Denim as an art form?

[weirdnjfan1]

This topic is also posted over in Superculture. Another poster suggested that it might do better here.

Alright I've been reading here for a little over a year now, looking at the evolution of jeans photos, the different brand oriented topics, the Sammy contest, and the WAYWT thread. So after some major thinking over for a while and with a little help from taking a photography class last semester and also looking the the gallery at school, I was wondering what you guys would think of the idea of doing some kind of gallery with denim. I know that Selfedge has a couple of pairs on display, but I'm talking about doing something along the lines of a gallery type thing with pictures of the jeans evolving and the final product of how they turned out. I really think that it would be an awesome thing to see pairs of jeans hanging from the ceiling, floating a few inches from the ground, with pictures of the jeans and a back story on the person who wore them and what they did.

The only problem that I might have with this besides getting the gallery space, cause I know that it would be the most expensive part of the project, is finding people who would be willing to do this. This would be the hardest part due to the fact that a lot of people don't really know about raw denim. My best guess is that if I told someone they would have to wear the same pair of jeans for six months to a year, world really gross them out.

The second would be the concept of the gallery. I know that a lot of people have no clue why I would be willing to show off a bunch of smelly (I'd probably have the people involved in this project wash them before they gave them back), worn jeans in an art gallery.

Those are really my only two biggest worries, besides finding floor space. So I have a couple of questions.

1) How should I go about this if I were to do this? Have the "models(I use this term loosely)" wear the jeans for six months or for a year?

2) What brand would be the best for this? I was thinking one of the Japanese brands like Sugarcane or Samurai or maybe even Nudie.

3) How would the gallery be set up? Would the jeans be hanging from the ceiling or displayed in frames. Also, pictures leading up to the final product or none at all.

4) How many pairs would I want to be roughly involved in this project? I was thinking around 5-10 pairs of jeans, might that be too much?

If I ever get the time and the money, I'd like for this to happen one day, but hey a man can dream for the time being.

[denimdestroyedmylife]

not to be a negative nelly but...

even as interested in jeans as i am, i would not go out of my way to look at faded jeans hanging on a wall

an art gallery is not very much in the spirit of denim; if someone said, hey, there are 30 pairs of jeans in this coalmine, that may peak my interest

a natural fade isn't art IMO; there's that age-old example of a madman in a forest hacking at a piece of wood-----the artifact that results is not art, even if it resembles a bear with his genitals in a beehive; intent is what transforms an object into art, though we often do not have access to the artists intent, and even if we do, it may be best to disregard it

but yeah... dreams are nice. sometimes i dream about my jeans fading and i wake up and find that they are fading but more slowly than my dreams were leading me to believe

[theLorax]

to make a gallery i think you'd have to go beyond the dry/selvage break in process and also display the different styles and colors of denim, denim that has hand painted artwork on it, basically all forms of denim, not just our niche. this will give more diversity and interest to people who dont know or care much for raw denim.

[tangerine]

Sounds more like an idea for a denim museum than an art gallery.

[jubei]

I could see it more as a part of a museum than an art gallery necessarily... and it might carry more weight if you included stuff from other cultures' indigo useage (India, Southeast Asia, Japan come to mind)

[Guest]

I could see it more as a part of a museum than an art gallery necessarily... and it might carry more weight if you included stuff from other cultures' indigo useage (India, Southeast Asia, Japan come to mind)

I too see it as a museum. What about a denim graveyard.. When your jeans have been worn so hard and repaired so often that it's time to say bye bye, you donate them to the cause and they are hung up and immortalised for future generations to see

[ringring]

I'll also go with the museum idea, and like Jubei, would love to see a travelling exhibition on indigo, it's history and use in different cultures.

I was recently admiring the indigo stained elm bark robes made by the Ainu people, shown in the British Museum and pondering such an idea.

There would be an enormous amount of ground to cover. For example, one could consider some of these dates...just a quick and rough version...

6500BC - evidence of Neolithic blue bark fibre garment found in Catal Huyuk, Turkey, believed to be coloured with woad.

