45rpm Jomon Post on AskAndy

[partytaco]

Here is something i came across while looking at the askandy forum. funny and i don't think the poster understands that what 45rpm is going for ISN'T the latest and greatest production methods for making their denim but rather a vintage aesthetic which is why they use sewing machines from the earlier half of the last century.

April 15th, 2007, 08:54

Alexander Kabbaz

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Join Date: January 8th, 2004

Location: NYC & East Hampton

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Knowing in advance that this review is going to get my butt kicked all over S&D, I considered for more than a week whether I would even write it at all. I realize that there are many properties of denim that streetwear afficionados prize and in that department, I can see why R for 45RPM's Jomon denim exceeds all expectations. The carefully considered criticisms which follow are not meant to dispute the extreme quality of Jomon fabric.

But there is a great deal more to creating a superb garment ... and one selling for $817. at Manhattan retail price ... than merely using the best fabric. As someone who has been creating and sewing what are considered better quality clothes for more than a quarter century, I was ... well ... simply appalled.

The actual stitching of the Jomon jeans was better than most. Nonetheless, selling for more than a top-flight shirt with fewer than 1/3 of the stitching, one would expect nothing less than close-to-perfect workmanship. Tradition aside, chainstitched seams don't hold a candle to lockstitched ones, for chainstitches unravel whereas lockstitches do not. Appearance you might claim ... but the exterior appearance of a lockstitch is the same as that of a chainstitch. It is merely a matter of longevity and strength which makes the lockstitch a better choice.

Frankly, though, that would not have been so consequential to me if it were not for the lack of what the garment industry terms "cleaning". And in that department, the R for 45RPM Jomon jeans were a failure. Today's super-speed sewing machines have what are called "underbed thread trimmers". These small knives automatically cut the thread at the end of a seam to speed up the sewing. To insure that the fabric is not damaged by the cutting knife it cuts leaving a "thread tail" on the garment roughly 1/8"-3/16" long. Similarly for buttonholes, when these are cut there is a bit of space between the knife and the thread which constitutes the buttonhole.

Better manufacturers then have an end-of-the-line person who, using a small pair of special scissors, trims all of these thread tails so the end of every seam is neatly finished. Additionally, that person also trims the loose threads from the insides of the buttonholes where they were cut by the automatic knife. In absolutely NO instance on the Jomon jeans was this done. The buttonholes were atrocious and virtually every seam had obvious thread tails ... made even more obvious by the contrasting red/gold/orange jeans thread color. As an example of the cost of quality, the person who does this on a shirt requires between 30-45 minutes to accomplish the task. When you are charging $800+ for a garment, this step is not an optional one.

Additionally, there were the untrimmed raw edges on the insides of the patch (rear) pockets. These pockets are attached by turning under the fabric edge and sewing them atop the denim. A better maker would either overcast these hidden raw edges with what is called an overlock (or serge) stitch to prevent the cloth from unravelling ... or at least cut them with pinking shears to accomplish a similar goal. This was not done and a plethora of loose threads were hanging out of the rear pockets.

Finally, there was the retail presentation. Yes, it makes perfect sense to me that denim lovers want to dip, wash, shrink, stretch, and shape their jeans at the beginning of the aging process. And I do certainly understand that better denims allow for a wide latitude in this area. But none of those considerations justify dumping an $800 garment on the counter completely creased, wrinkled, and virtually rolled up into a ball. If ironing is mistreatment of the denim, so be it. That does not prevent the maker from drying their prewashed jeans by laying them flat on a table rather than permitting them to dry in this jumbled state and calling it, as I was told, "character".

Insofar as the common elements of the offering of top-quality sewn products, I think I have earned the right to criticize sloppy workmanship. I apologise in advance for my dearth of streetwear knowledge if my review violates any "customs" associated with expensive jeans.

__________________

[denimdestroyedmylife]

the twin thread on styleforum is legendary

ringring... er... rings in, along with geowu, and other denim luminaries

the steez at its best

[cheep]

yeah... and remember that the OP is a high end shirt maker... i think his shirts are at the same pricepoint as the jeans hes reviewing.

[tweeds]

yes...that's something i was keeping in mind when the thread first came out. quite a clash of view points there--a shirtmaker with his formal dress background, versus a jeansmaker, with all that workwear heritage behind it.

[viv1984viv]

Wow, thats a great read. I love tangerines cheeky post pointing out the value of canes! Thanks partytaco. Yeah, its a terrible clash of people with opposing paradigms on clothes construction/qualities/values.

[son2silver]

ddml, thanks for the link to the debate on steez. Great stuff.

[lowrider]

Very interesting. Mahalos.

[Vitamian]

While that shirtmaker makes a fine shirt, the personality is nothing to be proud of.

He is known as "Pagliacci" to other shirtmakers and is petulant and frankly, rather dull intellectually.

[lowrider]

While that shirtmaker makes a fine shirt, the personality is nothing to be proud of.

He is known as "Pagliacci" to other shirtmakers and is petulant and frankly, rather dull intellectually.

I didn't know what "Pagliacci" was so I had to search Wikipedia. For those who want to know what it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagliacci

[tweeds]

While that shirtmaker makes a fine shirt, the personality is nothing to be proud of.

He is known as "Pagliacci" to other shirtmakers and is petulant and frankly, rather dull intellectually.

that's a very strong way of putting it...i guess he must be really something then

do you know of anyone with bad experiences with his store?

[Vitamian]

I didn't know what "Pagliacci" was so I had to search Wikipedia. For those who want to know what it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagliacci

Indeed, the Clown.

that's a very strong way of putting it...i guess he must be really something then

do you know of anyone with bad experiences with his store?

