Just Saw Michael Moore's "Sicko"

[Sayword]

I have a question for international superfuturians;

Is your healthcare really free, or do have to pay for somethings? Is your drugs as good as the ones in america? And are taxes a bitch?

Just wondering, because moore is notorious for leaving things out of his movies.

[phelen]

Sure, the NHS has its problems. But I've never seen anything as bad as in America. But it's more that with the (frankly corrupt) system they have, as long as you can afford the treatment, I had assumed it would be of a better quality than what we get on the NHS. My grandparents are very patriotic, capitalistic Americans, and so always defended the American system. So, I always assumed it to be better than ours, as long as you overlooked the massive social injustice of it. But it's not. It's worse than the NHS. And not only is it worse, but if you're poor you can't get anything, and if you're rich you have to pay a huge amount of insurance (more than we pay via our taxes usually), and most likely you'll end up paying an insane amount on stuff that your insurance doesn't cove

[goldengloves]

I just read a review on it as well (latinoreview.com) and I was wondering the same damn things.

I've dealt with U.S health care before and it was/is particularly a bitch when I broke my wrist and had to have surgery. (I say is, because I still get calls and bills, and other random shit) But free healthcare? That would be very nice, unless the taxes are some ungodly amount.

[Sayword]

I don't want to be a bastard, but if anyone would like to see this movie, pm me

[Lucas]

I am also curious about car insurance in Europe.

I heard it's not required? Car insurance is so ridiculous in the U.S.

[wild_whiskey]

The stupidest thing to me is that the main defense for the American healthcare system is, "Well I don't think the government can be trusted with healthcare, they're too corrupt." Yet statistics show that monetary waste is MUCH lower in government-run programs than in corporations. An example is in the Postal Service compared to Fed Ex and UPS.

Yuck, it's just a big mess and it really blows my mind that people seriously defend the US healthcare system like it's a beacon of working capitalism. I don't have a single friend who can afford to pay for their own healthcare. It's just ridiculous. I'd take a small dip in quality of treatment if it meant I could actually afford to go to urgent care.

[polishmike]

Yet statistics show that monetary waste is MUCH lower in government-run programs than in corporations. An example is in the Postal Service compared to Fed Ex and UPS.

I would like to see those statistics.

I grew up in the communist countries and as a kid a visit to the dentist for me was something like a torture chamber in the movie Hostel. To this day healthcare in Poland and Russia is on a very very poor level. Some of you guys wouldn't believe the condition of some hospitals in Poland, country that's a member of the almighty EU.

[Sayword]

Those are some interesting post Polish mike and WW.

The most interesting part is when he took some 911 volunteers to cuba, and they got taken care of for free. The cubans have a pharmacy on like, every block, and a hospital aroun the corner. I was just suprised that the quality (looked) pretty good. I know, thats a pretty dumb thought.

[polishmike]

Sayword, I didn't see the movie but I don't see why Cuba can't have a state of the art hospitals. But one hospital doesn't mean that the system is working.

During communism eastern block countries also had pharmacies everywhere but they didn't have advanced medicine like US has or were good 20 years behind. If you had a cold they told you to take a lot of vitamin c and if you had acne they gave you alcohol to put on your face. It was free but it was shit.

I lived in Poland (or around) till 10 years ago and I was never given an anesthetic when I went to the dentist. We were used to the pain cause when we were kids the dentist would remove your tooth without any anesthetic. To this day when I go to the dentist in US I never ask for the anesthetic. When you broke a bone they put you in a shitty heavy cast for 3 months, it smelled like dirt after two weeks but there was no other choice. When I saw the lightweight casts in US in around 93-94 I was shocked. We couldn't even get our cast a little wet.

I know it's not like that in Sweden but I'm pretty sure Cuban conditions are pretty close to what I'm describing.

[Sayword]

Wow, that sounds really fucked up

[Tiranis]

It's not that perfect, I'm about to go watch a movie so I can't elaborate. But I've lived through what polishmike is describing, and it's true that in most countries with government health care the situation isn't really that good.

Now living in Canada, the situation is way different. But trust me, it's not all perfect... and it's definitely not completely free. I'll try and get into it further once I'm back.

