how long will u continue to pay for the high priced jeans

[damnIam]

Could not agree more!!!

[Geowu]

the living cost in Japan (at least in Tokyo and Osaka) is approximately 170% of that of the US.

However, the average Japanese's annual income is nearly half of that of the average US citizen.

(around $22,000 in Japan versus around $40,100 in the US).

The US is in the 3rd place of countries with highest income, while Japan is around the 22th place, together with Germany.

Higher cost of living, less money. I wonder what are the effects of this on society's habits.

[takashi]

^ Living in absolutely tiny places, mainly. People in the west would not believe how small the living spaces are (in general), or how the Japanese manage to pack everything into them.

[giantreptile]

geowu: that may be, but income taxes are much lower in Japan. and remember the yen goes a long way compared to the dollar.

[takashi]

Sales tax is lower (5%), but not income tax (I should know -- I paid it there for years).

It's about on a par with the UK and the US: around 40% for the top bracket, give or take. Hong Kong and Singapore have much lower income tax, but not Japan.

[giantreptile]

i don't know man, i think it has to do with your status (ie resident, permanent resident, nonresident etc.), and the permanent residents that I know pay on the order of 10-15%.

[dismalfuture]

Quote:

the living cost in Japan (at least in Tokyo and Osaka) is approximately 170% of that of the US.

However, the average Japanese's annual income is nearly half of that of the average US citizen.

(around $22,000 in Japan versus around $40,100 in the US).

The US is in the 3rd place of countries with highest income, while Japan is around the 22th place, together with Germany.

Higher cost of living, less money. I wonder what are the effects of this on society's habits.

--- Original message by Geowu on Dec 20, 2005 08:38 AM

After having lived with Japanese people for a long time, I reckon this is a legitimate question. I also reckon that the bulk of Japanese people would be left speechless at how much you guys know about Japanese specialty denim.

I think in general, the Japanese just tend to buy less shit overall than we do. This reaches to clothing, where the Japanese don't have the walk-in closets or double-width closets taht are found in most American homes, and the closet full of unworn clothes that goes along with those monster closets. Most have to add a rolling rack, a plastic box, or have a couple hooks on the wall. Less storage, less clothing. They wear their clothes til they're worn or unstylish and then pitch them for new ones. Also, having less space means they buy more selectively and methodically as to which pieces they cop when they go shopping.

Personally, I grew up in a household in America where my mother insisted I wear freshly washed clothes daily just because, which caused some shock to me the first time I went to Europe and Japan and found out you could wear your clothes, especially jeans, more than once per washing and it bore no ill side effects!

The Japanese are pretty good with personal finances, I think. This comes down to a combination of the Eastern 'What can I change about myself' vs. 'What can I change about others' idea and the obedience that one should live somewhere within their means. There's been several waves of economic change in Japan in the past 50 years that gives each generation a totally different attitude towards money though. For people our parent's age, a big black luxury car and a Rolex Oyster Day-Date used to suffice in the way of material goods. For Japanese people our age, the big black luxury car and Rolex are of little interest to them, and they'd rather have European-branded clothes and accessories. Americans bury themselves deep in financial liabilities, whereas the Japanese might not. The same American here who must have the $400 45rpm's in three or four different models also must have a cool car, an outfitted place to live, eat at nice places on their free time, etc. In America, to do things stylish, it costs a lot of money. In urban Tokyo, many things we consider to be cool and trendy are the norm there because they just don't have the physical space to accomodate lame shit. You go out to buy a desklamp in Japan and your choices go from something design-y and cheap to something design-y and expensive. Japanese people load up on lunch because eating out at lunch in Japan can be 4-5x cheaper than dinnertime. Finally, the biggest factor in all of this is that a huge number of young Japanese people still live with their parents well into their 20's and even 30's, and treat their own income as spending money, thus pushing the market to offer them all of these consumer choices.

