Uber-High Fashion - Please Debate

[englandmj7]

Be forewarned..........long rant.

Looking at Red's thread on Stylezeitgeist got me thinking.

There may have been some discussion on this, or a related post in the past, but I can't find it. I also debated whether to put this in Superfashion........because who the hell reads that?

I would really love for some of you guys who have alot of experience with 'super high-end stuff' to give your input.

Basically:

The appeal of brands like Margiela, Yohji, Ann D., CC Poell, etc. is really beyond me. Sure, I have seen some AWESOME pieces by these brands, and I would definitely buy some of their stuff on heavy discount, but how in the world can people pay $220 for a plain white Martin Margiela t-shirt?

Is all of this stuff 100% handmade? Is it really that much better 'quality' that it is worth what it retails for? Do you buy it mostly to support the designer and their 'art'? Don't you think the markups that these brands charge are absurd?

I, too, am a bit of a lush, and am more than happy to shell out up to $500 for an amazing pair of shoes (after all, ALOT of work goes into shoes, and it takes alot of attention to detail to make a 'quality' pair), and a couple hundred bucks for a very nice handmade dress shirt. Still, there are hundreds of brands who make items that really don't justify the price they are charging. When I see a Raf Simons plain cashmere cardigan retailing for $1500 it just makes me sick. I know what cashmere costs, and it sure as hell isn't $1500 a yard.

I am reminded of a picture in Stylezeitgeist's WAYWT of a woman wearing an entire outfit of current season Ann D. stuff who truly looked worse than 90% of females I see on a daily basis (difference is, she paid over $4000 for her outfit). Blows my mind. Yet, she got tons of compliments? No one in their right mind would have complimented her if she had the EXACT same outfit, but the tag said Target (which by the look of it, was very feasible). In this instance, the quality is of minimal importance; there are only a handful of ways you can make a thin cardigan and an even thinner dress, none of which will guarantee you a lifetime of use.

If I was making 7 figures a year, I probably still would be saying: "Shit, I make tons of money, and can afford this $850 pair of cargo pants, but I didn't start making 7 figures a year by getting ripped off by some jackass with a sewing machine and a fashion school degree.............." Fact is though, 99% of guys buying this type of stuff aren't even making 80K a year, yet they buy this stuff. Rich bankers buy $5K Kiton suits and $475 Borrelli shirts because this in some ways, aids their cause; who the hell needs some $1000 Junya Watanabe baggy sweatpants?

I know that some might argue that the items from these brands are luxuries just like fine watches, wines, and art; or that I only hate them because I can't afford them, he heh. Truth is though, that most expensive art has a history/story and can hang on your walls for admiration for hundreds of years. Watches can be worn through your life and handed down to children and grandchildren, never missing a tick. What are you gonna do with your $350 Yohji tank top in a few years?

I am not so much criticizing those who do this, but rather, would like to be educated on your ideology. Please, chime in.

[lil brown brother]

well said emj..... i too would like to know why

[fndmybetterhalf]

agreed. i think there are certain things that i can justify myself spending more $$$ on...such as shoes, jeans, jackets...but i keep it very minimal with everything else. undershirts from Target, tshirts from AA, etc etc. I would never be able to justify myself buying a tshirt that costs 200$ unless it had something extraordinary about it which i have yet to see... :/

[sidneylo]

[polishmike]

I think the bottom line is whether to you they are worth the money. I have a friend who almost only wears Raf Simons and Dries Van Noten. He's wealthy and doesn't care about the price. He just walks into Barneys and buys whatever he likes. It just ends up being both of these brands because of his personal preference. He can also pull them off very well and all of the pieces look great on him.

I like some of his Raf sweaters and I would buy them for lets say $200. But since they are double that I just feel like they aren't worth that kind of money to me. So if I would have unlimited funds I would also buy whatever I like at Barneys but since that's not the case I go to Uniqlo and at the end I'm pretty satisfied with my $40 sweater.

[Platypus]

I can't really argue about the t-shirts, but there are a few reasons why I like these "avant garde" brands.

I buy/have a very small wardrobe. I add items very rarely and when I do, I want them to be stuff that I love and much of what I love is from those aformentioned brands. I have to say that prices are insane, but I have never bought at retail, always on sale (the people on SZ who bought the new 5 grand CCP leather jacket can clearly afford it and thus I can't fault that). An anecdote: My friend criticizes me sometimes about liking/buying this type of clothing yet I have never spent as much on a Cloak sweater as he does on Lacoste pullovers. You can find good value (as you see it) can be found anywhere.