Sayword PM me, as I would like to see the movie before I try to compare the healthcare here. I'm not that knowledgeable when it comes to US healthcare and tax system.

[alex_844]

basically healthcare in a lot of the first world is "free at the point of delivery." how its managed differs from country to country. canada, sweden, japan, germany, uk all are free at the point of delivery (for the most part) but the actual care is paid for in different ways.

and polishmike, you were asking about statistics about monetary waste, and while i don't know about that per se, it is commonly accepted that the overall cost of US healthcare is significantly more than in countries with public health care. one set of statistics i have lists health care costs (as % of GDP) for the US at 14%, Canada 10% and Germany at 9% and Japan at 7%. if you do a search you should be able to find something comparable, however depending on how calculate healthcare costs are calculated for the statistics it can vary.

i am very interested in seeing this movie as i have just finished a course studying comparative health politics. i have pm'd you in that regard sayword.

[MilSpex]

In Australia if you earn just a little over minimum wage you have to start subsidising the poor and unemployed`s health cover by paying a Medicare levy. So because you went out and got a decent job and did something with your life now you somehow owe the people that didnt. Its bullshit. Gimme America, low taxes and user pays health insurance anyday. America also has the most affordable and best healthcare and drugs on earth.

[doczein]

this thread is on some higher-level shit. and it's in supertrash.

alot of industries in america seem to be on a "strings attached" basis. this reminds me of the cell phone industry. in america, only certain models of cell phones are released from cell phone companies, and even then, they are only released through carriers like t-mobile, verizon, etc. who often times make you sign contracts and enter into "plans" and whatnot. only certain carriers have certain phones, so if you wanted the latest motorola q or iphone or whatever, you'd have to terminate your contract and sign up with another carrier.

in indonesia, where i'm basing my experience from, and i'm sure in a lot of other countries, cell phones and minute plans are independent from each other. you buy a cell phone first from a cell phone retailer, and they're virtually all unlocked (in fact, the word unlocked isn't even used as that's the default), then you buy SIM cards with a certain amount of minutes or money to them independent of the phone you purchased (which is what the majority of the people use) or you sign up for a sim card with a monthly plan (not as popular). any sim card can be used with any cell phone. easy as that. no contract strings attached, no exclusive carrier phones that would require you to switch carriers, none of that.

oh and did i mention that "content" you would have to pay for in the states is virtually free? i mean seriously, having to pay for ring tones and shitty cell phone wallpapers and screensavers is fucking ridiculous. overseas downloading a ringtone is as easy and free as right clicking an image and pressing save on your internet browser.

i honestly think that americans are trapped into these convoluted, complex, and money-sucking industries because they have not experienced another "way" of doing things. the way the health or cell phone industries run are regarded basically as the universal "norm" by americans, and they don't see that they're getting their funds sucked from them, and that a different system would do them much better. much like russians under communism, hm...

[chronoaug]

I took a comparative politics class freshman year and we had to write a 10 page paper on some kind of issue. I talked to the teacher after class one day and he had coffee with me and 3 other students and blabbed on and on about universal health care, even getting us to sign something. I wrote my paper on universal health care and made sure to include all the points he brought up. Got a 98 on it too. The best studying in my college career.

[showbiz00ditc]

healthcares bomb in canada i'd say

except...

we dont have enough doctors to handle the demand so theres huge waiting lists

and we have to pay for like crutches if we break out leg, or the cast n stuff but not really for the doctor part of it all

shit my boy from the bahamas said he had to get 3 stitches n it cost 600$

then to go back a few days later and basically only get the bandage changed, another $300

[isoform]

Sure, the NHS has its problems. But I've never seen anything as bad as in America. But it's more that with the (frankly corrupt) system they have, as long as you can afford the treatment, I had assumed it would be of a better quality than what we get on the NHS. My grandparents are very patriotic, capitalistic Americans, and so always defended the American system. So, I always assumed it to be better than ours, as long as you overlooked the massive social injustice of it. But it's not. It's worse than the NHS. And not only is it worse, but if you're poor you can't get anything, and if you're rich you have to pay a huge amount of insurance (more than we pay via our taxes usually), and most likely you'll end up paying an insane amount on stuff that your insurance doesn't cove

it really is beyond unethical what's happening here in the US.

and postal service v. fed ex or ups?? i also am a bit skepitcal about the gov't--look at FEMA after Hurricane Katrina. and running healthcare isn't like purifying water or streets & sanitation or the DMV--it's more like running FEMA if not much more involved i'd imagine.

