Outlier

[Brainboy]

Basically it's stuff you can wear everyday and if it happens to rain it offers a decent level of protection. You just can't do that with a membrane, with a jacket they can be ok when open and inactive but move at all and they become sweatboxes.

Just want to say that I have a great respect for you and your company, I quite like Ventile, but just wondering if you ever tried Gore-Tex Pro or GT Active jackets? Because I really don't understand all those rants about membranes and sweatboxes...

[Inkinsurgent]

Something to consider is that while a membraned fabric package will be less breathable than ventile during dry conditions, gore-tex will beat ventile in vapor transmission once it actually starts raining. Ventile soaks up water into the fibre and swells shut, whereas the face fabric of a membrane package will bead off water and allow for vapor to keep moving through.

Also, for obvious reasons, once wet ventile will not keep you warm.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Inkinsurgent

[Abe1x]

Yes that's true, but modern ventiles take hours to wet out and dry quickly due to the dwr. If you compare them to how archival ventile peices behave you'll notice the difference clearly, the non dwr stuff wets out and stiffens immediately.

[hiatus]

Just want to say that I have a great respect for you and your company, I quite like Ventile, but just wondering if you ever tried Gore-Tex Pro or GT Active jackets? Because I really don't understand all those rants about membranes and sweatboxes...

My personal experience is that gt doesn't breathe well at all as your body heats up. Pit zips are a must for gt tech jackets. I don't know about the merits of supermarine (having no personal experience with it) but I do agree with the "sweatbox" comment.

[Inkinsurgent]

Yes that's true, but modern ventiles take hours to wet out and dry quickly due to the dwr. If you compare them to how archival ventile peices behave you'll notice the difference clearly, the non dwr stuff wets out and stiffens immediately.

Dwr does make a difference - it's probably safest to just class ventile as more akin to a softshell without the synthetic appearance than as a rain jacket.

[Abe1x]

Yeah see what you are getting at, it's just that softshell, while poorly defined, tends to indicate stretch fabrics with fleece backing. The ventiles are thin and are the opposite of stretchy, they barely even stretch on the bias. We just see them as a class of their own.

[Abe1x]

@Brainboy, sorry response got lost in the shuffle. We've tested new Pro stuff and its still hot and sweaty Goretex. Haven't tested the active shell stuff yet but Gore is so restrictive with what people can build with it I'm not sure it's worth the bother. Of all the membranes out now my favorite is Neoshell by far, but it's still too loud and sweaty for my tastes.

[Brainboy]

Thank you Abe, I just wanted to know your stance on these new materials. Active is great even for running but I understand that it would be very expensive and technically difficult to make jackets with Gore.

[Inkinsurgent]

Yeah see what you are getting at, it's just that softshell, while poorly defined, tends to indicate stretch fabrics with fleece backing. The ventiles are thin and are the opposite of stretchy, they barely even stretch on the bias. We just see them as a class of their own.

Agreed. It would be easier if technical fabrics were referred to based on their intended purpose rather than based on their appearance/properties. Kind of like the Twight pcu system.

[Lloyd]

Really like my new slim dungarees, only problem is that when wearing them it's painfully obvious if I have a boner. Abe can you sort this out please?

[jaac]

If anyone has slim dungarees in the grey in 30/31 hola.

Wish you guys didn't drop the grey =(

[Abe1x]

@Lloyd - sorry about that, we've been testing some of shoeller's new drug delivery textiles. If the effects ever last longer than 12hrs please consult a doctor.

@Tigerprawn - both subject to heated debate over here.

@jaac - There will be better grays available at some point in the future.

[SuE]

After a few of my concerns about the Velcro were mollified I decided to give the Supermarine Shell a shot. I ordered the Anthracite XS.

It's not black; more of a darkish grey color. It's lighter than the Navy of their other jackets actually.

The XS is unfortunately a bit big for me. The chest is boxy, which would be alright for layering, and the sleeves are long, almost up to my knuckles. Instead of setting the Velcro once (for causal use) I'll have to attach and detach everytime I put on and take off the jacket. The fit, for me, feels more like a sportswear brand than the urban techware I've become accustomed to.

