Designer "inspired" items

[Fuuma]

What is your take on items that are basically variations/rips on existing designs? What are the implications? For example I see blackcissors is pretty popular here, how do you feel about that as a member of a design-centric community?

Not really a trash thread but not sure where to post that stuff...

[Charlie Delta]

FUCK BLACKSClSSORS!!!

[Fuuma]

FUCK BLACKSClSSORS!!!

I missed that beautiful exchange. I guess you sorta understand my feeling of bewilderment at the popularity of this thing.

What about japanese denim though?

[polishmike]

Personally, I don't believe in copyright so I don't mind Black Scissors etc. I think if you worry about other people copying your design/style you shouldn't be a designer. On the other hand when people want to copy you that partially means that you've "made it". Also if you don't like "copies" don't buy them.

[chingon]

I missed that beautiful exchange. I guess you sorta understand my feeling of bewilderment at the popularity of this thing.

What about japanese denim though?

touche 10 char

[larssss]

this should be in fashion not trash because its a super interesting topic that will probably divide a lot of people and maybe make you rethink your own opinions.

All fashion is referencing something thats been done before so can you really hate on people who directly copy (designer inspired) rather than reference (designers)?

I don't know, I avoid fakes like the plague and try to stay away from designer inspired stuff (yesstyle etc) but even amongst the designer labels theres often so much similarity it can be hard to not call a direct bite.

maybe this doesn't add anything to the debate, but maybe it will get people started

[todesengel]

why is this a big deal. you either spend the $$$ and get the brand and assurance of quality or you save money and get an off brand imitation of questionable quality. this phenomenon is not unique to clothing.

you guys get mad at off brand toasters and flatscreen TVs too? get off your high horse, this is how the world has worked for quite a while

[landho]

Brian Eno, one of pop music's great innovators, said that the most innovative pop music was 94 percent derivative.

[Fookums]

I think the difference between fakes and something like Black Scissors is that Black Scissors doesn't attempt to market themselves as the real thing, and the quality of something bought off the street, and [from what I've seen] of Black Scissors [and other replica items] is really different.

Also, the idea of wearing a design is more appealing to me than wearing nearly the same design + a name [as long as the quality is very similar].

[Fuuma]

why is this a big deal. you either spend the $$$ and get the brand and assurance of quality or you save money and get an off brand imitation of questionable quality. this phenomenon is not unique to clothing.

you guys get mad at off brand toasters and flatscreen TVs too? get off your high horse, this is how the world has worked for quite a while

I didn't word any opinion myself so this thing could go on with various viewpoints, no need to get excited.

[polishmike]

I didn't word any opinion myself so this thing could go on with various viewpoints, no need to get excited.

This might turn into almost a political debate. They tend to get people pretty excited.

[Fookums]

^^

I missed that beautiful exchange. I guess you sorta understand my feeling of bewilderment at the popularity of this thing.

Isn't that supporting CD's opinion though?

[todesengel]

I didn't word any opinion myself so this thing could go on with various viewpoints, no need to get excited.

sorry that was aimed more at the people getting angry at blackscissors

[Fuuma]

^^

Isn't that supporting CD's opinion though?

I meant in the "opening post" that set the tone and wasn't really confrontational. I feel strongly about this myself but my opinion isn't, I believe, without nuances.

[chris]

what about designer "inspired" designer items? julius anyone?

[Fuuma]

what about designer "inspired" designer items? julius anyone?

Augusta boots that are an almost complete copy of a Poell design, down to the white colour?

[Charlie Delta]

Imagine two kids, let's call them John and Pete.

They are both following a summer artcourse.

Pete is really passionate about drawing and really wants to do his very best, John however is only in the class because it gains him extra points/grades/whatever.

At the end of the summer there is a small show and all student are allowed to try to sell their work.

The teachers ask all students to draw the same thing (lets say a bird), and eventhough all students draw the same subject, all drawings will be different because of the way the students interpreted the bird, how good they can draw, their knowledge of the materials used and how eager they are to learn...