Also, the woman whose posts you are refering to is not that great in my opinion, but find Laika's posts on SZ...I think she looks fantastic and unique in a good way in the designer stuff she has.

[mike lowrey]

I understand many of your points.

in very rare cases the justification for very expensive stuff is actually quality. yes it's often there, but there are limits to how good something can be in terms of quality and when were talking about a $300 t-shirt or a $500 dress shirt those limits have often been passed.

I personally like a lot of stuff put out by the designers you mentioned, but most of the time I find them too expensive, so I cant really think of justifications for the most extreme examples. however I can admit that I have some stuff that you'd probably classify into this mentioned bunch, so I'll try to explain what possible justifications for me would be.

I think my worst example would be a $350 ann demeulemeester knit sweater I recently bought. what I liked about it was the semi-sheer loose knit I havent seen on many sweaters and the lengthy fit and bunching sleeves. you could of course find a v-neck sweater for $30 and a good quality knit one for under $100. however the details I mentioned make the difference for me. this of course wouldn't make it worth it for many people but if I happen to have the cash to spend, I dont mind doing so.

when we talk about the more extreme cases, for example $2000 jackets or $400 belts or whatever, I really think its more status than anything. it feels cool to own something like that, to some its personal and to others its something to show around. I saw some $400 ccp leather belts in paris, sure they looked really nice, but in all honesty they're jsut not worth that in any possible way except for the brand. you can find a quite similar looking for under $100, but its of course not ccp. This I have a really hard time understanding.

[englandmj7]

I think the bottom line is whether to you they are worth the money. I have a friend who almost only wears Raf Simons and Dries Van Noten. He's wealthy and doesn't care about the price. He just walks into Barneys and buys whatever he likes. It just ends up being both of these brands because of his personal preference. He can also pull them off very well and all of the pieces look great on him.

I like some of his Raf sweaters and I would buy them for lets say $200. But since they are double that I just feel like they aren't worth that kind of money to me. So if I would have unlimited funds I would also buy whatever I like at Barneys but since that's not the case I go to Uniqlo and at the end I'm pretty satisfied with my $40 sweater.

I have a friend like this as well. Very wealthy (from his parents of course), buys anything he wants. Difference is though, had he been very rich, but it was his own money, I think things would be very different.

I am not disputing that these brand make some fine pieces of clothing by any means, but the fact of the matter is, for half of the items they churn out, something comparable can found for half the price. That's what I don't get, it is like people don't care to look; and I KNOW most of them don't have the luxury of not having to look for a better price.You are truly an idiot if you spend $300 a plain black Rick Owens v-neck when you could get 20 at AA for that price; doesn't matter how rich you are.

Great points Lowrey and Platypus; thanks for the input.

I own several Cloak pieces, an Ann D. shirt, some Margiela accessories, etc. but the difference is that I paid 25% of the original prices for them. I don't have any problem with people being into this stuff; I scour e-bay for good deals on high-fashion brands all the time. It is mostly direceted towards those paying full retail for items like this, and why they feel they are worth it.

Lowrey, the example of the $300 sweater is perfect. If it is EXACTLY what you want, then of course you should go for it; and hell $300 isn't that bad anyways. Even Ralph Lauren charges $300 for some of their sweaters. Alot of the people that are into this stuff, however, aren't content with that one perfect Ann D. sweater, they want the whole current season just because it's "OMG ANN D!!!".......that's what I don't understand.

[Tiranis]

The appeal of brands like Margiela, Yohji, Ann D., CC Poell, etc. is really beyond me. Sure, I have seen some AWESOME pieces by these brands, and I would definitely buy some of their stuff on heavy discount, but how in the world can people pay $220 for a plain white Martin Margiela t-shirt?

I wouldn't, but I would buy a nice t-shirt from Raf or Yohji on sale... and the fact is A LOT of those items stick around for the sales. It's not that I can't pay the full price, I just think those pieces are only worth their sale price (usually around $100)... buy at full if you want though, I won't hate you for it.

Is all of this stuff 100% handmade? Is it really that much better 'quality' that it is worth what it retails for? Do you buy it mostly to support the designer and their 'art'? Don't you think the markups that these brands charge are absurd?

Depending on the brand... but no, most of them are not. You're paying for the design, exclusivity, plus tons of other shit. There are brands, like LUC, which make stuff that's extremely well made... but most high end brands have slightly above average construction.

