Levi's takes on Japanese Denim Resellers and Manufacturers

[airfrogusmc]

What you maybe aren't aware of is that a central part of Japanese culture engrained from the time of the Samurai is to emulate i.e. to look at something and take the next step. Example 1: the Samurai sword, based on the straight Chinese sword, given a curvature by the Samurai to aid in cutting. Example 2: the Japanese wood plane. 100% based on the Chinese wood plane, modified in having no handles, just a plain oak body and the other major difference, used on the pull stroke rather than push.

This is the Japanese way, culture if you like. The Samurai may be no more, but they once ruled the country and engrained their teachings to the masses. Ironically it may seem, the Japanese detest fakes with a passion. These jeans though are considered parodies which appeals to the quirky Japanese sense of humour.

They were simply recreating the jeans of the 40's, 50's and 60's. As someone mentioned way earlier in this thread, when this was happening in the late 70's, LVC didn't even exist then. What the Japanese boutique denim manufacturers were and continue to do is no different to all the companies that lovingly re-create A2 leather jackets with deadstock talon zippers and the the rest of the works that makes them true histrorically accurate recreations. So you see, there was no malice involved and this is probably why many of us here recognise that while Levi's are doing might be 100% within the law, it somehow just doesn't feel right.

*edit* and on top if that, it remains to be seen if the contested trademarks are all registered by Levi's in Japan.

If these original jacket companies were still in business like Dubow or Roughwear they'd be going after these repro companies just like Levis is going after the jeans companies. All these companies needed to do is contact Levis and get permission to use their trade marked arcuate. If levis wouldn't let them do it well end of story make jeans that don't have it or face the music if you decide to proceed.

[swisloc]

They were simply recreating the jeans of the 40's, 50's and 60's. As someone mentioned way earlier in this thread, when this was happening in the late 70's, LVC didn't even exist then. What the Japanese boutique denim manufacturers were and continue to do is no different to all the companies that lovingly re-create A2 leather jackets with deadstock talon zippers and the the rest of the works that makes them true histrorically accurate recreations. So you see, there was no malice involved and this is probably why many of us here recognise that while Levi's are doing might be 100% within the law, it somehow just doesn't feel right.

it's not about "malice" it's about business. It's not a good business practice [for levis] to start letting companies do this if they have a right to stop it, whether the companies meant to go after levis or not. levis doesn't care about the capital these companies generate, it's a drop in the bucket to them; this is about business principles alone.

[Double D]

People need to bear in mind that in the defence of Levis it's a corporation, not a privately owned company. To paraphrase a bit of The Corporation: It is legally impossible in corporate law for a corporation to act in a way that will lower profits to it's shareholders, unless it can be proved to actually draw greater profits through good publicity.

An example citied was British Gas, who in the last 10 years or so took on a nice, environmentally friendly image. The only reason they could do that is that their new CEO managed to put the case forward that the profits gained from their better image outweighed the losses from more ethical trading policy. Remember the scene from Fight Club where Edward Norton describes his safety assessment job? That's real.

Basically, Levis' accounting department is pretty much bound by corporate rules to do this, unless public opinion against their actions was so massive that it could be proved to harm sales of Levis and LVC.

Example: If puppies blood made the indigo dying process cheaper, and it transpired that the money gained from killing puppies was greater than the money lost from pro-puppy-rights people not buying Levis, they'd start using puppy blood in the dying process.

[ericdw]

since it looks like tomorrow might be the last time we can get these jeans easily, is everyone going to buy tonight?

[Lars]

I think these companies should just stop to export to america and take their chances in their own court that hopefully will see that there are no confusing the arcs. Sda may be in trouble though, but sam and SC should be in the clear.

I'm getting my sam 710 19oz sent from japan tomorrow.Yay.

[synthi]

If these original jacket companies were still in business like Dubow or Roughwear they'd be going after these repro companies just like Levis is going after the jeans companies. All these companies needed to do is contact Levis and get permission to use their trade marked arcuate. If levis wouldn't let them do it well end of story make jeans that don't have it or face the music if you decide to proceed.

That's a fair point I hadn't considered.

it's not about "malice" it's about business. It's not a good business practice [for levis] to start letting companies do this if they have a right to stop it, whether the companies meant to go after levis or not. levis doesn't care about the capital these companies generate, it's a drop in the bucket to them; this is about business principles alone.

