Selvedge Denim

[wild_whiskey]

You guys are absolutely insane. I can't believe how much you know about denim.

[35mm]

Quote:

Quote:

ringring: as far as I know, selvage means the woven edge of a fabric. Any fabric, whether it is constructed like most Evisu denim or whether it has a fringe - as long as the edge doesn't unravel, like the horizontal cut edge of a roll of fabric, then it's still called the selvedge.

I see...thanks for clearing that up. I guess the confusion arises from some people using the term 'selvage denim' to refer only to material woven on shuttle looms. (Although I don't think I'd have ever tried to find out anything about weaving were it not for this use.)

--- Original message by Yakboy Equals Nurturer on Nov 11, 2004 10:50 AM

No worries. I know that 'Selvage' and 'Non Selvage' makes it easy to catagorise the different types of denim edge finishes.

I think the main difference between the two aren't so much in quality, but just in actual physical width. "Selvage Denim" is usually 28-34" wide and "Non-Selvage Denim" is usually 56-58" wide.

Edited by ringring on Feb 3, 2005 at 01:55 AM

--- Original message by ringring on Nov 19, 2004 08:01 AM

Then what's the attraction of "selvage" for denim nerds?

Does the fabric width of selvage make for interesting types of fading?

[ringring]

Then what's the attraction of "selvage" for denim nerds?

It's an historical attraction. It's the type of loom used for old-time denim and as Yakboy mentioned above, it's likely that selvage jeans are of a good quality due to the cost of production.

Does the fabric width of selvage make for interesting types of fading?

No. The width itself is not a factor.

[wild_whiskey]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying - are you saying that selvage denim is no different in wear than non-selvage? I could have sworn reading on the 45rpm website that denim made from the shuttle loom is a tighter, textured weave and thus creates a better palette for fading and wear.

[ringring]

I'm saying that the finish on the edge of a roll of denim is not the deciding factor in how the denim with fade.

For example some producers of narrow loom selvage denim will also offer the customer the same quality in wide width. Same yarn, same dyes, same dyeing process. It's virtually the same fabric just in a different width.

Fading is decided by a combination of things: The base fabric (cotton/cotton blend, yarn, weave, dyes, dyeing process, mercerising or not, post weaving dyeing etc) and the type and amount of wear the denim is subjected to (type of abrasion, chemicals etc) and exposure to sunlight and air. The actual edge of the fabric makes very little difference.

[wild_whiskey]

I understand that much as it seems to fall into common sense that the edge finishing and fabric width really has nothing to do with denim quality... mainly what I am concerned with is knowing whether or not a yard of denim from a shuttle loom is different than a yard of denim from a projectile loom, presumably with the same base fabric.

[ringring]

If the two different width denims are made from the same ingredients, then there will be negligible difference.

Obviously they won't be 100% identical, but neither would different dye lots of the same selvage denim.

[wild_whiskey]

I keep re-reading your response, looking for some concrete reason as to why selvage denim is preferred aside from it being an historal attraction, as you put it, to the provenance and culture of quality jeans. I can understand this; it's comparable to horology, in which an aficianado would always prefer the refinement and precision of an automatic movement, despite it being less accurate than a simple quartz movement.

It looks like this whole time I've just been disillusioned into thinking that denim from a shuttle loom had better texture and quality than from a projectile loom, and that an attractive selvage end was just an extra touch to signify the extra work and resource consumption that goes into making the higher quality denim. It is more a lurking variable, that manufacturers of denim put in that extra touch, but it does not necessarily mean that the denim itself has superlative quality (at least compared to wide-loom denim).

[35mm]

I'm with wild whiskey - and thanks ringring, you're knowledge re denim is impressive and you always seem to have level-head.

[ringring]

Wild Whiskey : Nice watch anology.

Don't be disillusioned. Although the edge finish is not necessarily a factor in deciding the quality of the denim with selvage denim you have a greater chance of getting an excellent quality denim.

Here's another analogy for you:

Selvage denims are like Apple Macs. Generally good, and pretty cool. Wide loom denims are like PCs. There's a lot more variety. Some are great, loads are good, but there's also a lot of rubbish out there.

35mm : Thanks a lot for the complement. I'm still learning.