When I see a Raf Simons plain cashmere cardigan retailing for $1500 it just makes me sick. I know what cashmere costs, and it sure as hell isn't $1500 a yard.

Well, if you have the money why not... I don't buy stuff this expensive though, even though I have the money I have to work for it. Some people have rich parents, some people have different priorities, and some want to feel exclusive.

I am reminded of a picture in Stylezeitgeist's WAYWT of a woman wearing an entire outfit of current season Ann D. stuff who truly looked worse than 90% of females I see on a daily basis (difference is, she paid over $4000 for her outfit). Blows my mind. Yet, she got tons of compliments? No one in their right mind would have complimented her if she had the EXACT same outfit, but the tag said Target (which by the look of it, was very feasible).

You better not be talking about Anastasia whose outfit looks absolutely amazing. I didn't even read her post at first, so it definitely has nothing to do with the brands for me. I just think it all works and the items are mostly quite unique.

If I was making 7 figures a year, I probably still would be saying: "Shit, I make tons of money, and can afford this $850 pair of cargo pants, but I didn't start making 7 figures a year by getting ripped off by some jackass with a sewing machine and a fashion school degree.............." Fact is though, 99% of guys buying this type of stuff aren't even making 80K a year, yet they buy this stuff. Rich bankers buy $5K Kiton suits and $475 Borrelli shirts because this in some ways, aids their cause; who the hell needs some $1000 Junya Watanabe baggy sweatpants?

This is where I partly agree, it is a little ridiculous. As in I wouldn't pay that much for the item, but that doesn't meant somebody else shouldn't. And to be fair, how do you know how much they make? For that matter, do you know how much I make? ... Didn't think so. Some people have rich parents and some just have different priorities. Someone wants to have nice apartment, someone wants to look good. What's so bad about that?

What are you gonna do with your $350 Yohji tank top in a few years?

I payed $70 for mine, does that still count as too much? I suppose it does, but as I said, sale is where it's at. As to why I bought it -- it's the only tank top that looks good on me.

At the end, I fail to see the point of most of your rambling, as a person shopping at Target could say this about anyone who buys even slightly more expensive stuff. If I want to buy clothing for $5000 I'm going to do it and you're not the one to decide whether it looks good or not. And trust me, people who blow that much cash on clothes couldn't care less if you can tell how much it costs or not.

I know I don't care if anybody knows what I wear.

And my own rant on this:

but I didn't start making 7 figures a year by getting ripped off by some jackass with a sewing machine and a fashion school degree..............

WTF are you on, man? It's the designer's (or well, not exactly) choice how much they charge for something... if there's a market for it that's all that matters. You remind me of the people who say that athletes don't deserve the money they make, but did they ever stop to think that these athletes get the money because they make money for someone else to whom it's worth that.

There's more to design than just drawing some stuff and having a sewing machine, that's why not everybody is a designer... and 99.9% of graduates of art schools are totally clueless and don't have any talent what-so-ever.

[polishmike]

I don't see how these people are getting ripped off. They make their own decisions and if they want to spend $4000 on an outfit more power to them. You might think someone who buys AnnD is an idiot but I'm sure there are people who will say that buying an AA tshirt is also stupid cause you can get a cheaper one at Target.

The prices are so high because people are willing to pay them. Nothing wrong with that.

Just to add, my friend who buys everything at Barneys made all his money on his own and still doesn't care about the price. I don't see how that makes him an idiot.

[goldengloves]

Well, myself being an avid poster on sz, I am much more drawn to the 'avant-garde' style of dress.

England- I do agree with some of your points. The whole theory behind avant-garde fashion seems much different from other types of high fashion, specifically when you compare someone like CCP to Prada or Ann D. to Gucci. To me, there is much more appeal towards CCP or Ann D., but this is all personal preference, obviously there is a market for both. I do think the prices are absurd though. Myself being a student and a full time 9-5 working stiff, I just can't afford these clothes at full retail but sales are a different beast all together. Myself, I am trying to keep my wardrobe at a minimum and just have pieces that are cohesive and conform to my personal aesthetic.

Is there a certain stigma that comes with owning these brands? Sure. But the thing is, most people won't be able to tell if your wearing a CCP coat or J.Crew. So it's that unpretentiousness that comes with the avant-garde clothing that I think people tend to like. For me, simple and luxurious basics that reek of quality and craftsmenship. Some buy Burberry scarfs to let everyone know they have money and others buy CCP to evoke something different in fashion.

