Just Saw Michael Moore's "Sicko"

[alterion]

However, it must be noted that a) if you have the money and any amount of sense, you have private healthcare in the UK, and our healthcare will in the near future become semi-privatised in some areas.

yes but no, many of the well off do have private healthcare in the UK and while they undoubtedly recive a higher quality service for 90% of thier problems i would argue that there is nothing essentially wonrg with the equivalent NHS care they could recieve in terms of medical quality. So your right but its the same reason we buy jeans from sugarcane instead of gap not beacuse the gap jeans are somehow flawed but because we want the slevage and attention to detail.

And for the other 10% of cases the private secotor is simply not adbvanced enough to deal with quadrupal heart bypasses and the lieke and so these are ultimately done in NHS facilities.

How can you say that when you`re paying for your own health insurance AND a whole bunch of other peoples coz they dont work as hard/aren`t as talented as you? If you lived in America you would have a whole lot more money in your pocket after tax, you would still pay for your private insurance and I would bet it would be of a higher standard than in Austria aswell.

Again yes and no, This is essentially a political debate and both viewpoints have both moral and pratical points. But put simply I would contend our healthcare system of "free at the point of use" provides a better standard of essential healthcare (albiet without many mod-cons) for a greater majority of the population than a privatised system.

Ultimatley that saves lives and is something i support galdley. Its not perfect but its better than a privatised system imho. Generally it seems people agree with me. If any party decided to promote a privatised healthcare scheme they would effectivly commit suicide overnight.

[ProfMonnitoff]

How can you say that when you`re paying for your own health insurance AND a whole bunch of other peoples coz they dont work as hard/aren`t as talented as you? If you lived in America you would have a whole lot more money in your pocket after tax, you would still pay for your private insurance and I would bet it would be of a higher standard than in Austria aswell.

While I hate to get into a debate about class separation, let's just say that with the exception of a few people who intentionally disable the system, everybody should have the right for decent healthcare.

As for the standards of private healthcare, while I don't know just how good it is in America, it could hardly be better in Austria. I got through a meningitis (had about 3 hours to live when I arrived at the hospital), spending about a month in a private room with 24/7 service, and just about anything else I could think about. I have never had to wait in line for any of the routine stuff either.

I am aware that I would have more money if my country had the same system as America, but I'm willing to pay the extra money for living in a country that is governed closer to my political ideals.

[polishmike]

While I hate to get into a debate about class separation, let's just say that with the exception of a few people who intentionally disable the system, everybody should have the right for decent healthcare.

Everyone should pay for what they use, I don't see how healthcare is different than any other resource.

I'm glad you live in the country close to your political ideas, I wish Michael Moore would move there.

[headcoat]

Just pick up some used medical textbooks and a set of surgeon's tools. I cut my own hair, tailor my own clothes, fix my own car..now I will do my own surgery.

[isoform]

Medical health care for serious things is so unaffordable and this is why we need health insurance in the first place. It's like paying an installment plan for sickness or injury that may or may not happen (but it probably will--and when it does the actual cost of saving a life can be hundreds of thousands of dollars--if not millions depending on severity or if its chronic and length of stay in Intensive Care). Like one guy said before he pays 6000/yr for insurance even though he ain't sick. And what's funnier is that it's really, really hard to get insured when you are sick.

Be sure, there is government paid medical health care for some Americans--the elderly who paid into social security and some people with disabilities--and it's contracted out to the private sector.

N'ah... there should be a solid bass line. People who can afford better shouldn't be chided or guilt tripped for having money to pay for private insurance and health care, but there really should be a solid bass of health care available to tax payers.

[whitney]

Insurance is just fcuking confusing in america.

Right now the hope is that if the government takes over and buys insurance for the general public the HOPE is that they would have the insurance companies competing for their business and therefore the price would not be so outrageous. Assuming that it wouldn't be all private sectors so there will be competition.

Right now California is looking at a state wide health care policy where if you aren't at or below the poverty level (federal level) you would be obligated to buy insurance at the rates the government pays gets for you.