[Geowu]

Selvage denim:

"This means that the denim is made on old style shuttle looms rather than modern projectile looms. In simple terms this means that the cross thread in the weaving process goes back and forth during the weaving process. But modern looms, shoot each cross thread through individually, hence the edge of the cloth is frayed rather than clean (although brands who are only interested in making quick money, try to cash in by faking the smooth selvedge by stitching up the frayed edge afterwards).

To maximise the usage, the traditional method was to have a straight outside seam and cut right up to the selvedge so that when you turn the jean up you see the two selvedge edges of the denim stitched together. You can also see it on the inside of the coin pocket.

Denim produced on shuttle looms is naturally irregular and these irregularities come out as the jeans fade, making every pair develop into a unique and beautiful pattern as it fades. The deep blue colour and the way the jeans fade can only be achieved by using the loop dying system and all the other details give the jeans a combination of authenticity and the knowledge that you have something that is a labour of love that no other jeans or probably any other item of clothing, in the world can give you." -Extracted from Evisu.com

Now, aren't the selvage denim produced slow compared to non-selvage, and hence the better quality? I agree in theory the result could be achieved in a larger width by producing new machines.

[ringring]

Now, aren't the selvage denim produced slow compared to non-selvage, and hence the better quality? I agree in theory the result could be achieved in a larger width by producing new machines.

No, the speed is not necessarily a factor in weaving quality. The machines are from different era's, so it's like comparing the speed of a vintage car compared to a modern car, modern looms are just faster.

Narrow looms are slower at weaving, but it's the width of the denim that makes production appear slower. You need to weave twice the length of fabric to produce one pair of jeans on a narrow loom, compared to a wide loom. So if even if weaving a yard of fabric took the same time on both types of loom, you would still take twice as long to weave enough fabric for a pair of jeans on a narrow loom. (as you would need to weave about 3 yards of narrow loom denim, compared to about 1.5 yards of wide loom denim).

[Blanc0]

Historically, the "Big Three" (Levi's/Lee/Wrangler) had a colored warp stitch in the selvedge in order to identify them easier at the mills. Levis=Red, Lee=Green, Wrangler=Yellow

[35mm]

Quote:

Re : Evisu's quality- Evisu is split into at least 2, probably 3 different manufacturing parts. The first is the Japanese line, which presumably is made in Japan. Then there's the European Licencee, which designs and makes it's Evisu product in Italy, and China using Japanese and some, I believe, Korean and Italian denims..

The denim I've seen on the Japanese and Italian Evisu jeans has been pretty good, but sometimes, the washing is 'not all that' (and occaisionally downright awful) compared to what's available on the market today. The competition has grown substantially in the last few years.

Now, a loads of companies now offer selvage and the detailing (like two-colour twin stitching, hidden back pocket rivets etc) that was once Evisu-only realm.

Style-wise too, there's not the variety that other brands offer. Evisu's grown a lot more mainstream, and lost some of it's hardcore, 'strictly-denim-lovers-only' cache, but I've not noticed a big dip in denim quality from today's collections and those of several years ago. My guess is that Evisu's increased popularity has just made the brand value dip for those fashionistas who crave 'rare' brands (ie more of a perceived drop in quality than an actual drop per se).

One last thing to note, "Made in China" does not necessarily mean a dip in quality, not these days.

Re : Selvedge/Selvage

The 'chain stitching' isn't a stitch as such. It's just a coloured warp thread. All denims (and all woven fabrics in general) have a selvedge edge, it's just that some are not as clean or as pretty as Evisu's. eg Many denims' selvedge leaves a short 'fringe' of weft threads at each edge.

Selvage denim mills are quite capable of producing the exact same quality denim in also wider 'non selvage' versions. They use the same yarns, same dyes and same weave patterns, it's just the width of the cloth and the edge finish that changes.

Re : Fading

All denim will fade according to how it is worn, regardless of whether it's a 'selvedge' denim or not. How you wear and wash your denim will have at least as greater effect on the look as the denim itself. This by default, results in ALL jeans being unique to the wearer over time.

Of course, high quality denim may have more interesting nuances for denim afficionados, such as double ring spun (ring warp +ring weft), the size and frequency of the ring warp (fiammatura), multiple cold dying, rope dying, mercerising, broken twills etc. This does not depend on the selvage, just the type of thread used and the dye process.