I do at times feel like these companies are taking advantage of being such a niche market. CCP charging 500-700 for a button up shirt! Ann D. charging 800 for converse look-a-likes! But the thing is, is that they keep thier production low and costs high to make people feel as though they are getting something rare in fashion.

Maybe there needs to be a middle ground. An avant-garde type clothing company with similar ideals to the big boys (and girls) but with higher production, lower costs, and better distribution.

But for every 100 people that can afford a Honda Civic, there is always 1 or 2 who can buy a Ferrari Modena.

[englandmj7]

Well, if you have the money why not... I don't buy stuff this expensive though, even though I have the money I have to work for it. Some people have rich parents, some people have different priorities, and some want to feel exclusive.

The point was that something simple like a plain cashmere cardigan can never warrant a markup that high.......unless it has solid gold buttons. It is the equivalent of paying $300,000 for a car with a Ferrari body and a Pinto engine.

You better not be talking about Anastasia whose outfit looks absolutely amazing. I didn't even read her post at first, so it definitely has nothing to do with the brands for me. I just think it all works and the items are mostly quite unique.

I'm not going to post the pic because there is no need to. I am sure she is a nice girl and doesn't need to be nitpicked apart. Anyone who really cares can look it up anyways.

This is where I partly agree, it is a little ridiculous. As in I wouldn't pay that much for the item, but that doesn't meant somebody else shouldn't. And to be fair, how do you know how much they make? For that matter, do you know how much I make? ... Didn't think so. Some people have rich parents and some just have different priorities. Someone wants to have nice apartment, someone wants to look good. What's so bad about that?

I didn't make any assumptions and already addressed people who are rich from their parents money. I don't care what you do, if you are under 25, which can most often be deduced from a simple WAYWT picture, there is a very small chance that you are making over 100K; and if you are for some reason, you are probably busting your ass off at work and not posting pics on an internet forum/arguing the significance of Cloak's construction methods pre-2005. Plus, I personally know at least 15 people who are into this stuff and their professions. Bottom line is, simple statistics and logic come into play.

I payed $70 for mine, does that still count as too much? I suppose it does, but as I said, sale is where it's at. As to why I bought it -- it's the only tank top that looks good on me.

No one on here is going to argue that isn't a reasonable amount to spend on a tank top you like. I don't think I am being over the top here. Very few people, however, will agree that $300 for a tank top is "reasonable."

At the end, I fail to see the point of most of your rambling, as a person shopping at Target could say this about anyone who buys even slightly more expensive stuff. If I want to buy clothing for $5000 I'm going to do it and you're not the one to decide whether it looks good or not. And trust me, people who blow that much cash on clothes couldn't care less if you can tell how much it costs or not.

I know I don't care if anybody knows what I wear.

And my own rant on this:

WTF are you on, man? It's the designer's (or well, not exactly) choice how much they charge for something... if there's a market for it that's all that matters. You remind me of the people who say that athletes don't deserve the money they make, but did they ever stop to think that these athletes get the money because they make money for someone else to whom it's worth that.

There's more to design than just drawing some stuff and having a sewing machine, that's why not everybody is a designer... and 99.9% of graduates of art schools are totally clueless and don't have any talent what-so-ever.

Meh; see, this is the argument I was afraid people would turn it into. I am not arguing the quality of Target and encouraging people to buy from them. I AM SAYING, however, that were I to wear a plain white t-shirt, a pair of plain sweat pants, and some plain white slipons, that Target would be just as decent a source of quality/style as any "high-fashion brand".......

Also, I know there is more to this stuff than a sewing machine and an idea......don't be daft and attack me. It was one minor point used for dramatic effect.

Either way, you didn't make a single point to justify the markups some of these brands use.........which is the entire point of this post.

[englandmj7]

I don't see how these people are getting ripped off. They make their own decisions and if they want to spend $4000 on an outfit more power to them. You might think someone who buys AnnD is an idiot but I'm sure there are people who will say that buying an AA tshirt is also stupid cause you can get a cheaper one at Target.

The prices are so high because people are willing to pay them. Nothing wrong with that.

Just to add, my friend who buys everything at Barneys made all his money on his own and still doesn't care about the price. I don't see how that makes him an idiot.

You're right; I don't give two shits what people do with their money.

This is getting off track as now I am simply defending my post (which is fine). All I ask to know (and know this, I am being genuine, I would really like to understand) is WHY these people think the stuff is worth the price they are charged.