6000BC - First evidence of warp weight looms found in Hungary

3000BC - Hemp is used through Central Asia & Northern China

- Evidence of very good knowledge of indigo dyeing in India

2500BC - Evidence of murex dye (Tyrian Purple) being used in Minoan Crete

2400BC - Indigo dyed linen used in Egypt - found on mummy cloths

1324BC - Tutankhamun's funeral state robe coloured mainly blue indigo

1050-221BC - Zhou Dynasty, China. Spindle wheel developed, eventually to mass produce spun silk

700BC - Iron Age, Woad dyed fabrics appear in northern europe

600BC - Indigo dyeing on wool described in a Babylonian tablet - discovered in the British Museum 1993

500BC - Indigo dyeing recorded being traded in Yemen. The Bible mentions in Ezekiel, blue clothes being traded.

100BC - Indigo actively cultivated in SE Asia

300AD - harvesting and dyeing of woad, including urine fermentation described in Hellenistic Greek writing, Roman historians first write about the Picts (Painted people) and the legends of them being coloured by woad begin. There's some debate about Caesar's comments about "Blue coloured Britons".

500AD - Aztecs producing indigo resist (tie dye) cloaks called xiuhtlalpilli

- Indigo reaches Japan via China

650AD - Cotton indigo ikats found from this period on Israel

800AD - Indigo already documented in Africa via Arab scholars

618-906AD - Tang Dynasty embraced indigo batik as court dress

1200 - Indigo being grown in Spain, introduced by the Moors

1300 - Imported tropical indigo being used to dye cotton & linen in Italy. Indigo use spread throughout Europe, leading to the demise of woad production

1500 - Spanish writers note the dyeing expertise of the Incas & Aztecs. Mayans are also widely using indigo already.

Early 1800s - Blood is split on the Indigo used to dye the uniforms of the armies of Napoleon and Britain.

1860s - American Civil War results in a cotton famine

1872 - Jacob Davies tells Levi's Strauss about his idea of riveting men's pants.

1873 - Levi Strauss & Jacob Davis gain US patent number 139121 on the invention of riveting pants. They produce the first 'waist overalls' in 9oz ecru selvedge blue denim which feature the arcuate, watch pocket, cinch back, and rivets.

1890 - 501 lot number given to the riveted waist overalls

1891 - Cone Mills founded in Greensboro, North Carolina

1902 - Levi Strauss r.i.p.

1904 - Blue Bell Inc starts and by the 1940s becomes the biggest producer of denim workwear in the USA.

1912 - HD Lee opens his factory in Salina, Kanvas and introduces the Lee Union-All a year later.

1914 - Due to the Russian Revolution and WW1, vast areas of flax cultivation were destroyed, forcing up linen prices by 600%. Cotton use surges as a result.

1926 - Lee introduce the zip-fly to jeans

1927 - Cone Mills produce 10oz red selvedge exclusively for Levi's 501s

1933 - Sanford Cluett invents Sanforization

1936 - Levi's make the Red Tab

1947 - 'Rodeo Ben' Lichtenstein designs the first pair of Wrangler Jeans for Blue Bell Inc - see Cheeps post below

1962 - Cone Mills introduces Stretch Denim. Edwin becomes the first company in Japan to produce jeans.

1964 - Wrangler are first to use the John Neil Walker invention, Broken Twill, in the seminal 13MWZ style.

1975 - Edwin claim to be first to produce stonewashed jeans commercially. It's also been claimed that Marithe & Francois Girbaud invented stonewashing.

1983 - Cone Mills introduce XXX denim which is marks end of shuttle loom selvedge denim on 501s

...etc

and other things that have popped up, whilst writing...The Tuareg - Sahara nomads who are renowned for their love of indigo. Adorning their clothes, skin and hair. The H'Mong 'the blue people' of China....Indigo Samurai robes, indigo robes of Chinese courtiers...

There's a lot more. Futhermore, I'd like to nominate Paul T for curate

[thelion1856]

I'll also go with the museum idea, and like Jubei, would love to see a travelling exhibition on indigo, it's history and use in different cultures.