Agreed however to me it seems their attention has been focussed since BIG & SE set up shop and were beginning to get publicity. I know Kiya suggested the case took months to prepare but still that's my impression.

[Charlie Delta]

I'm with synthi on this particular point, when people first started "reproducing" Levi's jeans, they originally did this because they couldn't find what they wanted in what Levi's was offering at that moment. So they decided that they would then make these jeans for themselves and a select group of people. They tried to get to close as the originals as they possibly could, this included all possible details. (Or so the legend goes....) This idea caught on and more and more people where getting interested in these "reproductions of jeans from way back when" and more people started wanting them so more people started making them. (Hell, even Levi's jumped on the "raw" bandwagon with LVC)

People started to try to get closer and closer to actual original Levi's jeans and as up till now Levi's didn't do anything about these companies using Levis like arcuates, tabs, leather labels or pocket flashers (Airfrog, it is indeed a bit funny that none of them ever have seemed to ask Levi's if it was ok to do these kind of homages), they pushed it further and further, and the jeans started resembling Levi's jeans more and more. Evis obviously pushed it too far with their red "Evis" tab, but to this day they're still using it in Japan.

There wouldn't have been a need for these companies to start making these jeans if Levi's hadn't lowered their standards so terribly. In fact these "repro makers" showed a love for the whole jeans making proces that the people at Levi's could probably learn alot from. (I do realise that this situation has nothing to do with love)

In my opinion Levi's should've taken action alot earlier (maybe they tried but couldn't get anything done in Japan, I don't know), than it also would've been alot clearer for these "repro" companies where that line they couldn't cross was exactly. I mean, next thing we know Levi's might make a problem out of redline selvedge because red was originaly the colour of the selvedge on the fabric destined for Levi's. I feel that in a way a pocket tab has become just as standard as the colour of the selvedge line, it's just a part of this type of jeans!

But I still think Levi's is already pretty quick with this considering that these jeans only started coming into the states quite recently. Maybe that was their reason to take action now, because it seems that these japanese companies are starting to explore ground outside Japan. I was quite surprised when I saw a small article about SugarCane in some European style magazine, that had pictures of the SugarCane's with the arcuates clearly visible. I could imagine Levi's legal team, not being amused by that kind of press.

Anyway, I'm rambling again, and should go to bed, nothing I'm saying hasn't been said before so I'll stop. One final thing, after reading through these 25 pages it was good to read the original post from Kiya again, to get the facts straight!

I have mixed feelings about this whole situation and as I said before hope that Levi's is only after their trademarks and not the destruction of the parties involved.

[swisloc]

Agreed however to me it seems their attention has been focussed since BIG & SE set up shop and were beginning to get publicity. I know Kiya suggested the case took months to prepare but still that's my impression.

while the publicity of SE and BIG may have turned Levis head ever so slightly, they have been in tune to this for some time. they cracked down on Evis(u) in the 90's, they cracked down on SugarCane last year and made them take off their backpocket stitching, and it was only a matter of time before they got to the other brands. Of course BIG and SE being present in the two imporatant cities (New York, for obvious reasons, and San Fransisco, their corporate headcourters) probably didn't help the situation.

[Charlie Delta]

they cracked down on Evis(u) in the 90's, they cracked down on SugarCane last year and made them take off their backpocket stitching, and it was only a matter of time before they got to the other brands.

But the Evis thing was long ago, why didn't they continue back then to show that they meant bussiness? I think alot of these younger companies saw that they weren't that hard on Evis afterall and decided to see how far they could stretch it themselves.

If I'm not mistaken SC only had to take off the stitching, but could leave on the tag.

Levi's hasn't been sending out clear signals.

Still, you shouldn't touch what isn't yours but Levi's hasn't been very clear about it.

I was quite a bit surprised when I read a couple of pages up a comment from the guy who actually works at Levi's saying that he brought quite a couple of pairs or "repro jeans" in for "sampling".........

[airfrogusmc]

I'm with synthi on this particular point, when people first started "reproducing" Levi's jeans, they originally did this because they couldn't find what they wanted in what Levi's was offering at that moment. So they decided that they would then make these jeans for themselves and a select group of people. They tried to get to close as the originals as they possibly could, this included all possible details. (Or so the legend goes....) This idea caught on and more and more people where getting interested in these "reproductions of jeans from way back when" and more people started wanting them so more people started making them. (Hell, even Levi's jumped on the "raw" bandwagon with LVC)

People started to try to get closer and closer to actual original Levi's jeans and as up till now Levi's didn't do anything about these companies using Levis like arcuates, tabs, leather labels or pocket flashers (Airfrog, it is indeed a bit funny that none of them ever have seemed to ask Levi's if it was ok to do these kind of homages), they pushed it further and further, and the jeans started resembling Levi's jeans more and more. Evis obviously pushed it too far with their red "Evis" tab, but to this day they're still using it in Japan.