I really don't want to be hammered with taxes or rely on an overloaded system and wait long periods of time for supposed elective surgeries or stunt advances in medicine and medical technology -- but something has got to change because it makes no sense what is going on right now (in my personal experience [in two weeks I'm going to pay $2080 to remove 4 wisdom teeth out-of-pocket] and in this news story).

[thelion1856]

amrican companies will do anything for profits. thats why "american" product are such cheap supershit quality. In every industry products in america are cheap. I remeber i went to a store called Kohls with my cousin a month ago and i was looking in the mens section at their levis, i noticed they were NOT made in america but mexico. so then i looked at their other brands, quicksilver, tony hawk tee's, and a bunch of other crap they were selling. In looking in the men's department i did not see a SINGLE item that said made in america. i saw taiwan, afganistan, china, korea, mexico and a shit load of other 3rd world countries.

the funniest thing was a fucking American Pride shirt with eagles flags and all that crap all over them and they were fucking made in china. i wanted to take a pic of it to post on sufu but i was like fuck it. i should have though, it would have been perfect for this post.

[junglejane]

I've been living in Italy forf 3 years now and I pay around 134 euros a year to get complete medical coverage which includes everything except cosmetic surgery. Italians get it for free as a right. It's utopic, the idea is great but sadly the doctor's competence isn't the best. I went to the optical ward at the public hospital to get my eye looked at (because it was always red) and they told me I had conjunctivitis (pink eye) and prescribed me some eye drops.

My BF took me to his private eye doctor (I had to pay 100 euros) and he was appalled at the diagnosis of the hospital. I had a deep scratch on my cornea and had to be treated immediately because if that shit got infected I was fucked. He prescribed me a bunch of stuff like antibiotics and cutting edge eye gels and lo and behold, I am cured.

I think the sole idea of having free healthcare is comforting to citizens, and I firmly believe that there are good, competent doctors out there but from mine and friends of mine's experiences, they are few and far between. If you want good, quality service you have to pay for it.

[NESK]

healthcare in canada is pretty good. having the government control it is amazing when you have the flu or a broken bone, because you can go to the clinic or emergency room and the service is free. prescriptions can be pricy, but drug plans help. post secondary students get alot of benefits form their schools. a diagnosed learning disability can make college alot easier as the government sponsors alot of funding to the point where kids fake ADD to get thousands of non recoupable dollars every semester. so it gets taken advantage of.

on the other hand, major issues like heart/lung transplants can be really tidious under government supervision. waiting lists are fucked when your dying. iive seen some friends and loved ones go because the bureacracy of the system leaves them to die while they file the paperwork. however, id rather see everyone get a fair shot then watch all the healthy organs go to the sick people who have the ability to bid higher. so its a tough call.

[duofold]

(Here in the US) I pay nearly $6000/yr for medical insurance...without stepping foot inside a hospital/clinic.

I'm afraid of getting sick, but not because of the illness.

[alterion]

Every time i go to america i've seen people trying to raise money for medical treatment. - one of the most messed up things about america I've ever seen.

The NHS for all its politisiing and rough edges is actually pretty damn good as far as I'm concerned. We get the same drugs as you do in the states and high quality doctors. And for all intents and purposes yes its free for all at the point of use (some things like dental treatement cost a small amount). If they were to try and fiddle with it less it would be better still. We like to moan about it but we consider it a vital national institution and the idea that someone who i sick should be refused treatment because of the cost is frankly applaling to me.

Healthcare on the contient works differently In each country though as a UK nationl i get it free anywhere.

Some of the best hospitals i've seen we're in france where the government funds 90% of all costs for patients (and 100% if your unemployed ect iirc) so fees/insurance is much more affordable than anywhere else but there is still a small "capitalistic" drive behind the system.

I still prefer the NHS though just from an indealistic viewpoint. (and ultimatley the care i've recived in NHS hostpitals is as good as anywhere just not as speedy (because of nightingale filtering ect ). Our taxes are higher here than the US but they pay for a much more developed welfare state and you do have stupidly low taxes for a developed nation.