Last thing to remember is that comparing average to average means that you're talking about most of the people who don't share the same interests as most of you people, for financial reasons. Do average American John Smiths who make $40,000 a year really go out worrying about what kind of Osaka-made selvage denim to cop next? Nah, they go to the local shopping mall and get a $40 pair of jeans. In the same way, does the average Japanese Mr. Tanaka making $20,000 a year really worry about it either? Nah, they go and get Uniqlos or something els

[johninger]

high priced jeans are here to stay. i think designer jeans like dior's will go away as they can't justify that price tag. But well made denim using good raw materials will always be worth it.

Well excuse me! Excuse me...

[wild_whiskey]

dismal, thanks for the post.

Tokyo and Osaka are the two most expensive cities in the world. What about most other Japanese cities? I would imagine that the difference in cost of living between those two cities and the suburban areas is astronomical... at least more so than urban->suburban in America.

I'm interested in your answer because I plan to live in Japan for the JET program, and may end up staying permanently.

Edited by wild_whiskey on May 9, 2006 at 12:14 AM

[6MT]

i dont know, last time i check the rent price for tokyo, is actually cheaper than LA, and i'm talking about ikebukuro, not chiba.....and food are about the same price, so i dont knowhow the world sets the price on goods, i mean some times in our life water are more expensive than gas......

[6MT]

Quote:

when they're cheaper than your mom.

--- Original message by sarno on Dec 19, 2005 12:32 PM

and sarno, fuck you

[CactusArmy]

So do only young people in Japan go crazy on clothing buys?

[dismalfuture]

Quote:

dismal, thanks for the post.

Tokyo and Osaka are the two most expensive cities in the world. What about most other Japanese cities? I would imagine that the difference in cost of living between those two cities and the suburban areas is astronomical... at least more so than urban->suburban in America.

I'm interested in your answer because I plan to live in Japan for the JET program, and may end up staying permanently.

Edited by wild_whiskey on May 9, 2006 at 12:14 AM

--- Original message by wild_whiskey on May 9, 2006 12:13 AM

I've been to Tokyo numerous times, and no other Japanese cities. Well, Yokohama and some outlaying Tokyo-metro areas, but not really. I find Tokyo to be expensive like people want to say it is, but then again it's really not scary expensive like people might think, I guess this is kind of objective too. There are some things that are cheap, some things that are expensive.

I live in Seoul right now, and it's a totally different world in terms of personal finances. I'd probably actually live more cheaply in Tokyo based on my lifestyle and tastes in things.

Other Japanese cities (it it's not Tokyo or Osaka, it's pretty much just Nagoya, Fukuoka, Sendai, Sapporo, or Niigata?) are probably cheaper as I can gather, but not day and night. I guess it's more like comparing St. Louis and San Francisco. Some stuff is cheaper, primarily rents and local public transport, but for things like food, etc, there's probably not much disparity. You get lots of upward choices though, which is why people probably think Tokyo is prohibitvely expensive. The real difference between Tokyo/Osaka and the remainder of Japan is that you miss out on most of consumer/popular culture associated with Japan if you're not there in the bustle.

Non-Tokyoites are probably most different from Tokyoites in their materialistic-ness. I guess if you live in Tokyo and walk through those major department stores, through Shinjuku, up Meiji-dori, down Omotesando through Aoyama, through Ginza, etc, it's probably not difficult to get a taste for the material this way. Peer pressure probably consumes Tokyo kids at a young age too. All the nice Japanese and European boutiques have all of their nice stuff out on display all the time and it's tempting.

Obviously, they don't have a line of Louis Vuitton, Dior, Hermes, etc boutiques lining the streets of bumfuck Japan, so the kids from those places don't really get it. A lot of them do move to Tokyo for school though and are probably sucked into it or able to laugh it off.