I was recently admiring the indigo stained elm bark robes made by the Ainu people, shown in the British Museum and pondering such an idea.

There would be an enormous amount of ground to cover. For example, one could consider some of these dates...just a quick and rough version...

6500BC - evidence of Neolithic blue bark fibre garment found in Catal Huyuk, Turkey, believed to be coloured with woad.

3000BC - Hemp is used through Central Asia & Northern China

- Evidence of very good knowledge of indigo dyeing in India

2500BC - Evidence of murex dye (Tyrian Purple) being used in Minoan Crete

2400BC - Indigo dyed linen used in Egypt - found on mummy cloths

1324BC - Tutankhamun's funeral state robe coloured mainly blue indigo

1050-221BC - Zhou Dynasty, China. Spindle wheel developed, eventually to mass produce spun silk

700BC - Iron Age, Woad dyed fabrics appear in northern europe

600BC - Indigo dyeing on wool described in a Babylonian tablet - discovered in the British Museum 1993

500BC - Indigo dyeing recorded being traded in Yemen. The Bible mentions in Ezekiel, blue clothes being traded.

100BC - Indigo actively cultivated in SE Asia

300AD - harvesting and dyeing of woad, including urine fermentation described in Hellenistic Greek writing, Roman historians first write about the Picts (Painted people) and the legends of them being coloured by woad begin. There's some debate about Caesar's comments about "Blue coloured Britons".

500AD - Aztecs producing indigo resist (tie dye) cloaks called xiuhtlalpilli

- Indigo reaches Japan via China

650AD - Cotton indigo ikats found from this period on Israel

800AD - Indigo already documented in Africa via Arab scholars

618-906AD - Tang Dynasty embraced indigo batik as court dress

1200 - Indigo being grown in Spain, introduced by the Moors

1300 - Imported tropical indigo being used to dye cotton & linen in Italy. Indigo use spread throughout Europe, leading to the demise of woad production

1500 - Spanish writers note the dyeing expertise of the Incas & Aztecs. Mayans are also widely using indigo already.

Early 1800s - Blood is split on the Indigo used to dye the uniforms of the armies of Napoleon and Britain.

1860s - American Civil War results in a cotton famine

1872 - Jacob Davies tells Levi's Strauss about his idea of riveting men's pants.

1873 - Levi Strauss & Jacob Davis gain US patent number 139121 on the invention of riveting pants. They produce the first 'waist overalls' in 9oz ecru selvedge blue denim which feature the arcuate, watch pocket, cinch back, and rivets.

1890 - 501 lot number given to the riveted waist overalls

1891 - Cone Mills founded in Greensboro, North Carolina

1902 - Levi Strauss r.i.p.

1904 - Blue Bell Inc starts and by the 1940s becomes the biggest producer of denim workwear in the USA.

1912 - HD Lee opens his factory in Salina, Kanvas and introduces the Lee Union-All a year later.

1914 - Due to the Russian Revolution and WW1, vast areas of flax cultivation were destroyed, forcing up linen prices by 600%. Cotton use surges as a result.

1927 - Cone Mills produce 10oz red selvedge exclusively for Levi's 501s

1933 - Sanford Cluett invents Sanforization

1936 - Levi's make the Red Tab

1947 - Wrangler introduce the zip-fly to jeans

1949 - 'Rodeo Ben' Lichtenstein designs the first pair of Wrangler Jeans for Blue Bell Inc.

1962 - Cone Mills introduces Stretch Denim. Edwin becomes the first company in Japan to produce jeans.

1964 - Wrangler are first to use the John Neil Walker invention, Broken Twill, in the seminal 13MWZ style.

1975 - Edwin claim to be first to produce stonewashed jeans commercially. It's also been claimed that Marithe & Francois Girbaud invented stonewashing.