[DJ2xTech]

I've gotten these...Healthcare Facts sheets from going to this event. The particular session at the event I went to talked about Filipino nurses and the healthcare crisis in the USA.

Some of what's on the fact sheets I got, I'll write here. The organization that put them together are the California Nurses Association and the National Nurses Organizing Committee. I think they're for enacting a Single Payer Healthcare system in the US.

Who Profits from the Healthcare Crisis -

Hospital profits - $28.9 billion (2005) a record. Hospital Revenues, $544.7 billion (Modern Healthcare, Dec. 18, 2006)

Donations from healthcare industry to Democratic and Republican campaigns for 2006 - $72.3 million (Modern Healthcare, Dec. 18, 2006)

The 20 largest HMOs in the US made $10.8 billion in profits in 2005. The top seven US health insurers made a combined $10 billion, nearly triple their profits of five years earlier. 12 top HMO executives pocketed $222.6million in direct compensation in 2005 (Institute for Health and Socio-economic Policy)

Close ties exist between the lawmakers and the industry. Billy Tauzin, who shepared the 2003 Medicare bill through Congress, which specifically bars the government from negotiating drug discounts for the new Medicare prescription drug benefit, subsequently went to work for the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America at an estimiated $2 million per year (Krugman, NY Times, May 6 2005)

----------------

The Cost of Healthcare - More Americans Priced Out of Care

National healthcare expenditures - $2 trillion (2005). Healthcare is 16% of the GDP (2005), expected to rise to 20% by 2015 (Modern Healthcare, Dec 18, 2006). Healthcare costs doubled from 1993 to 2004, according to the Centers for Medicare and Medicard Services (Washington Post, Jan 10, 2006)

1/5 of all Americans, 48.8 million individuals, were in families spending more than 10% of their income on healthcare in 2003, an increase of 11.7 million people since 1996. Of these, 18.6 (7.3%) were spending more than 20% of family income a figure normally associated with home ownership. The percent of middle-income Americans (22.7%) spending over 10% of their income on healtcare was almost idnetical to the percent of low-income Americans (23.7%) on healtcare (JAMA, Dec 13, 2006)

Hall of all personal bankruptcies are caused by illness or medical bills. The number of medical bankruptcies has increased by 2200% since 1981 (Health Affairs, Feb 05). 2/3 of people with a medical bill or debt problem went without needed care due to cost (Commonwealth Fund Aug 2005)

From 2000 to 2005, health insurance premiums rose by 73% compared to an aggregate increase in workers' income of just 15% (Chicago Tribune, Jan 31 06). Premiums rose 3 times faster than wages and inflation in 2005 (UC Berkeley Center for Labor research and Education, Dec. 06)

---

Falling Access to Care

Uninsured, national - 46.8 million (15.9% of the populatioin), 2005, up from 45.3 million in 2004. Hispanics have highest rate of uninsured - 32.7%, African-Americans - 19.6%, Asians, 17.9%, Whites 15%, children 11.2%; middle-income ($50-$75k), 14.1%; work full-time - 17.7% (US Census Bureau). 82 million, or one in 3 non-elderly Americans, went without health insurance during 2003-04 (Washington Post, Dec 13, 2006)

[horriblyjollyjinx]

Is your healthcare really free, or do have to pay for somethings?

There are fees and you have to pay for some drugs, but most of it is "free". Which means, you payed for someone else, and someone else payed for your healthcare, which is bad by itself because it means you can't make demands if you receive bad care as there's nothing for anyone to really lose by doing so.

Whereas a private company would be eager to make sure the patient is satisified, it isn't as much of a concern to something government run.

All individuals and organisations do in fact exist for themselves, they try to maximize $, workers will try to do as little as possible.

In the government run hospitals there are very few/small incentives to give good service, whereas treating the patient well is everything for a private company.

Obviously, you'll receive both good and bad care from both types of institutions, but in general, private care is better.

I've switched to a private dentist(costs no more than my other one) and I'm very happy, very good service, the people who work there seem to like their work a little more, the waiting room is much better. If something happens during a weekend I can call the dentist and get taken care of immediately, cant get that from the state owned dental hospitals.