I once took this same college course for 2 years in a row and about 15 of my classmates every semester wre Japanese kids. A few were born and raised Tokyo kids, maybe a fwe more were Tokyo transplants, and then the remainder would be Kansai and Chugoku, or Tohoku/Hokkaido. Most of the Tokyo kids were pretty acquainted with brand names, dressing themselves 'individually,' and usually sported some nice gear. I had a girlfriend once who walked around with like 2 schoolbooks and a huge makeup kit inside this Hermes bag she used as her school bookbag. Tokyo girl, through and through. The rest of the kids though, they were really from some other Japanese world it seemed like, since they weren't up on gear and trendy stuff. For a lot of them, a minidisc player or a digital camera was pretty far out and not many had stuff like that.

You get the direct-from Europe import gear at bigger Tokyo and Osaka department stores. Maybe a few high-end Japanese brands like 45rpm, the Commes labels, etc, in the same kind of stores, ie. Takashimaya, Isetan, Marui, Tokyu, etc. For the smaller non-Tokyo dept stores, you're going to see more Japanese domesticized fashion, maybe some foreign names licensed to japanese companies to sell at these kind of places. I guess this is kind of similar to the way it is in most developed countries (US, UK, etc)

Bu

[Paul T]

Don't blame the English, blame the Scots! They were imported to build the Japanese civil service and infrastructure, much as they did in England - lots of Japanse people in the 30s and 40s had Scottish nannies, too. Why else are whisky and golf so popular there?

intriguing, thought-provoking post, by the way.

Edited by Paul T on May 9, 2006 at 10:14 AM

[dismalfuture]

Quote:

Don't blame the English, blame the Scots! They were imported to build the Japanese civil service and infrastructure, much as they did in England - lots of Japanse people in the 30s and 40s had Scottish nannies, too. Why else are whisky and golf so popular there?

intriguing, thought-provoking post, by the way.

Edited by Paul T on May 9, 2006 at 10:14 AM

--- Original message by Paul T on May 9, 2006 10:12 AM

I like talking about this topic too much. I see modern Japanese society as some sort of beast that is probably not even well understood by Japanese people themselves, but there's so many genuinely good things to come out of it. Japanese people probably don't even recognize some of the stuff they do because it's so run of the mill for them, whereas we average Americans are constantly amazed. I'm not talking cell phones that have 7488423 functions, anime, cute little pieces of raw fish, or the Shibuya Q-Front building, I'm talking more along the lines of the way they appreciate a lot of old-world tradition (not Japanese tradition, but more like European styles) for some stuff and embrace things futuristic without losing step.

Do you think there were really a lot of Scottish nannies in Japan in the 30's and 40's? I kind of find that hard to imagine. Perhaps the elite ultra-rich kids like Yoko Ono or the like. But the way I see them, the Japanese weren't really in the position to go to lengths like that til the 1980's, if ever? There hasn't been any real shortage of able-bodied mothers nor were there many working females til recent years, so I don't think Japan ever even had a nanny culture. Hong Kongers started taking in Filipino nannies by the droves however, because they were allowed to by visa laws, and they were cheap.

The English were original the builders of the JR, the overland routes that are still in use today were originally designed to bring agri crops from the rural areas into the cities. This is pretty much why the Japanese drive on the left with right-hand drive cars, because had the Americans won the rail contract, then everything would've ended up our way rather than theirs. I don't doubt that they imported Scots or Irish to do the actual dirty work of building and constructing infrastructure though.

Likewise, if you've ever been to Australia, you'd see that eery resemblance between JR overland stations, Australian rail stations, and older overland English rail stations. At least I do, but then again there really aren't any overland rail stations in America anymore to compare these things to.

I think scotch whiskey, the golf, etc, those are just accessories from the previous generation that tie in with the previous generation that built the bubble economy in the 80's. This was the generation I referred to that prized the black 560SEL Benz and a gold Oyster Day-Date as signs of arrival. You know, plaid Dunhill sport jackets, a steak dinner being something of a delicacy, something along those lines. Those were all just default items 20 years ago. For their kids, people my (our?) age, those are considered tacky, and the kids turn around and buy 25000yen jeans and $600 French purses and make the Tokyo metro system look like a mini fashion show.