And please people, this isn't an argument of "what in the world is really worth the asking price?" don't turn it into that. As I said of fine watches, yachts, paintings, whatever, they all have a purpose and will last or serve some function other than making you look good to the 300 people you saw whilst walking down Melrose last Tuesday for an hour. I want to know why BASIC, SIMPLE, GENERIC-LOOKING pieces by the likes of Yohji, Ann D., CCP, C. Diem, etc. warrant the prices they charge.

Well, myself being an avid poster on sz, I am much more drawn to the 'avant-garde' style of dress.

England- I do agree with some of your points. The whole theory behind avant-garde fashion seems much different from other types of high fashion, specifically when you compare someone like CCP to Prada or Ann D. to Gucci. To me, there is much more appeal towards CCP or Ann D., but this is all personal preference, obviously there is a market for both. I do think the prices are absurd though. Myself being a student and a full time 9-5 working stiff, I just can't afford these clothes at full retail but sales are a different beast all together. Myself, I am trying to keep my wardrobe at a minimum and just have pieces that are cohesive and conform to my personal aesthetic.

Is there a certain stigma that comes with owning these brands? Sure. But the thing is, most people won't be able to tell if your wearing a CCP coat or J.Crew. So it's that unpretentiousness that comes with the avant-garde clothing that I think people tend to like. For me, simple and luxurious basics that reek of quality and craftsmenship. Some buy Burberry scarfs to let everyone know they have money and others buy CCP to evoke something different in fashion.

I do at times feel like these companies are taking advantage of being such a niche market. CCP charging 500-700 for a button up shirt! Ann D. charging 800 for converse look-a-likes! But the thing is, is that they keep thier production low and costs high to make people feel as though they are getting something rare in fashion.

Maybe there needs to be a middle ground. An avant-garde type clothing company with similar ideals to the big boys (and girls) but with higher production, lower costs, and better distribution.

But for every 100 people that can afford a Honda Civic, there is always 1 or 2 who can buy a Ferrari Modena.

This is what I what I am interested in justification for.........

[Tiranis]

Either way, you didn't make a single point to justify the markups some of these brands use.........which is the entire point of this post.

Ok, let me explain it in simple words, since you seem to lose focus when you read something longer than couple words.

I designed a lamp, I've priced the lamp the way I feel is adequate to my EXPERIENCE, my TALENT, EXCLUSIVITY of the lamp, and CONSTRUCTION of the said lamp. That's how.

If nobody buys it then I guess I've overpriced it and perhaps I'm not being reasonable, but if somebody does then guess what... it's not overpriced by their standards.

[goldengloves]

As far as justification, there really is none more so than your own self can comprehend. Some people will see that price tag and not even blink about purchasing it and others will make an outrage. This is fashion. There are poor people and there are millionaires, there are mansions and there are projects, the list goes on. Something that is worth it to me might not be worth it to you, and this is where the buck stops.

This is the reason why I believe fashion is great. There are no boundries, everyone, at some point in time has a chance to set a trend, start a new company, and make a piece of art.

[Thorns]

Perhaps not an idiot, but potentially foolish. I've never understood the dior/raf/AnnD... plain black t-shirt for $400 thing. A name is not worth that much to me. To simply not care at all about the money seems silly. Whats the saying... "a fool and his money are soon parted.."?

That said, paying for fit, quality, or aesthetic I can understand to a point, but paying for a name seems ridiculous.

[ayn]

I like the stuff you listed, and they are fairly affordable when you wait for the sales, like they were 50% and then 30% off on top at Archive, and more than 60% off at Bloomingdale's, earlier this year... the s/s stuff at Bloomingdale's, however, sucks, I don't see the same stuff they had last season... I hope they didn't stop stocking those...

[englandmj7]

Ok, let me explain it in simple words, since you seem to lose focus when you read something longer than couple words.

I don't think there is any need to be a dick. Really.

Here I am, asking for some opinions, and all you are doing is sidestepping the argument and being condescending.

I designed a lamp, I've priced the lamp the way I feel is adequate to my EXPERIENCE, my TALENT, EXCLUSIVITY of the lamp, and CONSTRUCTION of the said lamp. That's how.

If nobody buys it then I guess I've overpriced it and perhaps I'm not being reasonable, but if somebody does then guess what... it's not overpriced by their standards.

Again, you are not making any sense. I don't care if PEOPLE pay $300K for a whale foreskin belt. I want to know why YOU BUY ITEMS AT FULL PRICE FROM THESE BRANDS. WHAT MAKES A PLAIN ANN D. V-NECK WORTH $300 TO YOU?

