help to identify some lvcs

[jialormee]

hi i have an old pair of lvcs that i would appreciate help identifying. the tag shows 501xx and they are a 34x34 pair.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c245/jialormee/DSC02145.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c245/jialormee/DSC02138.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c245/jialormee/DSC02135.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c245/jialormee/DSC02131.jpg

Edited by jialormee on Dec 11, 2005 at 10:18 AM

Edited by jialormee on Dec 11, 2005 at 10:21 AM

Edited by jialormee on Dec 11, 2005 at 10:24 AM

[Lex2]

Looks like '47 repros, with the jerky leather patch. What does it say on the back of the first button?

[robobeng]

i was thinking 47s as well, but then i noticed that they have a crotch rivet which 47s dont

[robobeng]

they could be 37's

[Lex2]

Ops missed that. Strange, could this be a fake?

[Lex2]

Yes but where's the buckle back? I can't make out whether there's really a crotch rivet there. Probably just the bar tack.

Edited by Lex2 on Dec 11, 2005 at 11:54 AM

[robobeng]

i think theyre 55's, and it lookslike a definite crotch rivet to me in the second pic

Edited by robobeng on Dec 11, 2005 at 11:56 AM

[Lex2]

If they were I would expect a paper patch. Looks like a jerky leather patch there. Unless it's a Made in USA model, probably released just once. Crotch rivets disappeared in the 1940s. If they were 55s they wouldn't have a crotch rivet.

Edited by Lex2 on Dec 11, 2005 at 12:01 PM

[Paul T]

Only had a reall quick look without blowing up the pix, but they look to me like covered rivets (don't have the distinctive line of stitching you get on bar tacks) (from pre 68 jeans); thjey have a shallow arcuate, which I'd expect on 60s reissues; leather patch from pre 55 jeans; crotch rivet(?) from pre 1940s jeans (haven't blown up the pic to look properly, just using my web browser). So... not totally consistent. I wonder if they might be early LVC; my initial guess would be the early 1990s 'Capital e" reissue, which were based on a generic vintage look rather than one specific year.

Be aware that some of the better fakes have a similar mix of generic features (specially that back pocket arcuate); although the fabric on these looks good. What's on the internal labels? IT would have 555 on the buttons if it was the Capital E reissue.

Edited by Paul T on Dec 11, 2005 at 02:18 PM

[Paul T]

Edited by Paul T on Dec 11, 2005 at 03:58 PM

[Lex2]

I wasn't aware there was a generic re-issue early 90s. I always thought 1996 was the first of them, with the 201xx 501 repro (Geir Tendberg/Sylvia Frattini at Levis). This looks fake to me.

[Paul T]

Yes, Levi's US (and Levi's Japan) both did reissues before the Tendberg/Frattini program, which was a joint venture between Japan Europe and the US. Capital E was, from memory, 1993 or 94.

[jialormee]

there arent any 555's on the buttons, ive checked. anyway, the material is pretty good and like how they have faded. too bad they're too big for me now.

how much do u think they could be sold for in your opinion?

[Lex2]

Could you do me a favour and check what it says on the inner tag, in particular how the washing instruction looks, and if there is a batwing logo on it. Please confirm if there are any hidden rivets in the back pocket.

Also is there a selvage thread on the inside coin pocket? This looks like an interesting specimen.

Strange no 555 though. If this were an early repro specimen it would have come out of the Valencia factory.

Thanks.

Edited by Lex2 on Dec 12, 2005 at 04:41 AM

[Paul T]

Just checked my notes. The Capital E reissue came out in 1992. It is possible it didn't have the 555 on the buttons, because they used a slightly bizarre selection of hardware. I think this is the supposed 1962 reissue - which did, inaccurately, have a leather patch. Also, on the '1962' Capital E, the thread was way too brown - I've only seen a MIB example, but I would guess the thread looks like 80s jeans. I did actually see these being produced at Valencia, and remember being disappointed they had missed the opportunity to get it right. They all came boxed (prewashed) and were expensive, not as good as the contemporary Lee reissues, and certainly nowhere near Evis quality. I can check with the archivist who has the pair about the button details, but if the internal labels look correct, I would bet that these are the Capital E.

Personally, I wouldn't pay too much for them as they're not great reissues! But if you were to auction them on the 'bay, as the first LVC ever produced, you might get someone ready to pay a premium. Thye're interesting jeans too, in that they demonstrate Cone still had shuttle looms back in 92.

[jialormee]

ive just checked the jeans and yes the jeans do have a selvege thread inside the coin pocket!

interesting as im not schooled very well in the denim department, thanks for all the help guys.

paul : how would i advertise the jeans on the bay as? i have no idea about the description and all. it would be a great help if u could help me on this aspect.

[Lex2]

Quote:

Just checked my notes. The Capital E reissue came out in 1992. It is possible it didn't have the 555 on the buttons, because they used a slightly bizarre selection of hardware. I think this is the supposed 1962 reissue - which did, inaccurately, have a leather patch. Also, on the '1962' Capital E, the thread was way too brown - I've only seen a MIB example, but I would guess the thread looks like 80s jeans. I did actually see these being produced at Valencia, and remember being disappointed they had missed the opportunity to get it right. They all came boxed (prewashed) and were expensive, not as good as the contemporary Lee reissues, and certainly nowhere near Evis quality. I can check with the archivist who has the pair about the button details, but if the internal labels look correct, I would bet that these are the Capital E.

