was the spot back then. I saw many a great non-phixion/arsonists show there back when.

But yo. Whatever happened to that one cat B.One or some shit from Soundbombing 1??? I was bumping that track "Empire Staters" the other day in the ride, and just thinking to myself: "damn...this is suprisingly classic material" (in that it was still dope and relevant 11 years later, if not more so). Never heard anything else from him, but then again I didn't look hard....

Fam did you not see my previous post about Grimm and B-1??? I think I may still have the "Empire Staters" 12"...and his next one that featured (Kool) G Rap. You never heard G Rap's 4,5,6 album? He's on "Take Em To War" with Grimm (before the MF and before Grimm was shot up and put in a wheelchair). He also does his thing on Grimm's "Emotions."

Oh...another good Grimm track is "Bloody Love Letter"...I don't know how much more genuine you can get (the song's him writing his girl a farewell letter as he's bleeding on the ground from getting clapped up...true story?).

Wetlands was DEFINITELY the spot...might have been the venue Ifrequented the most in my life.

[heBAY]

Anyone ever hit up the Rocksteady Anniversaries? I'm sure you NYC cats all did.

[heBAY]

yeah but the way ras got screwed around by priority definitely kept him 'underground', never really got any mainstream attention. rasassination was disappointing, but i liked some of the van gogh / golden chyld tracks (that never got released) - kinda stop checkin' for his stuff after that (coupla mixtapes i heard weren't exciting me much).

I think Ras' biggest songs were (in this order) "Miami Life," "Soul On Ice Remix," and "Come Widdit" (with Ahmad and Saafir...that actually got more airplay than "Soul On Ice"...gotta love The Box).

[notesee]

Hebay, what's up with that mixtape you mentioned putting together earlier? Did you complete it? What artists were on it? Were there any heads you wanted on the tape but you couldn't get to come through?