LVC - Naturall vs. Synthetic Indigo

[Shorty Long]

Does anyone know the year(s) when denim producers for Levi such as Cone Mills began the switch from natural to synthetic indigo? I thought I read somewhere that it was around the time of WWII. I'm asking because I just bought a pair of LVC 1944 501s from Cinch in London and was wondering if they used natural indigo in the reproductions.

[Paul T]

Levi's first denim producers were Amoskeag - they used natrual indigo. From around 1917 Levi's started switching to Cone, who used synthetic indigo, and from 1922 it was exclusively Cone fabric, all synthetic. The 44 originals, and the repros, use synthetic indigo, as do most of the LVC jeans.

I believe that when, on some jeans, LVC use natural indigo, they tend to source from Japan. I noticed the 1890s current repro uses a really distictive denim - wouldn't surprise me if that comes from Japan, too, but that is probably synthetic.

On the original jeans, the Amoskeag denim is a greenier blue, the Cone is a redder blue.

[Shorty Long]

Thanks...I think what misled me was the fact that in their WWII Levi repros, Buzz Rickson uses natural indigo, so I assumed that Levi would have done the same thing in the 40s and before.

[XX]

how come nowadays whenever you see pairs claiming to be dyed with natural indigo theyre always like a baby blue color?

[takashi]

^ Not necessarily the case (although I have seen jeans like you're describing). I have a pair of Samurai natural indigo jeans and they are a darker blue than any of my others (LVC, Edwin, Lee, etc).

From what I know, there's no particular reason why natural indigo should be lighter or darker than synthetic indigo. A greater determinant of the darkenss of the colour is the number of times the warp yarn is successively dipped and oxidised in the indigo solution. Maybe, since natural indigo is much more expensive to produce, some makers compensate by dipping them a fewer number of times? Or perhaps without the sulphur binding agent it takes more dips for the natural indigo to acheive the same colour saturation? (just a thought... I'm not a chemist). All I know is that natural indigo denim can be very dark indeed.

Also, don't go too much by photographs -- it's very difficult to capture the true colour of jeans in photos, especially if flash is used, etc.

Edited by takashi on Jan 9, 2006 at 06:18 AM

[Paul T]

Takashi is right. But the early indigo-dye 201s are more that cyan colour - it's possible the 501s were darker, although it's almost impossible to tell from old examples. Check out the 'check these out' thread to see what an indgo-dyed pair from 1904 or so looks like...

[JeffreyBelengazi]

I'm sure I remember a sales guy in American Classics, London telling me a few years back that LVC Japan make a point of using vegetable indigo and that they are preferable to US LVC for this reason?

Just bought a pair of Japanese LVC '47s and it came to mind... anyone know if this is true??

Thanks... and sorry if this has already been answered elsewhere

[tweeds]

i don't believe the above is true...japanese LVC does come in alot more models though.

[airfrogusmc]

^ Not necessarily the case (although I have seen jeans like you're describing). I have a pair of Samurai natural indigo jeans and they are a darker blue than any of my others (LVC, Edwin, Lee, etc).

From what I know, there's no particular reason why natural indigo should be lighter or darker than synthetic indigo. A greater determinant of the darkenss of the colour is the number of times the warp yarn is successively dipped and oxidised in the indigo solution. Maybe, since natural indigo is much more expensive to produce, some makers compensate by dipping them a fewer number of times? Or perhaps without the sulphur binding agent it takes more dips for the natural indigo to acheive the same colour saturation? (just a thought... I'm not a chemist). All I know is that natural indigo denim can be very dark indeed.

Also, don't go too much by photographs -- it's very difficult to capture the true colour of jeans in photos, especially if flash is used, etc.

Edited by takashi on Jan 9, 2006 at 06:18 AM

Never judge color and density on a computer monitor. Most PCs are pre set to 9100 kelvin and macs are pre set to 5500 k and that doesn't take into anything that was done by you or what was done at the factory to your monitor.

[airfrogusmc]

Levi's first denim producers were Amoskeag - they used natrual indigo. From around 1917 Levi's started switching to Cone, who used synthetic indigo, and from 1922 it was exclusively Cone fabric, all synthetic. The 44 originals, and the repros, use synthetic indigo, as do most of the LVC jeans.

I believe that when, on some jeans, LVC use natural indigo, they tend to source from Japan. I noticed the 1890s current repro uses a really distictive denim - wouldn't surprise me if that comes from Japan, too, but that is probably synthetic.

On the original jeans, the Amoskeag denim is a greenier blue, the Cone is a redder blue.

I know from experience that all the pair of LVCs I've bought with blue/green line denim the denim is a different color than the red line stuff and fades much differently also. It has more of a greenish tint to it than the red line stuff has.

[Paul T]

I'm sure I remember a sales guy in American Classics, London telling me a few years back that LVC Japan make a point of using vegetable indigo and that they are preferable to US LVC for this reason?

Just bought a pair of Japanese LVC '47s and it came to mind... anyone know if this is true??

Thanks... and sorry if this has already been answered elsewhere

As suggested above, not true. LVC Japan use Cone denim in general for the 501 models. There have been odd LVC jeans using natural denim, but this has mostly been confined to pre 1900 models. The green-ish slubby denim used on the 201 repros is a very nice denim - but it's synthetic. There would be no reason for LVC to use natural denim on a repro of a jean that originally featured synthetic denim.

[airfrogusmc]

Paul I had discusion with someone recently and he said that he heard US LVC was no longer using Cone denim on their red line stuff. I told him I thought he was mistaken because I had thought you said that they still were. Just curious but LVC US is still using cone right?

[Paul T]

Paul I had discusion with someone recently and he said that he heard US LVC was no longer using Cone denim on their red line stuff. I told him I thought he was mistaken because I had thought you said that they still were. Just curious but LVC US is still using cone right?

I heard rumours before that LVC had stopped using Cone; I saw the specs for spring 07 and they specified Cone for all the raw 501s IIRC; the 505 use Kaihara fabric. All the literature I've seen for LVC Japan tends to highlight the use of Cone denim, that's one of the things the Japanese consider important fo r authenticity. The confusion might arise from the fact that some of the washed jeans use European selvage denim - not sure why they changed, could be simply the cost, but I heard it was something to do with trade quotas.

[airfrogusmc]

I heard rumours before that LVC had stopped using Cone; I saw the specs for spring 07 and they specified Cone for all the raw 501s IIRC; the 505 use Kaihara fabric. All the literature I've seen for LVC Japan tends to highlight the use of Cone denim, that's one of the things the Japanese consider important fo r authenticity. The confusion might arise from the fact that some of the washed jeans use European selvage denim - not sure why they changed, could be simply the cost, but I heard it was something to do with trade quotas.

Paul thanks so much,

Allen