I don't give a shit if a housewife from Madison Ave. drop 5K on a Chanel bag. I am interested in talking to those of you who post on these forums, as I have respect (though in your case, this is questionable) for your opinions and would like to get your input.

Simple enough english for you.........asshole?

[Thorns]

Wow there were five posts during the time it took me to write that last response. I need to stop drinking.

[Tiranis]

Oh, man. You really don't get it do you.

Because I think it's worth it. Because there's something that catches my eye and that's it. Maybe it's the construction combined with the fit. Maybe it's the exclusivity. Maybe it's something else. I don't know how I decide if something is worth it...

I still don't see how this is any different from target customer talking to us. Here's what I'm trying to say: to someone who makes $2000/month $100 jeans are ridiculously expensive most likely, to someone who makes $5000 they're not. It all depends on the amount of money you have and your priorities. I've said all of this in my first post.

There's no magical formula to it, it just is overpriced to some and worth it to others. I can think that something that costs $50 is overpriced... it's not about the price, it's about what I see in that particular item.

Maybe there's something in the cut of that $400 plain t-shirt that makes this guy's body look good... maybe, just maybe he has different values than you and has different standards. Just for a second, try and imagine that someone can possibly have a totally different view of the world than you. Shocking, isn't it?

[englandmj7]

Oh, man. You really don't get it do you.

Because I think it's worth it. Because there's something that catches my eye and that's it. Maybe it's the construction combined with the fit. Maybe it's the exclusivity. Maybe it's something else. I don't know how I decide if something is worth it...

I still don't see how this is any different from target customer talking to us. Here's what I'm trying to say: to someone who makes $2000/month $100 jeans are ridiculously expensive most likely, to someone who makes $5000 they're not. It all depends on the amount of money you have and your priorities. I've said all of this in my first post.

There's no magical formula to it, it just is overpriced to some and worth it to others. I can think that something that costs $50 is overpriced... it's not about the price, it's about what I see in that particular item.

Thank you. This seems to be the only intelligent thing you have said.

Still, you fail to see the point, and I don't think I can make it anymore plebeian for you.

All money aside, would you continue to buy Ann D. garments if your budget barely allowed you to do so? (if say, you could only afford 1 item a month). If you would answer yes, please provide your justification for this. This way, you can take out the examples of very rich people and the ability of them to be careless with their money.

You also feel the urge to keep going back to this Target example, which is absurdly trite. I don't care about what some people think is overpriced. I am talking about what ALL people know is overpriced. You absolutely cannot tell me that you know anyone (no matter how rich they are) who if you asked them: "Hey Richard, my $450 million oil heir friend, do you REALLY think that cotton pullover you bought is WORTH $1100?" would say "Yes." They might say, "sure it is overpriced, but fuck it I'm rich!" which is expected, but all I want to know little man, is why YOU think the item is worth that.

If you're answer is "because fuck it, I'm rich" then say that; don't beat around the issue and hurl off-handed remarks. Even the billionaire knows the markup on his jet makes it "overpriced"........hell, it cost the company $1 million to make, and they sold it for $18 million. Does that stop him? NO. I am fine with that? OF COURSE. Do you know why? Because the businessman isn't chickenshit and clueless and can tell me: "England, I bought the jet at that price because no other company makes a jet engine like that, the leather on the seats is as soft as it gets, and to be honest, no one else makes a plane that looks quite like her." Where's your justification? I don't think I am asking for too much here..........jesus christ.

I would continue to argue the point with you, but clearly you have taken personal offense and have no interest in carrying on in a civil manner. I think people are easily blinded to the details of an argument when they have found a particular instance/quote that pisses them off. Fair enough; thanks for taking the time.

And dude, what is this:

Meh, ignore my rambling... my real gripe is with england (not the country) right now and I'm being grumpy because he can't comprehend the terms personal choice and personal opinion.

I tried to say it before, but you just can't grasp it. I wholeheartedly support everyone buying whatever the hell it is they want to buy. I am genuinely asking "why do you buy this stuff" and you can't give me a straight answer.

[alterion]

its also worth pointing out that target makes FAR more money off selling crappy tank tops at $10 than raf/ann D/ dior (well this one is the exception cause of the LVMH thing) do out of ripping off rich people. NOT that i disagree with you at all england. I think its always about finding that point of diminishing returns (which big ass sales can often provide , its why i'll buy say a pair of APC's but never some 45rpm's, while the rpm jeans are nicer the differnce is no-where near as drastic as the differnce between the quality of APC's compared to target jeans.