Many large scale, high quality denims have over 100 different coloured dyes in them, and are dyed 6+ times to produce a larger chromatic scale. ALL denims vary in shade between Lots. Again this does not depend on the selvedge at all and there's no less 'art' or skill needed to produce high volume high quality denim, than to produce low volume 'artisan' denim. (In fact, one could argue that it has taken much more cumlative experience and research to produce modern high quality denims.) It's just different ways to achieve similar things.

Re : Hard wearing

Again, this is nothing to do with the selvedge edge at all. It's more to do with the weight of the denim (heavier cloth usually lasts longer. eg. a cheap 14oz pair of Carhartts will probably have greater abrasion resistance and tear strength than an expensive pair of 9oz 'selvage' 45rpm's), type of weave, density (yarn count) and how much the industrial washing has effected it. (Chemical bleaches, potassium sprays, handbrushing etc will all weaken denim). The quality of the actual cotton will also pay some part, although I'm not entirely convinced that many people would be able to tell the difference between a bale of cotton from the USA, Egypt, Zimbabwe, China or Pakistan, let alone the differences in the cottons after spinning, weaving, dying, sanforizing and post sewing washes.

Re : Twist

This is a characteristic that is created by the uneven shrinkage o

[Geowu]

I think double (ring-ring) denim has the selvage on both vertical and horizontal planes. Like the denim is "folded" over itself in both horizontal and vertical. Never saw it, may be wrong, and don't know how to determine.

Another selvage brand: Dior Homme

[ringring]

The selvage is just the edge of the fabric. I suspect you may have intended to write "ringspun yarn" instead of "selvage" there.

Ring-Ring denim has ringspun yarn as both weft and weave. Ringspun yarn is slubby, (ie it's not a smooth, 'straight' thread, but has little lumps in it) so the quick way to tell is to have a look on the reverse side. You will usually* see diagonal blue threads and horizontal white threads. If the threads are both slubby then it's Ring-Ring denim.

On the front side of the denim (the blue side), you should see vertical slubby lines of the ringspun indigo thread.

*in a broken twill weave you won't see a clear diagonal pattern, but broken twills are far less common.

[Geowu]

Do you know a good brand that uses ring-ring denim, natural dyes, and is not a Levi's copy?

[ringring]

What do you mean by Levi's copy? Anything that is not a 5-pocket jeans style?

The natural indigo jeans that I know of are all classic 5 pocket jeans. (45rpm, Studio D'Artisan, Howies Truthster...)

[Geowu]

Hm... yes, I mean, those vintage cuts from back in the 50's or so...

I never saw any brand saying they make ring-ring denim that's all

[ringring]

Ring-Ring is quite a technical term, that's why you won't see it used much on advertising. Brands may say their denim is "Ringspun" instead (although that could be a Ring Denim, rather than Ring-Ring).

Regarding the cut or fit of jeans, vintage jeans came in various cuts, eg. a Levi's 1947 is quite a slim fitting style which could be comparable to the APC Unisex, whereas a 50s Levi's is quite loose in the leg.....

If you don't mind widening your criteria to include synthetic indigo, then you'll easily find Ring-Ring, non 501 style jeans from many, many brands...

[Guest]

as ringring said the term "ring-ring" is more a technical term. basically it means that the warp and weft are ring-spun - kinda "cashmere of denim"!

after the 70's "open-end" spinning was introduced. this spinning basically skips several processes that ring yarns go through. for the same reason as non-selvedge: faster, cheaper, more effecient.

later, to kinda replicate ring/ring, they introduced "faux-ring" or "ring/oe". basically the warp is ring and the weft is open-end spun. hence you keep the price down but get a stronger denim than just oe on both. but that's not the real mccoy right?!

usually, or if you happen to have lots of time to look at denim for some odd reason, you can see the difference between ring/ring or oe. but nowadays, it's tougher to distinguish between ring/ring and ring/oe since they try to fake the slubbyness or irregularities.

another factor of the strength but also beauty of denim is how the twill was woven. the more common construction is 2x1 or 3x1. the latter one is the more expensive but also the more stronger one.

