Shoes that look better with age...

[emmitbrown]

Here's what B. Nelson said, basically no:

1. This particular Vibram half-sole is not available in the U.S.

2. They can't do the loop through all the layers. Their stitching machines can't replicate the looping pattern in the middle of the sole or across the waist becuae they use guides to follow the edges of the sole only.

Here's one thing I would add - make sure that the looped stitch goes all the way through the leather and not just the rubber. There are cobbler jobs done where the stitching is merely cosmetic, and goes through the rubber of the half-sole only, before it is attached to the mid-sole. Maybe you can tell by looking inside the boot. If that's the way it is, then many cobblers could do that.

Greg, that loop would most likely be done with a Lock-Stitch McKay...

The welt stitcher would have to be some sort of special stitcher, or what I think they did which is...

Sewed the first layer of leather onto the boot with a normal welt stitcher, and then sewed the vibram half sole onto the second layer of leather seperatly, and glued them to the shoe. They then used the McKay to sew through the loop through it all.

Those McKay stitchers are VERY powerful, but I have a hard time believing that the welt stitcher actually sews through all of those layers. Mostly because of the nature of the machine itself. It uses an arc needle, which makes me think the needle would pop out the side with all of those layers.

[GregNYC]

^Yes, Nick mentioned the McKay, which he said makes a "Bates" stitch. I don't think he has one. But I sent him the photos of Coleslaw's boots. Nick's welt stitcher does go through all the layers as shown on that Japanese photo, guided by the "table" that keeps the stitch an equal distance from the edge of the sole as it goes around. I think he just doesn't have a McKay machine. I read some history about those, and they're awsome.

[emmitbrown]

I had a picture on my phone of my dad's shop. The Mckay is on the left, and then 2 Landis K's (welt stitchers) on the right, complete with condiments.

I have some vintage Florsheims that need soles and heels, so I will take some detailed pictures when I repair them.

[GregNYC]

Cool machines, probably a dying art. On the machine on the left, can you get the machine inside the shoe to do that loop stitching? Of is it for the welt and other stuff? Is it freehand or does it use guides?

[emmitbrown]

Definitely a dying art.

The left is the McKay, so yes it goes all the way through the sole and inside the shoe. That is the nature of the McKay stitcher. See the way the arm is angled and then bent back towards the top...that is the part that goes inside the shoe. You can also see the bottom of that arm is circular. It rotates 360 degrees. Also, it has a foot just like a normal sewing machine, which you can see just above the arm at about the same angle. What you normally do is route a channel in the leather or rubber to run the stitch in.

So that is what you would guide the stitch through, and at the same time, the stitches are sunk in there so they won't get worn away as quick as if they were just on top.

The loop stitch on coleslaw's boots wouldn't get a channel.

[GregNYC]

Yeah, the channels are usually for the sole-side of the welt stitches. This is as fascinating as the Union Special chainstitch machines for denim!

[emmitbrown]

Those Landis K's there have a feature that cuts a channel in the sole while you are stitching.

The channel for the McKay is done before, and by a different machine.

[coleslawyum]

Awesome pics. We need a shoe artisan revival in America. Is that mustard and relish next to the machine on the right? My favorite toppings for a hot dog… unless its really some kind of wax or grease for shoes.

[emmitbrown]

Awesome pics. We need a shoe artisan revival in America. Is that mustard and relish next to the machine on the right? My favorite toppings for a hot dog… unless its really some kind of wax or grease for shoes.

Mustard and hot pepper rings.

Here are the other pics I have on my phone...

Bench:

Finisher:

His last pair from who knows how long ago...they won't slip.

[GregNYC]

Awesome pics. We need a shoe artisan revival in America.

Totally agree, cool idea!!!

[edmond]

just got these been holding back for the past 6 months for a pair of these but lately they have been sold out everywhere.. had to have someone buy these in store. cant wait for them to arrive..

[GregNYC]

^ i'm determined to find out about that, if the inside stitchings are going through the leathers.

Heard from Nick at B. Nelson again. He said here's a quick way to tell. Maybe Coleslaw can do this. Inside the boot, pull out the sock lining or other layer on the foot-bed. If the looped stitch has been done with a McKay, you'll be able to see the the threads right there on the inside of the boot...

[coleslawyum]

Shit, why didn't I think of that before? Let me check Ahhh… lo and behold… it's only attached to the mid-sole(?) therefore cosmetic only. Not that I'm disappointed, it still looks kind of cool.

[Chicken]

this might be another clue from free&easy may 08 "from boots to hat" issue:

they had fukurojuku put vibram #705s on a pair of red wings #8179.

once the old sole materials are taken off, they covered the bottom of the uppers with cork.

from these photos, the half sole was sewn onto at least one of the mid-soles, if not both mid-soles. then sewn onto the rest of the boots with a machine called the "rapid E." whichever the case, i would think it's superior to just gluing the half soles to leather mid-soles.

i'll keep searching for more info.

[lamb.]

is that supposed to say "custom" ?

[Chicken]

^ yeah, the spell-checking is pretty loose for english over there.

i've seen burgus spelled burgas pretty often.