At the moment i'm wearing a white t-shirt that cost about $20, i could have bought one for $5 but this one is pima cotton (uniqlo if you care) and really does feel and wear nicer. Does that logic extend to the dior hooom t-shirt that costs $300 , probably not for most people but i do understand why some people would. And ofc a large part of the market is just insecure people who have to hide behind labels.

[Tiranis]

I am talking about what ALL people know is overpriced.

Actually, that's where the whole problem comes from. If I buy something that means I don't think it's overpriced or definitely not by a great deal.

If I magically lost my job and money, and only had money for one Ann D item a month... I would buy a Raf Simons item, but that's beside the point... Anyway, yeah, if I saw something I liked I would absolutely continue buying it -- finances permitting, that is the money would have to be in my budget. I wouldn't buy it if I didn't have the money, but I wouldn't buy something that's not overpriced in that case either.

I'm just trying to explain to you that things that you think are overpriced might be worth it to me because I see something in it you don't. Clothes aren't just priced for their construction which you can put a price on, there's also a matter of the design, the meaning, and many other things. I know people who look at Picasso's work and will tell you it's overpriced for what it is, to me it isn't even though I couldn't afford any of it currently. Does that make sense? What I'm saying is that just because you believe all of these items are overpriced doesn't mean everyone else believes so. Reasons can vary... it's hard to specify them, there's so many things that can make it worth the extreme price tag.

Ok, this is going to be a stupid and cliche analogy, but: let's say my family has a useless trinket that they've been passing on for generations... to me that trinket is worth millions, to someone else it's not worth anything. Obviously, clothes are not like that, but even a miniscule difference in the aesthetic of a garment can warrant the extreme pricetag for someone -- maybe it fits him perfectly and other brands just don't, maybe because "it just feels right to him", maybe because he wasn't able to find the alternative that you're talking about and he doesn't have the time to do so as his time is better spent with his family or girlfriend or ...

[goldengloves]

England-The thing is, I don't think you are ever going to get the answer you want because you have already made up your mind about what these brands mean and what kind of people buy these brands. Everyone is going to say something different.

Me, I am going to say I like the style, the quality, fabric, and craftsmenship.

As for people only being able to afford 1 item per month, if that's thier perogative, then so be it. People live beyond thier means all the time, but even this is a loaded assumption. What some people find living beyond thier means, I would say they are just living life.

There is no 'ONE' answer to this burning question of yours. I understand your plight, but it's so personal for people that it is going to evoke different emotions and answers.

[englandmj7]

Actually, that's where the whole problem comes from. If I buy something that means I don't think it's overpriced or definitely not by a great deal.

If I magically lost my job and money, and only had money for one Ann D item a month... I would buy a Raf Simons item, but that's beside the point... Anyway, yeah, if I saw something I liked I would absolutely continue buying it -- finances permitting, that is the money would have to be in my budget. I wouldn't buy it if I didn't have the money, but I wouldn't buy something that's not overpriced in that case either.

I'm just trying to explain to you that things that you think are overpriced might be worth it to me because I see something in it you don't. Clothes aren't just priced for their construction which you can put a price on, there's also a matter of the design, the meaning, and many other things. I know people who look at Picasso's work and will tell you it's overpriced for what it is, to me it isn't even though I couldn't afford any of it currently. Does that make sense? What I'm saying is that just because you believe all of these items are overpriced doesn't mean everyone else believes so. Reasons can vary... it's hard to specify them, there's so many things that can make it worth the extreme price tag.

All I am pointing out is that these brands, in particular, have a VERY high difference in cost vs. retail price; that's it.

By definition, 'overpriced' assumes that the item is priced significantly higher than what it cost to make (+ any branding, time spent designing, etc.). No reasonable person would disagree with this definition.

SO, a $500 Borrelli shirt made of a rare broadcloth, with mother-of-pearl buttons (that cost, let's say: $20 each), with hand-stitched seams created by a Neapolitan tailor to fit your body perfectly may be overpriced to some, but the ratio of people who might consider this overpriced vs. the ratio of people who might consider a plain $250 Margiela t-shirt overpriced is going not going to be even vaguely close. Why? Because the Borrelli shirt offers a straight-forward, simple justification for its markup.