However, much to my surprise, the hood is great. The techware hoods I've experienced so far, from the Veilance Field Jacket's stowaway hood to the Outlier Freeshell's new look, just didn't work right. I guess those jackets required a perfect fit to function because once it got a little windy I had a hard time keeping them on; I eventually started wearing a cap underneath the hoods. The Supermarine Shell's combination of an adjustable hood with a stiff weighted peak seems to do the trick. I haven't tested it out in a storm yet but it fits better than the rest. Abe you should release this as an attachable hood. I've got a hood for the SoftCore Jacket but this could supplant that.

The jacket does look extremely well constructed. Taped seams and all those little details do make a difference elevating this piece past all the Outlier items I own and into competition with the Veilance I've seen. I'm somewhat amused that this costs (slightly) less than the Anorak. I think it'll be amazing value — if you get a great fit. Look carefully over the measurements as Outlier's sizes change from garment to garment. I wear an Anorak S (after finding the XS too tight) yet consider the Supermarine Shell XS to be a bit big.

I can't add much else or give a proper review without putting the jacket to good use. My first inclination was to return it and hope for another water resistant shell with a better fit. There's still no ETA for the Acronym Spring collection and there's no guarantee that this Shell will be available if I later decide to settle for it. It's already listed as sold out on the Outlier site! Any other alternatives? (The Veilance SS '13 cotton hoodie doesn't appear to be water resistant).

By the way, isn't doublelayer Ventile supposed to be effectively water proof? A Supermarine Shirt paired with a Supermarine Jacket/Anorak/Shell should keep one as dry as a Goretex shell, right?

Edited September 15, 2013 by SuE

[conqueror]

for a shell, it really doesn't seem that big at all (based off that one picture).

re: velcro wrist straps, i've had a patagonia torrentshell for about 4yrs now and wear it regularly. velcro on the wrists (i have to undo them everytime i take it off) is still holding up fantastically. probably the best piece of clothing i have ever bought for under $200.

Edited March 29, 2013 by conqueror

[steph]

A Supermarine Shirt paired with a Supermarine Jacket/Anorak/Shell should keep one as dry as a Goretex shell, right?

No.

[jilla82]

Whats the consensus on how the OGs and/or Climbers hold up to daily cycling?

A big issue w/ a lot of cycling specific pants is that they still suffer from ass wear...I always see companies talk about having a reinforced crotch, but the butt area of pants of people who cycle takes a beating.

I just bought a pair of Slim Dungarees, but would like to check out Climbers if they hold up to daily riding.

[Abe1x]

@jilla82 we've never seen the 4season fabric (used in the Climbers, OGs Womens Daily Riders and 3Way Shorts) wear through from daily cycling. The softer innerface of the doubleweave will eventually wear away, but the outerface can take an incredible amount of repetitive motion. Obviously crashing, getting caught on a nail or what not can tear it, but there are quite a few pairs that have seen 2 or 3 of heavy use now that are still going strong.

@SuE that Shell looks like it fits as intended. It's designed to be worn as an outer layer with both a mid layer and an insulation piece under it. If we do it again a XXS could be an option, as it does merit sizing down for warmer weather usage.

As for two layers of ventile, steph is right it won't be as waterproof as Gore, but it will be pretty damn good for urban use in anything less than hurricane or messengering-all-day-in-the-rain like conditions. Also will be quieter and less likely to make you sweat/overheat

Also fwiw spent a few days in a LEAF pro shell piece cause of this thread and my opinion is the same, too loud and too hot.

[jilla82]

@jilla82 we've never seen the 4season fabric (used in the Climbers, OGs Womens Daily Riders and 3Way Shorts) wear through from daily cycling. The softer innerface of the doubleweave will eventually wear away, but the outerface can take an incredible amount of repetitive motion. Obviously crashing, getting caught on a nail or what not can tear it, but there are quite a few pairs that have seen 2 or 3 of heavy use now that are still going strong.

Thanks, last question...

...In your opinion what do you think is your best pair of pants to be used as daily riders? Not an office guy, but on the bike 365 and outside all the time.

[zackl111]

I can attest to the doubleweave canvas holding up. I have a pair of 2 year old plus workwears that I wore to ride in at least a few times a week, sometimes more, and the only thing that has happened is some stitching has come loose, took to tailor, they fixed, and they are back in the rotation.