There wouldn't have been a need for these companies to start making these jeans if Levi's hadn't lowered their standards so terribly. In fact these "repro makers" showed a love for the whole jeans making proces that the people at Levi's could probably learn alot from. (I do realise that this situation has nothing to do with love)

In my opinion Levi's should've taken action alot earlier (maybe they tried but couldn't get anything done in Japan, I don't know), than it also would've been alot clearer for these "repro" companies where that line they couldn't cross was exactly. I mean, next thing we know Levi's might make a problem out of redline selvedge because red was originaly the colour of the selvedge on the fabric destined for Levi's. I feel that in a way a pocket tab has become just as standard as the colour of the selvedge line, it's just a part of this type of jeans!

But I still think Levi's is already pretty quick with this considering that these jeans only started coming into the states quite recently. Maybe that was their reason to take action now, because it seems that these japanese companies are starting to explore ground outside Japan. I was quite surprised when I saw a small article about SugarCane in some European style magazine, that had pictures of the SugarCane's with the arcuates clearly visible. I could imagine Levi's legal team, not being amused by that kind of press.

Anyway, I'm rambling again, and should go to bed, nothing I'm saying hasn't been said before so I'll stop. One final thing, after reading through these 25 pages it was good to read the original post from Kiya again, to get the facts straight!

I have mixed feelings about this whole situation and as I said before hope that Levi's is only after their trademarks and not the destruction of the parties involved.

Coming into the US is probably what pushed their hand. Its kind of sad when you think about it but I doubt these companies ever thought they would get taken to task but with the new global market place you can't blaim Levis for cracking down. Haven't 501 RAW STFs been conituously available since the 1880s?

[Charlie Delta]

Haven't 501 RAW STFs been conituously available since the 1880s?

You're absolutely right about that but I think you know what I meant with the "jumping on the raw bandwagon" thing. I mean, Levi's was very busy with their "engineered" line when the vintage type denim started getting more popular again.

post# 200 for me, yay!

edit: wow, 26 pages in a day and a half, the future is still going strong!

[tangerine]

...

If I'm not mistaken SC only had to take off the stitching, but could leave on the tag.

Levi's hasn't been sending out clear signals...

I am pretty sure that SC had to ditch the pocket tab at the same time as the stitching...

[thatkidpercy]

wow what a read..! i'm pretty new to the japanese denim "scene" (for want of a better word) and so this probably doesn't shock me as much as it does others but still i'm surprised by the scale and speed of the action levis are taking (not to say that they aren't justified though..) i really hope that the companies involved are able to survive this and continue to produce high quality lines.

coincidentally, i had just ordered a pair of s5000bk from samurai-j.com before logging on to read this thread this morning, i wonder if i'll see them now; didn't get a conformation email or anything yet anyway. hmm... does anybody know how i stand?

[witts]

i dont get this?

AF1 > BAPESTA

levis > jap repros

???

why shouldnt we boycott levis?

[giantreptile]

wow, fastest growing thread in history!

look at it this way. at least there's tons of other brands to explore and love: apc, dior, rag and bone, 5ep, 45rpm, lee repro, and hell even LVC.

and another thing: it will potentially push the japanese repro denim phenom further underground. i remember when i had to wait tooth and nail for grandism to get their edo ai's in stock. or explain to the nice folks at history pres about sizing up to shrink down. it sure made the hunt a lot more fun!

[TaylorMADE]

I hope Levis will decide to make the Levis japan line available in the states, as most of Levis America line stinks... oh how i would love to see the fragmentxlevi's clothing at my local levis store

[fallen angels]

I hope Levis will decide to make the Levis japan line available in the states, as most of Levis America line stinks... oh how i would love to see the fragmentxlevi's clothing at my local levis store

i hope so too, the Levi products i see for sale in Taiwan and Japan are a hell of a lot nicer than the Levi products i see sold in the US. totally different styles, fits, washes. their shoes, tees, and outerwear are nice too.