[coleslawyum]

Chicken さん. どうも ありがとう ございます.

[GregNYC]

Good find Coleslaw and Chicken - I sent this info to Nick to see if he can do it....

[HumanError]

George Military Boot. Was to be worn with mess uniform.

I'm projecting some wear on these and I'm liking what I'm thinking. So, any love?

[amlai]

from these photos, the half sole was sewn onto at least one of the mid-soles, if not both mid-soles. then sewn onto the rest of the boots with a machine called the "rapid E." whichever the case, i would think it's superior to just gluing the half soles to leather mid-soles.

I was going to say that this is the only thing that makes a whole lot of sense to me. By not sewing all the way through to the inside, it shoud make the shoe more waterproof. However, at the same time, I guess the chances of water getting all the way through is pretty low given the thickness of the soles.

[GregNYC]

And even this doesn't make a lot of sense anyway, since it's a chain stitch w/o channels. It will wear away quickly, and doesn't really help the rubber stay on the leather.

BUT - I just talked to Nick, and B. Nelson has some good ideas about how to do it. I'll have more info later....

[emmitbrown]

It's definitely more an aesthetics thing, than functional.

[fre-co]

Not to derail the thread from it's current and interesting topic.....

I finally got my white's semi-dress and while I love them I have a bit of a problem. I think they are a bit too small for me.

I don't know who said it but someone said they are sized the same as Alden indies, but roomier. For me this is not the case. I ordered in the same size as my indies, although an E instead of EEE fitting and they are at least half an inch shorter. I've worn them for a couple of days now and although they are not uncomfortable as such, I think I am going to end up having problems. I'm totally gutted because I waited so long for these and to order them again will be a pain in the ass.

So unless there is someone with a US9E who wants to swap for a US8.5E......?

Also could someone compare their semi-dress and Indy boots to make sure mine are not just some freak pair?

[edmond]

pictures pls?

[Madmax]

Not to derail the thread from it's current and interesting topic.....

I finally got my white's semi-dress and while I love them I have a bit of a problem. I think they are a bit too small for me.

I don't know who said it but someone said they are sized the same as Alden indies, but roomier. For me this is not the case. I ordered in the same size as my indies, although an E instead of EEE fitting and they are at least half an inch shorter. I've worn them for a couple of days now and although they are not uncomfortable as such, I think I am going to end up having problems. I'm totally gutted because I waited so long for these and to order them again will be a pain in the ass.

So unless there is someone with a US9E who wants to swap for a US8.5E......?

Also could someone compare their semi-dress and Indy boots to make sure mine are not just some freak pair?

I have the indies in 10,5EE which are a tight fit when using an insole. I tried on a size 10D at stronghold a couple of weeks ago and decided to order size 10E, they were definitely tight but felt comfortable. So my experience is that the whites are sized bigger than the indies, if not i am kinda of screwed when my pair arrives... For reference i wear 10,5EE in indies, 10,5E Alden barrie last and 10G in Crocket and Jones.

[Chicken]

that sucks fre$co,

i think i mentioned this before but i'm wearing 8.5D indys and 8D semi dress. however, my indys feel about a half size too big after stretching and my semi dress are pretty snug. from the way it's feeling, i don't know if semi dress will ever stretch -- they're built like a tank compared to my indys.

also, my indys, even though are tagged half size bigger, are definitely narrower.

by the way, humanerror, those boots look real nice. detail pics plz.

[fre-co]

Hmmm strange, thanks for the responses guys. I'll see how I get on with them. Maybe I am being pessimistic and they'll turn out ok.

But there is no way in the world I could have sized down from my indy size for the whites like you two.... must be my freakish feet! I'd definitely order a 9E next time.

Anyway, a quick family photo for the album in the failing London light.

[Madmax]

Anyway, a quick family photo for the album in the failing London light.

The skyes rich colour really shows when compared to the indies.

[fre-co]

George Military Boot. Was to be worn with mess uniform.

I'm projecting some wear on these and I'm liking what I'm thinking. So, any love?

I like those a lot. Remind of the maker again. I've looked at them online somewhere before but can't recall. Do you have some better pictures too?

If I remember correctly C&J used to make the cavalry boots for the British Military and these are almost identical in design to some old ones I have seen. I didn't buy them at the time for some stupid reason.

[HumanError]

by the way, humanerror, those boots look real nice. detail pics plz.

Chicken, I found those on the Shipton & Heneage webpage while looking for chukka boots. I wouldn't mind seeing another angle or two, but that is the only pic they have. They could be made by Alfred Sargent, but I don't know. They are boss, that is for sure.

I don't want to go way off topic here but does anyone have any word on the line of button down oxford shirts made by Turnbull & Asser for Jean Shop?

Fre$co- Well, not Alfred Sargent. I went to Pediwear and searched a bit. Sanders Shoes has a few styles identified as "George", though none with the military designation. But the overall styling is plainly similar (they show one in patent leather, which I'd never wear, not doing many red carpet affairs lately, but if I did...). On the S&H USA webpage is where you'll fine them listed as a military boot.