contrary to ringring's statement, i think it makes a difference whether you spin it on a shuttle loom or 60"wide loom. the machines are so different that it will effect the denim - time makes a difference. but there's bad and cheap selvedge out there with weak constructions!

another important thing is the dyeing process. i have been reading here some stuff about natural indigo (such as the studio d'artisan)... well if you don't mind i would like to write something about it.')

there are many techniques of dyeing and also with what. there's rope dyeing, ring dyeing, sulphur dyeing, etc...

good authentic ring indigo denim is rope dyed. threads are gathered to ropes and dyed in several baths of indigo, then washed dried beamed and finally woven.

at ring dye, only the outer ring of fibres are dyed, leaving the core undyed therefore easier to get hi-lows later. also to enhance the effect you can mercerize it.

most of the denim in the market are pure indigo - a petroleum based synthetic dye or sulphur indigo. here the warps are treated either prior the dye (sulphur bottom) to keep the core of the yarn from the indigo, or after the dye (sulphur top). pure indigo has no sulphur dye.

natural indigo, as most of you know is harvested from the plant such as indigofera, storobilanthes and polygonum. the whole process is very time-consuming and not cheap. i heard that during the fermentation process urine is used...?!

hope this helps.

back to my saturday...

[urban sprawl]

as ringring said the term "ring-ring" is more a technical term. basically it means that the warp and weft are ring-spun - kinda "cashmere of denim"!

after the 70's "open-end" spinning was introduced. this spinning basically skips several processes that ring yarns go through. for the same reason as non-selvedge: faster, cheaper, more effecient.

later, to kinda replicate ring/ring, they introduced "faux-ring" or "ring/oe". basically the warp is ring and the weft is open-end spun. hence you keep the price down but get a stronger denim than just oe on both. but that's not the real mccoy right?!

usually, or if you happen to have lots of time to look at denim for some odd reason, you can see the difference between ring/ring or oe. but nowadays, it's tougher to distinguish between ring/ring and ring/oe since they try to fake the slubbyness or irregularities.

another factor of the strength but also beauty of denim is how the twill was woven. the more common construction is 2x1 or 3x1. the latter one is the more expensive but also the more stronger one.

contrary to ringring's statement, i think it makes a difference whether you spin it on a shuttle loom or 60"wide loom. the machines are so different that it will effect the denim - time makes a difference. but there's bad and cheap selvedge out there with weak constructions!

another important thing is the dyeing process. i have been reading here some stuff about natural indigo (such as the studio d'artisan)... well if you don't mind i would like to write something about it.')

there are many techniques of dyeing and also with what. there's rope dyeing, ring dyeing, sulphur dyeing, etc...

good authentic ring indigo denim is rope dyed. threads are gathered to ropes and dyed in several baths of indigo, then washed dried beamed and finally woven.

at ring dye, only the outer ring of fibres are dyed, leaving the core undyed therefore easier to get hi-lows later. also to enhance the effect you can mercerize it.

most of the denim in the market are pure indigo - a petroleum based synthetic dye or sulphur indigo. here the warps are treated either prior the dye (sulphur bottom) to keep the core of the yarn from the indigo, or after the dye (sulphur top). pure indigo has no sulphur dye.

natural indigo, as most of you know is harvested from the plant such as indigofera, storobilanthes and polygonum. the whole process is very time-consuming and not cheap. i heard that during the fermentation process urine is used...?!

hope this helps.

back to saturday!

[urban sprawl]

ringring,

some denim you havent mentioned.

omnigod - i think same mill as prps

rogan - had his name on the selvedge

kato - most beautiful fabric from japan

virus - most beautiful slubs from japan

club monaco - they're having some japanese reds.

45rpm - sorahiko and aihiko!!!

rrl - but of polo but very nice. green selvedge

jean shop - nyc part of lucky. orange selvedge

Edited by urban sprawl on Mar 26, 2005 at 10:23 AM

Edited by urban sprawl on Mar 26, 2005 at 10:24 AM

[Geowu]

I can't find most of these brands on the internet, let alone on the real world.. since most are Japanese.