Pete has spend all summer researching for his drawing, used all his savings and even borrowed money from his parents to buy the best crayons and pencils he could find.

John hasn't bothered to do any of this.

The end of the course comes closer and Pete get's really good reactions to his drawing, the teachers are enthusiastic about him (not just his drawing but his whole passion towards creating...), and John notices the attention Pete is getting.

Finally, at the end of the summer the kids begin setting up their small stands to show and maybe sell their work.

Pete only shows one drawing, but this one drawing has got all his time, money and devotion in it, and John sees that his own uninspired drawings pale in comparisson.

The night before their show opens John "borrows" Pete's drawing without asking, and carefully traces it, making sure that he changes very small details so the teachers won't be able to get mad at him, but also making sure that he doesn't change the things that make the drawing so good.

John also has acces to a colour photocopy machine at home and initially makes a 100 copies of the drawing wich he plans to sell for 10 bucks each.

The next day their work is revealed and family, friends and relatives come to have a look.

Pete is hoping to sell his one drawing for 100 bucks, as he thinks this is what all his time and devotion to the drawing are worth and also hopes to make back his savings as he used those to buy material and maybe a little bit extra.

John his stand is right next to Pete's and in order not to get the teachers on his neck he makes sure that he doesn't say that he's selling Pete's drawing. The visitors see their drawings next to eachother, and they really like it, it's a beautifull drawing afterall. But not really being able to recognize what exactly it is that makes Pete's drawing so good, and wondering why his is so much more expensive than his neighbours they opt to get the cheaper version, as John his photocopymachine is so good that for the untrained eye it is hard to distinguish the difference between the two drawings anyway.

It turns out that Pete is having a hard time selling his $100 drawing, while John is making a fine buck with his copies of Pete's drawing...

And apart from maybe giving John a bloody nose there is nothing that Pete can do about this...

Those are my 2 cnts,

Fuck John and in this case fuck Superfuture® for affiliating itself with someone like John and fuck all the people who wanted Pete's drawing but opted for the cheaper copy especially since them being "superbored global shopping experts" and all they should be able to distinguish the difference between the two!

[Disillusioned]

^word. did you write that yourself?

i don't know much about blackscissors, but i know that some knockoffs and "designer inspired" apparel are made under conditions that are inferior (and unethical), e.g. sweatshops, etc. even if you want to save a buck, it's not worth the injustice, much less the fact that by stealing someone else's designs, you quite literally are stealing art, just like in the story.

[eric glennie]

C Duck! The irony is deafening. This Pete is hearing you loud and clear.

There are a lot of John's riding off hard working Peters.

[macuser3of5]

I feel like you are holding back, Mr. Duck. Please tell us how you really feel.

[Charlie Delta]

Don't even get me started on you crap Glennie!

[polishmike]

John his stand is right next to Pete's and in order not to get the teachers on his neck he makes sure that he doesn't say that he's selling Pete's drawing.

John is not selling Pete's drawing, he's selling a copy. Most of the people will be able to distinguish between the two physical objects. When two of them are next to each other a sensible consumer will acquire why there is such a price difference. Pete can explain that John just copied his drawing.

Most of the people who buy "fakes" or copies are fully aware what they are purchasing. Whatever their reasoning is, it's not for you to judge how they spend their money.

Just so you know, from a marketing value, companies like black scissors don't hurt Dior or other designers they copy. All of the fakes in Chinatown don't hurt LV. These people would never buy originals because they can't afford them.

I respect your opinion and values. I don't see anything wrong with you following them but I think it's fucked up for some government regulators to decide for me how I can spend my money.

(My ancestors also invented pants, everyone who wears them now owes me some money. Expect a bill in your mailbox anytime now.)

[Charlie Delta]

Essentially for me it's not about who get's hurt or not, about where the money goes or about rules and regulations.

It's about the integrity of an idea.

