Silly discussion about "Raw" etc (warning people acting like 5 year olds!)

[electrum]

The following terms with their real meanings are used so loosely by the denim industry, they have lost there significance. They are now nothing more than meaningless marketing verbiage:

Rigid = stiff, unbending, inflexible, etc. Look it up in the dictionary.

Anyone who calls soft flimsy denim "rigid" is wrong.

Raw = unprocessed, untreated, natural (unwashed).

Not rigid, sanforized, mercerized, distressed, etc.

Deadstock = an unsold vintage stock item discovered in an old or abandoned store, house, flea market, etc.

A new current production item being sold as "deadstock" is not actually dead stock -- it's new current stock.

[Paul T]

Re definitions. I certinaly agree that deadstock is a much abused term, it's really irritating when people apply this to new items.

Raw means unwashed and certainly applies to Sanforized jeans.

I would personally assume that raw, rigid and dry all mean the same thing.

[Guest DCDenim]

washing has nothing to do with jeans being raw.

rinsed/one wash jeans are still raw, so long as they are indigo dyed and not treated/distressed in any way.

[blm14]

Beg to differ. One wash is "one wash" not raw. Rinsed jeans often don't even share the same type of fading properties as raw or one-wash. You're correct in that one-wash jeans will essentially behave the same way in terms of fading as a raw pair, so raw-unsanforized, raw-sanforized, and one-wash-unsanforized will all fade, but there's really a difference between buying a pair of raw unsanforized jeans and a pair that has been pre-one-washed for you. You don't get the opportunity to sculpt them to you before they dry.

But certainly you cannot say that rinsed = one washed = raw.

[Guest DCDenim]

I disagree ben, just because a factory throws raw jeans in a washer for 15 minutes or soaks them for me and does nothing else to them, still makes them raw.

whenever I get raw jeans, I always soak them, sanforized or not to get out any possible shrinkage, no matter how minimal, so all raw jeans are intended to come in contact with water before wear anyway and while I can't say they are rigid or unwashed anymore, I can still call them raw jeans.

while it's important to differentiate what you are selling by labeling it stf, one wash, dry, rigid, etc, it is all part of the raw denim umbrella.

[Paul T]

What if they throw them in the washer for 40 minutes, not 20? Is twice-washed still raw? OR three times? If you just have quick sex, for 20 minutes or less, are you still a virgin?

Raw means not washed, not laundered, original state. Yes, one wash SC are not vastly different to raw SC, but they are not raw. That is why Sugarcane, BlueinGreen etc, list their One Wash jeans separately from their raw jeans.

[blm14]

If we're going to speak of "raw denim culture" then you have a somewhat point, but I think you're expressing it inaptly. The same heads who are interested in any ONE of:

- Raw unsanforized

- One wash unsanforized

- Raw sanforized

Are highly likely to be also interested in the other two. But if we're speaking of definitions, then raw is raw and one-wash is one-wash. There's a reason the two different terms exist.

[DrMoBueno]

What if they throw them in the washer for 40 minutes, not 20? Is twice-washed still raw? OR three times? If you just have quick sex, for 20 minutes or less, are you still a virgin?

Raw means not washed, not laundered, original state. Yes, one wash SC are not vastly different to raw SC, but they are not raw. That is why Sugarcane, BlueinGreen etc, list their One Wash jeans separately from their raw jeans.

If we're going to speak of "raw denim culture" then you have a somewhat point, but I think you're expressing it inaptly. The same heads who are interested in any ONE of:

- Raw unsanforized

- One wash unsanforized

- Raw sanforized

Are highly likely to be also interested in the other two. But if we're speaking of definitions, then raw is raw and one-wash is one-wash. There's a reason the two different terms exist.[/q

case closed.

+rep, only i still need to spread it around, sorry guys...

[Charlie Delta]

The following terms with their real meanings are used so loosely by the denim industry, they have lost there significance. They are now nothing more than meaningless marketing verbiage:

Rigid = stiff, unbending, inflexible, etc. Look it up in the dictionary.

Anyone who calls soft flimsy denim "rigid" is wrong.

Raw = unprocessed, untreated, natural (unwashed).

Not rigid, sanforized, mercerized, distressed, etc.

Deadstock = an unsold vintage stock item discovered in an old or abandoned store, house, flea market, etc.

A new current production item being sold as "deadstock" is not actually dead stock -- it's new current stock.