I actually originally started going to Japan because I was a younger kid obsessed with little Japanese cars, Hondas mainly and I get possessed and have to go all the way with my hobbies. That all blew over for as a hobby but I came to be interested in Japan by everything else that I saw there and kept going back.

I'd like to live there someday, but I don't really want to teach English nor do I want to be a salaryman/executive, so I'm either going to have to figure something else out or find someplace else to live.

You know, besides all of this that sounds bright, you still have to remember that the Japanese live in a very Western-influenced culture that means just that. It's a

[Paul T]

From about the late 1700s onwards, Scots made up a huge proportion of the British civil service, and of engineers, because the Scottish authorities had invested heavily in education.

I believe several Scots engineers went to Japan to develop the railways and teach in engineering colleges. Likewise I think the Japanese government brought in many members of the civil service, who happened to be Scots, to build up their own administration according to European practice. I'm sure there are a few books on this, it was well documented, a quick google might reveal more.

The last (ok, only) time I was in Japan I happened to be at a reception for the Prime Minster. I met a very friendly woman, in her 60s, who told me that many kids from her generation (undoubtedly, the wealthy ones), had Scottish nannies. It was very fashionable.

[super]

Very interesting stuff dismalfuture; SF def needs more content oriented posts. Took me some time to read it all haha. I remember reading about a japanese dude living in a one bedroom apartment (and an avid clothing addict) and I wondered how the hell he managed on a $19,000 salary.

[CactusArmy]

^the guy is a legend, do you have a link?

[sybaritical]

Discussions like this make it worth belonging to Supertalk.

I probably also have it in my mind that if I pay more money, I get a better product. Better materials = better finish in most things. I intend to explore that idea very soon: when I begin to feel happy with the PRPS I'm currently wearing I'll ignore the urge to go Pure blue or sugarcane or Chamara and instead fold the Uniqlo jeans I'm holding into the rotation. Loooking forward to seeing what the difference is between £10 and £200 end results.

Edited by sybaritical on May 10, 2006 at 07:46 AM

[john11f]

i think part of the premium of expensive denim is the exclusivity.

[DrugsAreBadMkay]

When 7s And Citizens Cost As Much As 45Rpm

[minya]

STOP WITH THE CAPITAL LETTERS

[Egpt]

Quote:

so seriously how long will you guys continue to pay for the high price??

--- Original message by 6MT on Dec 19, 2005 12:25 PM

until i have money to do it.

okay?

Stand tall or don't stand at all

[rnrswitch]

Until I finally realize that consumption and material goods won't complete me. AHHHH... like in Jerry Maquire.

[Joe E Taleo]

Interesting stuff dismalfuture put up in there 2 years ago. I had some similar feelings when I visited Tokyo- It felt like an old, wealthy European city (filled with Asians!) that was at the beginning of a slow decline. When you go to Seoul (just as an example of another giant Asian city), it's vibrant and dirty, with new construction constantly changing the landscape, a city that is remaking itself and reaching for the future! or something, whereas Tokyo has already reached the future, has already determined its landscape and is resigned with itself for good and bad.

Which has nothing to do with how long I will pay for high-priced jeans. I will not stop buying high-priced jeans. however, i will lessen the frequency with which I do buy these kinds of jeans.

[midnight]

I'll continue to pay the high price until they start getting made shitty. End of story.

[ADDIC]

Until the day I D-I-E. Or can't afford to.

[Ecotrons]

^same. i dont see any reason to stop

[Althis]

because if i wear the same pair of denim everyday i want to make sure it's excellent quality, also if you spend 300 on a pair of jeans that you will wear everyday you dont have to waste money on other pants/jeans so instead of buying 6 50$ pairs that are mediocre you have one 300$ pair that is exceptional

[morse9443]

Classic thread.

Your mom wears high priced jeans!!