1983 - Cone Mills introduce XXX denim which is marks end of shuttle loom selvedge denim on 501s

...etc

and other things that have popped up, whilst writing...The Tuareg - Sahara nomads who are renowned for their love of indigo. Adorning their clothes, skin and hair. The H'Mong 'the blue people' of China....Indigo Samurai robes, indigo robes of Chinese courtiers...

There's a lot more. I nominate Paul T for curate

wholey shit! the GOD of sufu posted!!!! fucking awesome!

[Guest]

wholey shit! the GOD of sufu posted!!!! fucking awesome!

Hah! I love it when ringring posts. You definately know your stuff RR!

[lilldavid]

GREAT post RingRing! But didnt Lee introduce zip-fly to jeans as early as 1926?

[ringring]

You know Lildavid, I think you are right.

Well, that's trying to write up a bunch of numbers in a hurry for you. Thanks for the history lesson

[tweeds]

reading that list, it's interesting how the very long and geographically varied history of indigo as applied to a multitude of fabrics and purposes has become funnelled into a very american-centric pair of cotton twill pants.

[viv1984viv]

Lots of really interesting posts here, for me tangerine as pretty much hit the nail on the head, it would be difficult to push old jeans as art, ive been on in arts education for about 6 years now and I really think this would be a tricky thing to pull off, I expect the majority of viewers would find it funny and nt take the jeans seriously.

You dont see old coins displayed as art, they are displayed as interesting artifacts of historical significance, in a museum context, not in a white cube. My advice would be to approach this as a project, research, display and curate a history, mythopoiethesize (sp?) a thread, fiction, story involving denim, then exhibit this project a art.

Or just abandon the word "Art" and display interesting denim articles in a more museum based context.... document a competition, archive rare products..... yknow?

[cheep]

wrangler 13mwz was in 1947 also RR... awesome post tho.

[ringring]

wrangler 13mwz was in 1947 also RR... awesome post tho.

Thanks, I know that's when the 13MWZ was launched. It's in 1964 that they make them in broken twill.

...unless I am not understanding something. Anyway, I'd welcome any additions to the timeline.

[cheep]

yeah, you had rodeo ben designing the first wrangler jeans in 1949.... they were introduced in 47. 1949 IS the year that wrangler first had rodeo cowboys endorse their product tho... so it is an important year for them.

[ringring]

Whoops typo. Yes, it's 47. Same time period as pinnacle of 501 evolution

Thanks Cheep.

[cheep]

no problem... i figured it was just a typo since im sure youre the one who i learned that from.

[Clench Million]

The only problem that I might have with this besides getting the gallery space, cause I know that it would be the most expensive part of the project, is finding people who would be willing to do this.

If you gave people a free pair of raw selvedge jeans I think you could get enough people. I'd do it you sent me a pair of APCs or Nudies. ie, they get to keep the jeans after the gallery is done.

But if you are expecting people to wear smelly jeans for 6 months and get nothing in return....

[weirdnjfan1]

If you gave people a free pair of raw selvedge jeans I think you could get enough people. I'd do it you sent me a pair of APCs or Nudies. ie, they get to keep the jeans after the gallery is done.

But if you are expecting people to wear smelly jeans for 6 months and get nothing in return....

Trust me, after all the hard work, I would be sending them back.

[Clench Million]

[quote name=denimdestroyedmylife;577809

a natural fade isn't art IMO; there's that age-old example of a madman in a forest hacking at a piece of wood-----the artifact that results is not art' date=' even if it resembles a bear with his genitals in a beehive; intent is what transforms an object into art, though we often do not have access to the artists intent, and even if we do, it may be best to disregard it

Your conception of art is correct, however I think you are applying it wrong in this case. It is true that someone wearing jeans and having them fade naturally has no artistic intent and is thus not making an art product. However, weridnjfan1, who is designing the project and the exhibition, does indeed have intent (how good or artistic it is is debatable, but it is certainly intent).

It is like an exhibit I saw at a musuem recently that had a robot with markers on the bottom who was programmed to spin around randomly making unique parterns each time. The robot has no intent and thus the robot is not an artist. But the person who made the robot and had the conception of a robot making unique drawings had intent.