A prototype of a typical plan that the governor is thinking of is about 200$ monthly payment (premium) and about 2000$ deductable (amount paid out of pocket before insurance kicks in and of course this renews every year)

They haven't worked out the kinks yet and I doubt they'd get it worked out within the next two years. But who knows.

I just love hearing stories about how pharm rep takes doctors out to ten course meals and such. Of course they don't do that anymore. Just gives them prizes everytime they sell X amount of X.

[polishmike]

Right now the hope is that if the government takes over and buys insurance for the general public the HOPE is that they would have the insurance companies competing for their business and therefore the price would not be so outrageous. Assuming that it wouldn't be all private sectors so there will be competition.

This makes no sense at all. Medicare sucks and the only way to drive the insurance cost down is to open the market and not regulate it more. Government controlled resources are always priced higher than resources that are open to the competition of free market.

[whitney]

No, I am not talking about medicare

I am talking about blue shield or kaiser...I think blue shield is one of the contenders...setting up plans that the government would then require the citizens to pay for unless your below poverty level

Then they'd kick in the payments for you

Or if you're already insured, you're not affected.

I don't know what will happen with medicare but I'm assuming it will be terminated or phased out.

There's push for universal health care coverage but like I said right now insurance itself is complicated, I doubt you'd see it soon but probably within the next five years

[polishmike]

So basically it's the same system. Everyone has to pay and you have to pay for someone else if they can't pay for themselves. Same shit different name.

[Double D]

In Australia if you earn just a little over minimum wage you have to start subsidising the poor and unemployed`s health cover by paying a Medicare levy. So because you went out and got a decent job and did something with your life now you somehow owe the people that didnt. Its bullshit. Gimme America, low taxes and user pays health insurance anyday. America also has the most affordable and best healthcare and drugs on earth.

Coming from a raving libertarian myself, that's not a particularly good argument. In fact, not so much a pro-libertarian argument as a pro-greed argument.

You could instead point out the fact that the distinctions between social liberty and freedom of enterprise are a social construct, and that philosophically if you support social liberalism you should be default support economic liberalism.

Expanding on that, you could use the classic libertarian argument that the perceived "right to healthcare" is overridden by the more important observation that the government ultimately lacks the right to redistribute wealth, and that it takes some pretty supreme arrogance on the part of the not-so-liberal left wing to argue otherwise.

[alterion]

So basically it's the same system. Everyone has to pay and you have to pay for someone else if they can't pay for themselves. Same shit different name.

Yes ultimatley it comes down to a political veiwpoint. America has chosen one view. The rest of the world has chosen another. I've made my views on which sytem is working better but It's up to you to decide which is more morally correct. I'd love to argue with you about it but that would definatley be politics and not allowed.

[chronoaug]

Yea, this thread is dangerously close to the "minya locking it and everyone get getting upset and creating a couple threads about it" stage. It's a good read though, i just worry about the direction it'll probably take in the next day as a lot of this comes down to opinions on political systems as there really isn't one perfect way for all different political and economical societies.

[Brienneoftarth]

What I don't understand Is why there cant be some middle ground between the US system (where I am) and the others, I mean, I believe capitalism does create an environment where the best options are available, but the problem with the US is that when the Government takes over things, it does not adopt any of the basic tenents of capitolism. If we had universal healthcare here, I think all we'd have to do is pay doctors huge salaries and the best doctors would be attracted to the industry, eliminating some of the qaulity of care problems some of the European/Canadian posters have discussed. The government has enough money to pay every doctor 400K a year and then rather than invest the trillions we do in the military (which often leads to financial interests in the priate sector where military technology(the internet) creates new markets) we could invest it in the healthcare. It's just interesting that we invest so much money and find ways to make money off of killing people but we cant figure out a way to make money off of saving lives. Kinda how any retard off the street can join the army but it's near impossible to join the peace corps. Who knows.....

[Sayword]

Very great post in this topic

pm me for the movie

[Sayword]

Thanks Horriblyjollyjinx, very informative

[Sayword]

If you lived in America you would have a whole lot more money in your pocket after tax, you would still pay for your private insurance and I would bet it would be of a higher standard than in Austria aswell.