It has less to do with his store and services than his business practices.

For one thing, he advertises heavily for underwear on the Andy site which is vulgar in and of itself. Also, he claims to be extremely busy producing bespoke shirts yet has the time to monitor the forum like some form of a dictator, and ban people.

Also, his attempts at things like logic and rhetoric are at best, humiliating exercises best suited for a high-school debate course.

His little posse at Andy are bullies, embarrassing themselves with self-crowned titles like "Honors Members" while steadfastly holding onto their "gentelmanly ways".

The most amusing aspect is when they type "Now, we're all gentlemen here..." like a bunch of people at a costume party in ill-fitting tuxedoes and inane monocles.

[LA Guy]

Alex is not that bad. He tends to have a temper, and this leads him to do rather ill considered things, but he is not a terrible guy, all things considered. Vitamian, I don't think that you have much firsthand information about Alex, and your sources are rather biased. You'd probably do well to read what they write about Alex with a lot of skepticism.

Edit (addition)

In any case, I really don't see the point in slinging mud at Ask Andy's or its moderators in Superfuture. It doesn't really accomplish anything; and the mudslinger comes off as petty.

[wild_whiskey]

That was a great thread.

His little posse at Andy are bullies, embarrassing themselves with self-crowned titles like "Honors Members" while steadfastly holding onto their "gentelmanly ways".

And it would be best if the other little posses who offer nothing in the way of conversation aside from inane potshots from what they consider to be safe-zones didn't expand there territory and degrade the value of yet another forum.

[Vitamian]

Fair enough; I don't know Mr.Kabbaz on a personal, or even second-hand basis; but from a purely spectator point of view there are many things that he has done that merits a form of criticism.

While I'm sure the man can be nice and friendly, some of those qualities are diluted by an unrepentant vulgarity--especially in business practices--and his rather constant temper tantrums. As well, his attempts at economic theory (look at that ill-considered AAAC Marketplace fee) and the humanities are better left unearthed.

[tweeds]

let's try to keep this civil, shall we...critiquing other forums and their moderators is not a good idea.

back to the topic: i like that post where ringring chimes in with a point by point reply to Alexander's post. great reading.

[indigo_junkie]

Anything ringring posts is gold. It was his posts on styleforum that got me hooked on selvage denim in the first place.

[Vitamian]

That was a great thread.

And it would be best if the other little posses who offer nothing in the way of conversation aside from inane potshots from what they consider to be safe-zones didn't expand there territory and degrade the value of yet another forum.

In all fairness, I would hardly call the other forum a one-piece conversation pit. It was the only forum that offered a lengthy criticism of "The Suit" when all others simply accepted it as what it was.

It is the forum where numerous people posted pictures of their bespoke commissions as well as where Bernhard Roetzel is a participating member. It is also where conversations can stem from the Little Richard to Borrelli shirts to Nazi esthetics.

Beyond the fact that other "esteemed" members are also members there: iammatt, edmorel, get smart, Will, et al.

If the aforementioned posses deigned to confess that they visited the forum, it would be a remarkable day--for they do visit it.

[synthi]

back to the topic: i like that post where ringring chimes in with a point by point reply to Alexander's post. great reading.

So true. Way back when I was intruigued by Jomons, I did a search here and at SF and that thread came up. I spent an entire evening reading it. It was nice that people didn't react defensively and that let a meaningful debate flow. I really wish sometimes that ringring would write a book. And start to post again

[beefcake]

let's try to keep this civil, shall we...critiquing other forums and their moderators is not a good idea.

yes, we're all gentlemen here...

[Pandemonium]

yes, we're all gentlemen here...

or rather genteelmen.

[tweeds]

yes, we're all gentlemen here...

cmf's an ape though...we might have to loosen our definition of men a bit

It was nice that people didn't react defensively and that let a meaningful debate flow. I really wish sometimes that ringring would write a book. And start to post again

the former might have to happen before the latter two could take place, perhaps...

[coleslawyum]

But I just didn't know where to post this. I have to say that I tried on a bunch of jomons about 2 years ago, and I don't remember the fabric being this nice. (could that the photos are well lit) I mean I've been riding 45rpm's jock since I visited the store in Osaka 5 years ago, but I'm ready to be their drooling bitch again after seeing these photos.

Maybe I've been in the dark, or this is old news, but shit, these jeans are bananas.

[scoon0224]

The raw pics look totally different from the one-wash on their site huh.

I was curious about those myself, since they most likely run their things through a hot wash and dry, I'm curious if the color is really affected THAT much.

[PG2G]

Yeah, the raw ones are insane. 45rpm must beat the shit out of their jeans. I'll probably go the raw route if I can ever afford Jomons. Look like an entirely different jean.

[the black arm]

Originally Posted by synthi

It was nice that people didn't react defensively and that let a meaningful debate flow. I really wish sometimes that ringring would write a book. And start to post again

the former might have to happen before the latter two could take place, perhaps...

very true . . .

[beatle]

So not matter how you see it - I am happy for once that these are not my price range anyway....

But - more posts like this - and maybe I can snatch a pair when they go on sale....in Japan...for $ 290...Lol....

[mr fluffernutter]

they didn't even overlock this raw edge.... cheap!

[partytaco]

MIGHT just be the lighting, the camera or/and the photographer.

Yeah, the raw ones are insane. 45rpm must beat the shit out of their jeans. I'll probably go the raw route if I can ever afford Jomons. Look like an entirely different jean.

[john11f]

these jomons are really nice! i'm going raw if ever i snap one...

[Tarmac]

Kabbaz is the fucking man. btw. He's been making shirts longer than most sufus have been breathing