My experience with state owned dental care: dentist dont really care or listen to me, grumpy people, they do what they think is best without really taking notice of my feelings or opinion, there is very much of a "my way or the highway" thing as I dont(or didnt use to) have elsewhere to go.

People in publicly run organisations are less happy according to surveys and definitely earn less. Swedish doctor get what an American nurse does.

There's also a lot of bullshit like a strive for "equality" - doctors are supposed to do the same things as nurses.

My mom is a doctor and because of this she nowdays spends more than half her days doing paperwork, and learn the new journal programs they get when a new boss comes in. However, the work burden and amount of patients increase eventhough the doctors have to do loads of paperwork but there are always cuts being made.

These hospitals do not look after their employees the least bit. A lot of people have worked til they got burned out, this includes my mom and many colleagues.

Again, every organisation exists for itself. If it already has money, what incentives does it have, what can it strive for other than to minimize costs?

Bosses are not recruited on basis of knowledge or anything that a normal organisation would consider, my mom have had an ex-military as a boss and it didnt work out well to say the least.

"One interesting thing about the top six states is that they achieve their top positions in very different ways. Sweden reaches 4th place almost entirely because of a solid victory in the Outcomes quality discipline, and with very poor performance on Accessibility."

"What is also strongly indicated is that the Swedish healthcare system would be a real top contender, were it not for an accessibility situation, which by Belgian, French and German standards can only be described as abysmal."

The ques for treatement are long..

http://healthpowerhouse.com/media/RaportEHCI2006en.pdf

According to this report, doctors here have great knowledge but it's very hard to actually get taken care of.

Obviously, state owned hospitals can't and don't increase the skill or knowledge or doctors. However, the mismanagement in them severely lowers accessability.

The healthcare here is a planned economy, every hospital gets "$X for cancer" and so on, the reality and patients' needs are not the #1 priority.

Patients treated per doctor/year (from a Swedish book, "Den sjuka vården", "the sick healthcare"):

Kanada: 3 176

Danmark: 2 069

Sverige: 903

"Economic Calculation In The Socialist Commonwealth"

http://mises.org/econcalc.asp

Is your drugs as good as the ones in america? And are taxes a bitch?

Just wondering, because moore is notorious for leaving things out of his movies.

I think our drugs are almost as good, it's worse on the equipment note, but not really "bad", but certainly not as good. The best equipment is found in America, where you have huge hospitals that can afford spending on the pioneering stuff. We're a bit too small so some of the newest things can't be afforded here. And no, this isn't because anyone's "too greedy" or whatever.

Taxes ARE a bitch. People with the lowest wage pay a total of 57% tax on their salary.

It's not hard to get into the +65%.

Taxes obviously do not decrease inequality and inequality isnt necessarily bad

http://www.johannorberg.net/?page=displayblog&month=8&year=2006#1827

"How the Welfare State Corrupted Sweden"

http://mises.org/story/2190

[ProfMonnitoff]

I live in Austria, and while I have private medical/health insurance, I hear from just about everybody that our public medical system is very good. In terms of drugs I'd say we're on the same level as just about every other developed country. Some of the over the counter stuff isn't as easy to get, but I'd say that's a good thing.

Our taxes are progressive and yes the highest bracket is pretty fucking high (50%). Still I'd say the system is better than the American one, especially for the working/lower/middle class.

[MilSpex]

I'd say the system is better than the American one, especially for the working/lower/middle class.

How can you say that when you`re paying for your own health insurance AND a whole bunch of other peoples coz they dont work as hard/aren`t as talented as you? If you lived in America you would have a whole lot more money in your pocket after tax, you would still pay for your private insurance and I would bet it would be of a higher standard than in Austria aswell.

[Double D]

Presently we have to pay about $13 of your dollars for all and any prescriptions, for anything from 4 months worth of the contraceptive pill to 6 months worth of Prozac. Asides from that, it's 100% free for your run-of-the-mill stuff.

However, it must be noted that a) if you have the money and any amount of sense, you have private healthcare in the UK, and our healthcare will in the near future become semi-privatised in some areas.

[Bona Drag]

is it me, or is this a political discussion?

[polishmike]

It's you, you should get yourself checked out by a private doctor

[Bona Drag]

good idea, b/c it also burns when i pee

in communist cuba, disease sexually transmits you!