IMO it was really bad when the companies stopped caring about the quality of denim and only think about profit. If they had continued trying to just improve what was already good then we could have much much better denim today. I can't understand why Levi's just stopped using selvage, natural dyes, ring-ring, etc.. I figure denim was always supposed to be cheap and resistant.

[ringring]

Some good news...Japan is in the real world

And denim still is cheap and resistant .

You can get good quality denim jeans at very reasonable prices (eg. Uniqlo one-wash Kaihara's at approx US$36 full retail price, cheap $30 Levis shrink-to-fits etc). So you could pick up, say 6/7 pairs of those for the same price as a US$250 pair of 'premium' jeans. Those 6 would outlast your one pair of Premiums.

Another example - Uniqlo selvage jeans cost only about US$56 full retail price - selvage jeans that are in the spirit of old Levi's? Cheap, quality workpants.

The choice of denim has never been greater or better.

Urban Sprawl :"contrary to ringring's statement, i think it makes a difference whether you spin it on a shuttle loom or 60"wide loom. the machines are so different that it will effect the denim - time makes a difference. but there's bad and cheap selvedge out there with weak constructions!"

Well, I kind of agree with you, in the sense that selvage denim generally provides a good measure of quality. (as Yakboy stated early in this thread) And of course many wide loom denims are worse than many narrow loom denims.

However, I maintain that it's the ingredients (eg the dyeing processes that you mentioned) that make the denim that are more important to the quality than the width of the loom or the speed of the weaving. For example, if you took two 34" looms and slowed one down by 15%, would the one running at normal speed quality be lower? Speed increases in weaving are just evolutions in technology, it doesn't mean that the quality is necessarily compromised.

Like I posted earlier, you can buy denim in 2 widths, produced in the same mill using the same cotton, same yarn, same dyes, same dyeing method, same weave pattern, same yarn count, same finishing, etc - with the only difference being the width of the fabric produced.

I don't see how "the machines are so different that it will effect the denim", and nor does the mill that produces it. For all intents and purposes it is the same denim in 2 different widths. If you cut out a square from a roll from both widths of the same quality, you'd be extremely hard pressed to tell them apart.

Cool post BTW.

Edited by ringring on Mar 26, 2005 at 03:31 PM

[urban sprawl]

it's all about the benjamins... and synthetics. mass production for convenient and comfortable masses.

but hey, because there's kmart jeans people like us have something to dream about...happy easter!

goewu, sorry that you can't find'em. maybe it would be too easy and convenient if you could?;p

[Yakboy Equals Nurturer]

Went in to take a look at the Bape store in SoHo last week, and saw an interesting feature on the selvage line of the jeans they had there. The 'ape shall not kill ape' line had been woven into the denim going all the way up the selvage line. Then just the other day I saw a cotton/hemp half-selvage pair of Rogans that had the Rogan 'r' pattern running up the selvage line. Nice detail. Anyone seen it before?

[ringring]

Yeah I've seen it. It's kinda like the finish on the selvedge of wool suiting fabrics. I'm pretty sure I've seen some other 'written selvedge' - on a pair from Sean John?

[wild_whiskey]

Quote: I don't see how "the machines are so different that it will effect the denim", and nor does the mill that produces it.

I think he's referring to the fact that the shuttle looms are antique and have been used lots, while the newer looms are just that.. newer. So naturally, even if they are meant to make the exact same weave, they will produce a slightly different denim because of the nature of how the machines were created and how long they've been around. I would assume the shuttle looms would create a slightly more imperfect denim surface, as an evolution in technology generally means a step towards a more perfect/symmetrical/boring () product.

[ringring]

I see where you are coming from Whiskey. Big looms, little looms, new and old, all they do is intertwine horizontal and vertical yarns together. Get the weave, yarn count and tension right and you're pretty much there.

Here's an analogy (as you're fond of them LOL), I can stitch one line on my mother's 40 year sewing machine, and then do another line on a brand new Elna. If I use the same thread, and keep the stitch length and tension the same, then you'd be hard pressed to tell which was done by which.

It's the yarn and dyeing that creates the 'imperfections'. Like I have said, you can sometimes buy the same denim article in two different widths. The mill(s) that produces it, claims they are virtually the same fabric*. And I, for one, believe them.

(*bear in mind no two lots of denim will ever be 100% the same, even if they come off the same loom).