I want to know the justification (because I truly do not know) for a $250 t-shirt. Can you provide this? If not, then you are not the person I am looking for and you aren't helping the conversation.

It seems alot of people are really afraid to just say "Sure, I like the shirt, it fits me perfectly, but 50% of my purchase IS based on the name." It is OK to admit this. 100%of consumers are victim to this in most instances; myself included.

Clothes aren't just priced for their construction which you can put a price on, there's also a matter of the design, the meaning, and many other things

GREAT! Now we are getting somewhere. Please explain in what capacity Ann D., Margiela, and Yohji posess this and to what extent it warrants their markup. That is what I have been asking you for the past hour.........

[goldengloves]

So England, what is it that your looking for if you already have the answer?

[viv1984viv]

The first thing I think when I see a ludicrously priced item is your paying for what the piece stands for, your buying part of an idea, or paying a premium for an expression of an idea etc I can see tiranis's point, I guess some people buy into a belief, very very similar to buying contempory art, you dont buy it soley for its purpose or what it looks like, you buy it for what it stands for and represents to you.

Also your paying for the design, the limited runs the custom made everything, designer specifying the fabric and contruction methods and also perhaps designing these......

To go back to quality, although I dont own much superbrand stuff, in all clothes I find quality incredibly inconsistent, i could pay £200 for average quality jeans very very easily in britain. I have found that tescos cashmere is softer and ages better than thomas pink and GAP cashmere, I dont know why but I do find it frustrating that I cant just presume ill get what I pay for. I have an aquascutum belt, its lasted about a year and now is cracking in an ugly and irregular manner, many cheaper belts have cracked and aged in a much more uniform and attractive way - I dont know why this is, but the aquascutum belt probably cost about £80 and certainly isnt high quality.

[englandmj7]

England-The thing is, I don't think you are ever going to get the answer you want because you have already made up your mind about what these brands mean and what kind of people buy these brands. Everyone is going to say something different.

Me, I am going to say I like the style, the quality, fabric, and craftsmenship.

As for people only being able to afford 1 item per month, if that's thier perogative, then so be it. People live beyond thier means all the time, but even this is a loaded assumption. What some people find living beyond thier means, I would say they are just living life.

There is no 'ONE' answer to this burning question of yours. I understand your plight, but it's so personal for people that it is going to evoke different emotions and answers.

Right. And what are your limits when it comes to a healthy quality/style/fabric/craftsmanship to price ratio?

So England, what is it that your looking for if you already have the answer?

I don't have the answer.

I really just want to know people's personal opinions on why they buy these things. Not to critique them, just to learn.

I could just as easily make a thread entitled "why is a Picasso worth $10 million" and if it went the way this one did, people like Tiranis would simply be saying "you just couldn't understand, even if I told you" instead of saying "because Picasso is the goddamn greatest artist of all time, he is dead for one (so his paintings are going to be worth more), he didn't make that many paintings, his brushstrokes are immaculate, he revolutionized art, etc., etc." THOSE ARE REASONS. Why can no one offer these for the brands we are talking about? Really. Not one person has offered even one reason.

Here, let me show you.

"England, why do you spend $300 on a pair of Visvims?"

Idiot England would say: "Because asshole, I like the look; why can't you understand that!!!!!!!"

Intelligent England would say: "Because, there are no other shoes like them, the construction/quality is immaculate, they cost $150 to make anyways, Hiroki Nakamura deserves my money, and I don't feel they are very overpriced for what I am getting because of these reasons."

This would be an intelligent justification for a $300 pair of shoes. For a $3000 pair of shoes, however, these reasons simply do not suffice.

[xcoldricex]

short answer.

yes, all products of the mention brands are overpriced. i have never bought an item of any of these brands at retail.

solution: never buy at retail, find insane deals.

[Bandwagonesque]

I really shouldn't have a say in this debate (so it's probably best to ignore this post if you want), since I don't know anything about those high fashion brands, but then, I really don't give a fuck what some pretentious twat with a fashion degree shits out and sells for a few grand. Even if it's made by communist lesbian albino midgets in Lapland, I don't care. Exclusivity is bullshit served on a silver platter to noveau-riche suckers who are more looking forward to not wearing it anymore than they are to wearing it. I'll take a good compromise of functionality, durability and style over overpriced avantgarde bullshit. If you can afford said bullshit at 90% off, more power to you. Even at that price I still wouldn't be interested. I like England's points in this... and I'd drain my stumpy green e-peen of rep juice for him.