Personally, I wouldn't pay too much for them as they're not great reissues! But if you were to auction them on the 'bay, as the first LVC ever produced, you might get someone ready to pay a premium. Thye're interesting jeans too, in that they demonstrate Cone still had shuttle looms back in 92.

--- Original message by Paul T on Dec 12, 2005 05:52 AM

This is a strange way of issuing out a repro, to have a crotch rivet on a '62 model. The leather patch is probably excusable.

There is an apocryphal story that Cone sold all their 29" looms to Japanese buyers, but I guess they kept those machines in the basement!

[Paul T]

jiamorlee, I would just paraphrase the descriptionand comments above. Take lot of pix, including the tags inside. Qualify stuff where you're not absolutely certain what they are. I would call them something like "First ever LVC 501 XX vintage repro", then go on to say how you believe these are the Capital E reissue from 1992, made in Levi's famed Valencia Road facotry, using selvage denim from Cone, who supplied the denim for Leiv's from the 1920s, made on their vintage looms blah blah. Describe the features - red line selvage, covered rivets, crotch rivet... and tell people that the jeans predated the creation of the LVC line and that they're very rarely seen.

I think all the above is fair and reasonable. You don't have to say that they didn't get it right first time around! (Actually, they didn't get it right second time around either, if I recall - the 201 had a leather patch on the next reissues).

[Lex2]

Actually that was a 501 re-issued as a Lot 201xx. Classic cinchback, with suspender buttons removed, and hidden back pockets, i.e. the '37 501. And yes, a leather patch instead of a cloth patch.

Subsequent (not all) '47 repros had double sided tabs as well.

I checked my references this afternoon and it is mentioned of a 502 replica issued by Levis Strauss in Japan in 1987, predating even the Capital E issue in 1992. I have never seen such jeans, though, nor was I able to get more information on it. I believe that was the first re-issue of a pair of jeans in the Levis stable.

Edited by Lex2 on Dec 12, 2005 at 02:30 PM

[Paul T]

I think you might have seen that mentioned in a book called Denim. The 502 replica was a Japan-only reissue, using denim from Kurabo - at the time, Cone's looms were still down in the basement. Somewhere I have the names of the guys who oversaw the reissue.

The '201 reissue' was apparently fairly close to a 1937 501. The real thing would have had a linen patch, and different (I would say nicer) denim - very slubby... it's what they used as the insipration for the look of the Red range that inspired Type 1.

[Lex2]

Quote:

I think you might have seen that mentioned in a book called Denim. The 502 replica was a Japan-only reissue, using denim from Kurabo - at the time, Cone's looms were still down in the basement. Somewhere I have the names of the guys who oversaw the reissue.

The '201 reissue' was apparently fairly close to a 1937 501. The real thing would have had a linen patch, and different (I would say nicer) denim - very slubby... it's what they used as the insipration for the look of the Red range that inspired Type 1.

--- Original message by Paul T on Dec 12, 2005 02:37 PM

Yes that was one of the books that mentioned it. I haven't seen it referenced anywhere else (the 502 re-issue).

I have always been perplexed about the 201 re-issue, the fact that it was so close to a '37 501 but was given a 201 XX Lot no. Being the budget version, the real 201 probably would have had a 9 oz weight, but by 1915 the Amoskeag Mill had ceased production for Levis, so synthetic indigo Cone Mill fabrics must have been used as well. I am not sure if the denim is actually all that different to a 501, though. When you say "nice", "very slubby" denim are you generally referring to the stuff Cone Mills (or Amoskeag, natural indigo) was supplying to Levis during the time?

Edited by Lex2 on Dec 12, 2005 at 02:55 PM

[Paul T]

501 was Amoskeag fabric, until the 20s. 201 was the same weight as the 501, but unspecified supplier. The 1920s and 1930s 201 had a reallty nice greenish fabric, that being cheaper was slubbier than the stuff Cone was supplying (of course, the 201 could also have used Cone fabric, just a cheaper line, LS&CO records don't say). it was this cheaper slubbier fabric that inspired the Red. For the 201 reissue of 2000 or so, they did a good job of reproducing the look. Amoskeag, by the way, were still producing fabric for Leiv's until 1922 or so - between 1915 and 1922 or so they probably used denim from both, from 1922 Cone was the exclusive supplier.

Anyway, enuff historical blah. The 2000-ish 201 reissue is my favourite LVC. Unfortunately, the first examples of the spring 2006 201 reissue are another fuckup, with a 1960s style arcuate...

One reason to avoid that first '201' reissue - apparently Eric Clapton is a fan and buys them up whenever he sees them...

[Lex2]

Interesting (Clapton being a fan). A 1960s arcuate on a 201 seems a bit extreme. Do you know if they used a single prong or two prong buckle back on the reissue?

Edited by Lex2 on Dec 12, 2005 at 03:11 PM

[6MT]

here u go, easy viewing

[jialormee]

6MT : thx for your help posting these pics. i still dont know how to do them

and thanks guys for all your truly extensive knowlege about denim.

respect!

[singlet2]

I have the first 201xx( I believe) with the leather patch. The cinch has no prongs, it is silver colored metal and just has a bar that the cloth folds into. I have the earlier one -pocket cinch back and that buckle has little teeth.

[Serge d Nimes]

I have a pair of 502s that I have tried to flog non ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7748292212&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEUS%3AIT&rd=1

Carpe Denim! (not the jean brand silly!)