Insurance is a bitch though. It's easy to get turned down, and once you got it, they try their best to make sure they don't have to pay for anything. Medical bills are retardedly high. And us haveing lower taxes is a an overstatement.

[airportlobbytx]

In the US, we are already bearing the costs of unisured sick people - who do you think is paying for unpaid hospital bills, missed word days, untreated contagious diseases getting spread in schools and workplaced, children who are permanently stunted by childhood illnesses, untreated addictions, mental health problems... we all already pay. It would be more cost effective to offer some basic level of health coverage the needy.

And it isn't as if free-market capitalism provides all that we need. Sometimes we decide that the goverment has to correct a market occurrence. A friend of mine, a self-employed lawyer, had hodgkins disease. She can't purchase insurance because she is high risk. Is this an equitable situation? Should she have to pay out of pocket to see a doctor when she has a flue? We have made the decision that the state should provide education to all - and it has resulted in more education per buck. The same could be done in health care, and eventually, I think it will be done.

[andewhall]

I have had a bit of experience with the public health system recently...here in New Zealand. Public health is free...but at what cost I often wonder. People are on waiting lists for years and not long ago the list were so full that everyone just got bumped off, and it all started again. So there is basically thousands of people out there relying on the public health system to fix em' up....waiting in pain for years.

Also in the last few years there has been nurse's union strikes and doctors strikes because they are overworked and underpayed. Medicine is heavily government subsidised for some, a 50 buck prescription may cost only 3 bucks if you have some health card.

I need a nose job from playing rugby, fighting...just an all round fucked up nose. I waited 6 months to get an appointment, it lasted about 10 minutes. I was blown away by the state of the place, sure they probably had all the good equipment, but it felt like I was in a decayed 70,s time warp. It was weird. Still waiting for the op, its been 2 years.

So yeah health care in NZ is free....but its shit for non urgent stuff. My step old man was feeling really bad one day so dropped into the local doctor, (he's a boozer, heavy smoker, late 50's) the Doc checked him out and called an ambulance immediately. 12 hours later he was having a tripple bypass. Apparently if he hadn't gone to hospital in an ambulance, he would have been on the waiting list? So yeah he got free open heart surgery, quickly....but by a stroke of luck that the local doctor new what was up with the system.

[MilSpex]

I live in Austria, and while I have private medical/health insurance, I hear from just about everybody that our public medical system is very good. In terms of drugs I'd say we're on the same level as just about every other developed country. Some of the over the counter stuff isn't as easy to get, but I'd say that's a good thing.

Our taxes are progressive and yes the highest bracket is pretty fucking high (50%). Still I'd say the system is better than the American one, especially for the working/lower/middle class.

Yeah if you want to pay for yours and other people`s insurance through your tax good for you. Personally I dont because anyone thats earning just a little more than minimum wage should be able to afford their own private health insurance. And people on disability/unable to work are paid for through the normal tax system in Australia anyway. The extra levy Australians pay is purely for fuck ups.

But America has the best medical technology on earth, the best dentists (ever seen American teeth?) and the best specialists.

Ever notice all those kids worldwide that have to go to America to get lifesaving surgery?

[MilSpex]

I have had a bit of experience with the public health system recently...here in New Zealand. Public health is free...but at what cost I often wonder. People are on waiting lists for years and not long ago the list were so full that everyone just got bumped off, and it all started again. So there is basically thousands of people out there relying on the public health system to fix em' up....waiting in pain for years.

Yep, you let the government run just about anything except defence and law and order and they fuck it up. Government = inefficiency.

[bph]

Yeah if you want to pay for yours and other people`s insurance through your tax good for you. Personally I dont because anyone thats earning just a little more than minimum wage should be able to afford their own private health insurance.

Absolute nonsense. Even the most minor necessary surgical procedures can cost upwards of $10,000 here in the US. Have fun trying to pay for that when you're making $20,000 a year. And "working hard" or "having talent" is completely beside the point. Many types of jobs, including most creative-type jobs, freelance, etc., simply do not provide insurance, and purchasing it for yourself is far more expensive than would be the case if it was built into your taxes.