I love the OG's. Just got my first pair recently, and the four way stretch is crazy awesome for riding.

[Northwest]

Just stopping in to say that I have entered into a sordid affair with my new Outlier Minimal Backpack. We go everywhere together.

Review from arrival til now:

If you ever purchase this pack, its arrival will be the one day you are dubious. My package arrived from forum member and techwear thread devotee SuE the Thursday before I left. I recently got a package for a t-shirt that was heftier than when this backpack arrived. This backpack is the lightest of the lightweights as far as I know, but it remains more than tough enough for my needs.

I am currently using this backpack to transport my phone, wallet, waterbottle, notebook, sunglasses, writing implements, and epi-pen (those with overactive immune systems represent) back and forth from work and whenever I leave the house. Honestly I look for excuses to use it because it barely feels like its there, it keeps everything in one place so I don't lose anything, and I have become overly fond of its rolltop closure and its presence on my back.

As far as tech gear goes, this is not a stealth pack. This pack makes a unique crinkling sound that comes from the Dyneema material it is composed of. This sound is most apparent when you open and close the rolltop closure. Every time I close the pack I pull gently outwards, the top of the pack comes together, I roll the excess down to above the straps, and then I fold the clips together. I have absolutely no doubt that this pack will keep water out. Once the clips come together, pulling up on the rolled top only tightens the already rolled Dyneema fabric.

I just took it on my trip to San Francisco and it was a great carry on. We walked around downtown with my clothes, headphones, books, toiletries, etc. for hours up and down hills. I felt, at most, mild discomfort at the end of that day and it was gone by the next morning. I think the ideal use of this pack, though, is to pack it in a suitcase/carryon for a trip and pull it out for walking around. It could easily fit your jacket and valuables with plenty of room for the jackets and valuables of anyone else who didn't bring a pack with them.

[einstine]

Abe what to you mean by 2 or 3? years I hope.

[brooks_]

Obviously too late now, but Gilt had the red Three Way shorts from Park and Bond up on one of their Sunday night sales (which is still open).

From what I can tell they don't usually sell all their inventory at once, so you guys may want to keep an eye out in case they pop up again in the future. You can go into the sale now and add Outlier to your favorites to see a notification when they have them in a sale - that's the only Outlier item I can imagine they'll have, though.

[Abe1x]

Yeah years.

[Abe1x]

Thanks, last question...

...In your opinion what do you think is your best pair of pants to be used as daily riders? Not an office guy, but on the bike 365 and outside all the time.

Either Climbers or one of the Dungarees (Slim for most people, Keirin if you have a small waist but cyclist thighs).

The Climbers will give you the most freedom of motion. Dungarees have more structure but still move well.

[crucialkc]

Would you guys ever consider making the keirins with 4 way stretch? I think they are my favorite cut but I love my climbers for their mobility

[brooks_]

Does anyone else have problems with stitching coming loose relatively quickly?

I just washed my keirin cuts for the first time and spent about 10 minutes trimming loose threads afterwards, including a spot on the main stitch along the seat where there is no longer one continuous stitch. Other trouble spots seem to be the pockets and waistband. Now I'm getting kinda worried about how long I can expect to wear these - I've probably only ridden 30 miles or so in them and worn them probably 12-15 times. The fabric itself has absolutely no problems and is holding up great, I'm just really worried about the stitching going now.

Edited April 3, 2013 by brooks_

[t0fu]

can anyone recommend any online retailers that carry outlier? going to be doing a lot more bike commuting to work in the coming weeks, so i'm scrambling to find some pants in my size. particularly looking to find a pair of climbers in size 34 and no telling when the restock on the outlier online store will be.

[Inkinsurgent]

All these comments about outlier stitching make me wonder if the seams have adequate stretch vs the fabric. Four way stretch fabrics can be notoriously hard to sew. Abe, have you guys been in touch with schoeller in regards to the type of thread and spi they recommend?

[fasttimes]

I've had issues with stitching coming loose on my keirin cuts, a pair of 3way shorts and the og pants too. These were all from the first or second runs though, not sure if the current models would be the same

[brooks_]

I got mine from the last restock, I think. It was at the end of February or so.