[Fookums]

So like, whats your opinion on repros then?

Shouldn't repro companies not copy designs that were originally Levi's/Lee/Wrangler/etc?

Or how about the Self Edge collabs that're based off the dior cuts?

Not meaning to be interrogative, just curious 'bout your opinions on those "copies".

[Charlie Delta]

The way I see the Japanes repro denim is that it originally was created from a love for a certain type of jeans from a certain era, a love that went way further than just the red tab and arc.

A few of the people who loved those vintage Levi's so much wanted to reproduce those jeans, as they were get harder and harder to find in the vintage market and Levi's themselves was way too busy churning out "Mom jeans".

The originators of the repro denim went to extremes to get their jeans as close as possible to the original, only changing the arcs and tabs slightly because they weren't allowed to simply copy them.

This is one of the cases were I'd say that "imitation is the highest form of flattery"...

What they do is (in my eyes) completely different from a "see this item, you want it but can't get it, we'll make it for you for cheaper" mentality.

[eric glennie]

Don't even get me started on you crap Glennie!

Duck, you seem like a very intelligent guy, but you can be a little vulgar.

I think this is a great discussion about the Johns and the Peters in the world of fashion. Your term Johns and Peters are very ironic because there are designers out there preying off the inspiration of other designers.

John's have the money to pay for what they want , John's pay to get off , and John's f&%k anyone weaker, smaller, and unsuspecting and yet face themselves as the pillars of society.

Peters are very intelligent inventors: quite, carefree, loving, trusting and usually sport giant cocks. Peters would love to show the world their giant phallus, but before they can show off , Peter's get jacked-off, or for better case Johnned-off, and then we are left holding our big bald head in the wind. Eric Glennie is sporting the biggest wood in the forest and the fashion world has never seen a Phallus the size of EG's. I am loving and trusting, but unfortunately I have a mouth as big as my Peter.

[onemancult]

....i want to get johnned off.

ducky, please be aware that the blackscissors issue is not one that is quite so deftly quickly and cleanly resolved. so please don't fuck us with your massive quackcock.

[dismalfuture]

I can see Duck's point, and agree that BlackScissors is no better than Canal Street stuff, but really, repro jeans fall into the same category, right? I think the BScissors part just comes a bit too close for C. Duck's comfort as the copying is more conspicuous and quality is not addressed, whereas the jeans seem a bit innocuous because they come with more padding in the form of time and are made alright because the repro companies are offering old-world quality in a marketplace that doesn't offer it normally, if I'm seeing this correctly. In principle, Duck is going two ways, but in practice I can see how that kind of works, I suppose.

Wouldn't the BlackScissors case be the same if we all had Rolls Royce Phantoms and paid $300,000 for them, they discontinued that model this year, and then next year the Chinese bring over this car, and sell it at $20,000? I suppose there'd be quite a few people angry because they see it as devaluing their $300K purchase, and another group of people still happy with their Rolls and satisfied they're sitting inside $300,000 as long as other people know it.

[dismalfuture]

Anyhow, I am returning the RICKOWEN shoes (for which I had to go all the way to the homeland to cop) that I was gonna send C. Duck for his birthday, now that I know how he feels...

[sidneylo]

I can see Duck's point, and agree that BlackScissors is no better than Canal Street stuff, but really, repro jeans fall into the same category, right? I think the BScissors part just comes a bit too close for C. Duck's comfort as the copying is more conspicuous and quality is not addressed, whereas the jeans seem a bit innocuous because they come with more padding in the form of time and are made alright because the repro companies are offering old-world quality in a marketplace that doesn't offer it normally, if I'm seeing this correctly. In principle, Duck is going two ways, but in practice I can see how that kind of works, I suppose.

Yeah, that point is debatable I suppose. I see it as a difference in context—repro jeans cite antiquated craftsmanship and tradition and are being sold as such (including it's price and availability). That's a far cry from replicating something in a more affordable fashion to undercut and maximize margins on a hot trend.