What you call Raw, would actually be considered "Loomstate" by most, literally meaning, in the exact same state as when it came off the loom.

[Paul T]

What you call Raw, would actually be considered "Loomstate" by most, literally meaning, in the exact same state as when it came off the loom.

Exactly.

Debate is good, making up your own definitions simply makes life confusing.

[siq tribal brah]

just wondering is there "raw" denim out there today that wouldn't be considered "loomstate"?

[Paul T]

Yes. Sanforized denim, used by Lee and others - denim is treated, often with steam, and pressed with rollers to stabilise. Singed denim, where the 'hairiness' is removed with a flame. Skewing, which reduces leg twist, as used on the 501STF and others. Although starch is applied before weaving to make the process easier, it can be added afterwards, too, often to make the denim easier to cut and handle. I'm sure there's loads more.

[blm14]

Once you have sex with the denim for more than 20 minutes it is no longer loomstate.

[Guest DCDenim]

then sanforized denim can't be considered raw either because it has come into contact with water.

[erk]

then sanforized denim can't be considered raw either because it has come into contact with water.

i think thats what paul t said...

[Guest DCDenim]

so tell me why BiG is calling their sanforized denims raw?

[Charlie Delta]

You are fucking annoying!

[Guest DCDenim]

perhaps,

but I just proved my point

if sanforized = raw, then rinsed = raw.

[erk]

loomstate is a much less vague term then raw. to me raw encompasses all denims that have not been treated (as in distressed) ,washed or rinsed.

this discussion is getting silly and I would like it to go back to being about LVC.

[Paul T]

Sanforized is not loomstate. It is raw, though.

(Being steam treated and rolled through a drum is not the same as being washed or rinsed.)

[Guest DCDenim]

oh, because steam is only a little bit of water, but rinsing is using a lot of water

I suppose if you blow your load in 15 seconds instead of 15 minutes, you are still a virgin

y/n?

[Charlie Delta]

Again, you're being annoying!

In the industry, the term "raw" is hardly heard, exactly for this reason, we're talking about a fabric here, not fish or meat.

So if you want to hang onto your definition of "Raw", then by all means go ahead, but please do quit acting like a bitch about it.

Thank you!

[pomata]

^indeed. raw sanforized denim are not washed or treated with water, but pressed and treated with steam. they reduce shrinking from around 10%(raw unsanforized) to around 1-2%(raw sanforized). At least thet's what the guys at the cotton mills told me:)

oops.sorry then

[Guest DCDenim]

steam = H2O

water =H2O

just sayin'

glad we could have this discussion!

alright..

[Paul T]

oh, because steam is only a little bit of water, but rinsing is using a lot of water

y/n?

Sanforizing is not washing. Just as steam ironing is a different process from washing, or rinsing.

THink about it. RInsing removes starch etc. Treating a fabric with steam, without rinsing away any resins or starches, has an entirely different result., both in colour and texture.

Anyway... goodnight.

[Charlie Delta]

Listen, if that is how you want to play it then I suggest you jump off a bridge into water (H2O) and after having experienced that jump off a bridge onto ice (frozen water = still H2O) and then tell us the difference.

I hope you break your legs!

[siq tribal brah]

sanforizing denim in no way fades it? am i wrong here?

rinsing or washing, on the other hand, does

[Charlie Delta]

"Raw" is a stupid term to begin with and I think people are only still using it for lack of a better sounding alternative...

[rnrswitch]

Man this thread started off on the wrong note. I have seen jean manufacturers list jeans as "raw" even when they have been laundered, but just because some marketing dude chooses to use a hot phrase like "raw," to ride the "raw denim" bandwagon does not make what they are selling raw.

raw is rigid and is not one wash.

[Guest DCDenim]

Listen, if that is how you want to play it then I suggest you jump off a bridge into water (H2O) and after having experienced that jump off a bridge onto ice (frozen water = still H2O) and then tell us the difference.

I hope you break your legs!

Gravity accelerates everything at 9.8 m/s downward. So with a height of 67 meters (average bridge), it will take 3.7sec to hit the water. (dist = .5 x g x t^2)

Velocity at impact would be V = g x t, so V = 9.8 x 3.7 = 36 m/s = 80 mph.

Water is extremely dense, so imagine hitting a concrete wall (or ice) at 80mph.

so I don't understand what you are trying to prove..