[40ozprophet]

wow, fastest growing thread in history!

look at it this way. at least there's tons of other brands to explore and love: apc, dior, rag and bone, 5ep, 45rpm, lee repro, and hell even LVC.

yeah I am in total agreement with this. Adding Corpus to that list as well. I think that it is one of the most overlooked brands in this.

[snugglepony]

just checked historypreservation.com...

still selling the levi's repros, but they've pulled all of their detail photos -- only showing the jeans from the front...

[mizanation]

in protest of levi strauss, i am wearing my sugarcane 47's with red tab and arcuate.

[Ahlvahroe]

denim speakeasy it is, just PM me the password and I will have money in hand!

i had a dream last night that i went into selfedge and gave kiya some money and left, later he walked out and threw a package into the trash, and after sundown i went back and got my sugarcanes from the trash. so it'll all work out.

[gamma888]

wow... i was just at self-edge today without realizing that there was a lawsuit going on. i was just there to look for my prized canes jeans. had i known about this, i'd probably have grabbed the '47 pair, but the '66 one fitted me so well, that i just went for it... shame that it doesn't even have the red tab/arcuate anymore... i thought that it was going to be out by jan. 19th which isn't even today at all... :-(

[derek]

We never got those with the tab or arcuates Sugarcane took them off. The only sugarcanes that were a problem of the repros were the 47's with the tabs

[drofhiphopology]

last night I called self edge like 5 times asking to put then take off then put then take off then buy some samurais.

[thelion1856]

someone on here did a dig on this, support and click on the DIGG button!

http://digg.com/world_news/Levi_s_sues_American_clothing_stores_for_selling_Japanese_jeans

[YoungPunch]

I can see why levi's is doing this, but I don't like it. I think the fact that retail stores in america started opening accounts with these japanese manufacturers is what really prompted this response from levi's now. Think about it: right now there are only two or three stores in the U.S. carrying these repro brands, one or two years from now how many stores do you think would be carrying them if levi's did not crack down? Quite a few stores I would think. So Levi's didn't wait too long to do this, now is the perfect time for them to take legal action.

The thing is, some companies like warehouse for example actually produce extremely accurate reproductions of really rare and old models of levis garments that LVC would never think of producing for the mere fact that they are so obscure only a few die-hard denim and clothing fans would even consider purchasing them. This is the worst part about this lawsuit in my opinion. The only companies that would even think of providing examples of these historic clothing items will be shut down from reintroducing these products to the world.

[thelion1856]

so what if u travel out of your country and whatever country you are comming in to or leaving checks through your luggage and sees you with some samurai's or d'artisans?

will customs confinscate your jeans from you? after all they did say there is to be no shipping of these denim or selling. how do they know its your jeans? especially if you have minimal wear in them. That would suck.

Lets say you take your own denim oversea's for a europe or japan trip and come back to the US and customs says sorry you cant bring these "fake" levis back in the states even though they are yours and you had them before all this shit. what will you do? what do u say to the customs dude?

[mrip]

so what if u travel out of your country and whatever country you are comming in to or leaving checks through your luggage and sees you with some samurai's or d'artisans?

will customs confinscate your jeans from you? after all they did say there is to be no shipping of these denim or selling. how do they know its your jeans? especially if you have minimal wear in them. That would suck.

Lets say you take your own denim oversea's for a europe or japan trip and come back to the US and customs says sorry you cant bring these "fake" levis back in the states even though they are yours and you had them before all this shit. what will you do? what do u say to the customs dude?

You tell him to suck it.

[kiya]

they're going after two more brands..

these two are far less Superfuture-ish and much more Hypebeast darlings...

more info on that next week when i can talk.

Iron Heart is quickly working on releasing their new line without the arcuates, a different leather tag, and no red tab. We're looking at a February 20th release of their current line to come out without the offending accents. The Self Edge x Iron Heart jeans are still set for a first week of March release.

Imperial will no longer have the horses on their tags, new tag will be unleashed sometime in February.

Flat Head, i have no idea, i have a phone meeting with them in ten minutes that will probably last through the night. We're going to try and figure out exactly what needs to happen to their line and how quickly it can be done.

[xcoldricex]

yes they have alerted every border in the world. fuck looking for agricultural products, drugs, taxable goods, and other things at customs. the only thing that matters is jeans with tabs and arcuates. all custom patrol people are instructed to cut up denim on sight.

come on guys. it's really not that deep....