[Egpt]

My BF

i stopped reading here

[Egpt]

i think the posts about european countries pretty much describe the situation in portugal too.

really cheap healthcare, but really long waiting lists for non-urgent surgeries and for regular appointments.

also, state workers gets lots of benefits over private workers.

my sister is a doctor though, so i don't really have the problem of waiting for appointments or surgeries if i needed one in public hospitals.

[kwiteaboy]

I'd take a small dip in quality of treatment if it meant I could actually afford to go to urgent care.

Two things: first, urgent care IS free as prescribed by EMTALA. This presents a problem when a person gets injured, can't pay, goes to the ED and is worked up by a physician (who doesn't get paid for his or her work but is legally required to provide care), goes home, there's a complication because medical care isn't perfect, and then sues the physician and hospital for malpractice in the free medical care, resulting in a fat settlement for the patient.

Second, with malpractice the way it is in America currently, there can be no small dips in quality of treatment. Americans expect zero-defect health care, and many expect it to be free. Zero-defect anything isn't cheap, and really can't be free. So if we end up with a single-payer system, expect huge waits for most things (ever been to an ED with a huge waiting time and everyone sitting around on plastic chairs? ALL care will be like that) and lower quality.

EDIT: I should add that if you want to see an in-depth and rational set of arguments against single-payer systems, visit www.pandabearmd.com. It's written by a third-year EM resident with a lot of sense.

[josephr]

Yep, you let the government run just about anything except defence and law and order and they fuck it up. Government = inefficiency.

except defence and law and order? i think the government fuck that up too.

i might agree with those who are into the whole private health care thing, but i have a medical condition that prevents me from buying private insurance. no one will insure me so i have to work for a company that provides group insurance. in what way is that not fucked

[MilSpex]

except defence and law and order? i think the government fuck that up too.

Well as for the US, its army is undefeatable on the ground, has the best training weapons and equipment on Earth and hasnt lost one battle in Iraq or Afghanistan. And btw they took over an entire country and toppled its leader in 3 weeks with a numerically inferior force. Dont confuse defence with foreign policy.

Law and order? Crime rates in the US have been going down for 20 years thanks to more cops and bigger prisons.

[mr fluffernutter]

Crime rates in the US have been going down for 20 years thanks to more cops and bigger prisons.

thats no way to lower crime...

you need to stop it at the source, children. kill all children, or brainwash them into be nice people. something like that.

i have no quarrel with free healthcare, as it's not free, i pay for it in taxes. what is free healthcare...? whoooo im tired....

[Servo2000]

thats no way to lower crime...

you need to stop it at the source, children. kill all children, or brainwash them into be nice people. something like that.

i have no quarrel with free healthcare, as it's not free, i pay for it in taxes. what is free healthcare...? whoooo im tired....

The funny thing about this post is that it's been argued that one of the main reasons for the decrease in crime in the United States in the past two decades or so is the legalization of abortion . So yes, killing "the children" is helping.

[Double D]

US crime rates and the nation's approach to solving those crime rates are a perfect example of targeting the effect rather than the cause.

Rather than targeting poor education in inner-city areas, prohibitive drug laws and lack of treatment/rehab for addicts compared to a nation such as the UK, insane gun culture (I'm not saying ban them, as Milspex would rightly point out that the weapons used in gun crime are stolen/black market anyhow) they pump US taxpayers money into locking every 'deviant' who fell through the cracks and spending more money on them per year to keep them locked up than if they were all provided a living standard in welfare.

[Double D]

I have had a bit of experience with the public health system recently...here in New Zealand. Public health is free...but at what cost I often wonder. People are on waiting lists for years and not long ago the list were so full that everyone just got bumped off, and it all started again. So there is basically thousands of people out there relying on the public health system to fix em' up....waiting in pain for years.

Also in the last few years there has been nurse's union strikes and doctors strikes because they are overworked and underpayed. Medicine is heavily government subsidised for some, a 50 buck prescription may cost only 3 bucks if you have some health card.

Sounds like a royal fucking mess, especially as NZ is supposedly one of the most reformed modern economies in the world.

Waiting lists over here pretty much don't exist anymore. All we did was double the health budget over ten years and import thousands of cheap degree holding doctors from the Indian subcontinent every year.