Traditional Jeans...

[cultpop 0217]

Quote:

i'm superbored.

i don't apply logic to life---my only rule.

i am not in search of authenticity.

---animal chin

--- Original message by denimdestroyedmylife on Jun 9, 2006 10:37 AM

powell peralta (and the band was pretty cool too)

i'm not a mod or a rocker. i'm a mocker.

join a cult. www.culturepopartgallery.com

[snugglepony]

Quote:

(and the band was pretty cool too)

--- Original message by cultpop 0217 on Jun 9, 2006 02:44 PM

i'm amazed you know that band...

when i was a little junior high skate rat they actually played the coffee shop near my hometown in bumfuck, minnesota. super nice guys, too.

Edited by snugglepony on Jun 9, 2006 at 02:51 PM

[Watchout Lester]

right on, the word i was looking for that whole thread was heritage. and that's important. I would much rather buy products that have withstood the test of time, for all the talk of progress and such, go listen to an old Record and tell me if it doesn't sound better than whatever fancy high tech bose speaker system with digital this and that.

Jeans are a part of americana, they are a part of our heritage, i don't mean to sound racist or like the stupid lazy american that i probably am, but it doesn't sit right that one culture can idolize another so much as to focus in the extre\me on reproducing it.

another good comparison- think of jeans almost like an old guitar.

i'd rather play one of those vintage gibson's that's all beat up and time-tested and sounds fucking amazing, then some shiny spike shaped metal guitarzzzz

[Watchout Lester]

and the animal chin reference was classic, too

[andewhall]

I was into rebuilding VW bugs for quite a few years and remember reading this article about EMPI who are a top quality manufacturer of aftermarket VW parts, anyway the parts were so superior to the ones they were using in the mexico production plant that they actually started ordering the EMPI parts for production. I always found that story really amazing. Cant beat a german made pre pre 79' bug though.

Levis built by Sugarcane anyone?

Thanks for thinking of me ddml!

EDIT: Animal Chin rules, I used to have it on video back in the eight ohs. I guess you can get in dvd now though huh.

Ande Whall Photos: http://photobucket.com/albums/y278/andewhall/

Supermarket: Ltd. Edition Black Grifters: http://www.superfuture.com/city/supertalk/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=11688

Supermarket: Ande Whall Custom Denim: http://www.superfuture.com/city/supertalk/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=12464

Edited by andewhall on Jun 9, 2006 at 03:17 PM

[airfrogusmc]

Jim, good thread and I agree. I would say exposed rivets over bartacks and hidden rivets. Levis are king. Their LVC stuff rocks; anyway the raw stuff. Levis, Harleys, old Buco or vintage flight jackets nothing like'm. Certainly not those nutty look'n Levi wanna-bees with the nutty look'n designs on the back pockets. To each thier own but they're not for me. Buckle back, exposed rivets and brace buttons 1920s blue line with a pair of vintage chucks, a vintage G-1 and a 54 Ford convertable or a 40s knuckle head now you're talk'n.

[rnrswitch]

Quote: Heritage is important to me.

Lee, Levis and Wrangler's heritage is intertwined, not only with american history, but also with street culture. From miners, cowboys, through rock goths, hip-hop and onwards.

Remember jeans have their heritage in workwear. As such jeans was designed purely on a utilitarian level, where superfluous details were removed and key points were re-enforced, hence the non-design design aesthetic. That is something that we will probably never see again.

That's why i would be so un-comfortable picking up a pair of , say 45rpms. Paying the same price as a couture piece is to me, missing the attraction of denim as much as pre-washed jeans. Denim should always be democratic.

It's just such a pity Levi replica's do better "levi's" then levis. I think Lee has always been the dark horse an i don't really know much about wrangler to comment.

I wish i had a better vocabulary. I know what i am trying to convey, but feel like i am not saying it well enough

While jeans do have their history in workwear. They were quite expensive back in the day. That is why they had to come out with the 201s, because they were cheaper and affordable. This is also the reason why people chose to wear their jeans for such a long time, because they couldn't afford to run out and buy a new pair. So just because something was workwear didn't make it cheap.

I'll give it to y'all the vintage levis are king, but for deadstock even the LVCs can't compare to some Japanese repros (actually most Japanese repros), but after wearing quality denim I would never be able to appreciate a pair of STFs (mervyns) again.

Let us not remember that the Levi's company could give rat shit about miners and the working people. All they care(d) about was profit. So if they could care less about us, then why should we care about them and serve them with loyalty.

Quote:

Edited by rnrswitch on Jun 9, 2006 at 06:14 PM

[scoon0224]

Jim, as for making all these 'knock-offs' irrelevant.

Part of the reason they are so successful is that they offer a variety (as with any other item of clothing). Levi's never made a 19oz jean that I know of, but Samurai does, and has a market for them. Levi's doesn't do natural indigo (and hasn't for how long?) but 45rpm does and has a market for them.

If they were putting out perfect repros of every model LEvi's Lee and Wrangler ever made, the repro makers would not disappear, because they offer something different. Variations on cut, weight, colour, details.

And no doubt many of these repros would still be of higher quality than even those vaunted 'vintage' jeans. I have a hard time believing that fabrics and construction in 1890 were comparable to current offerings from the likes of 45rpm and Pure Blue (or Eternal, SDA, Samurai)

[airfrogusmc]

Yeah and these Japanese companies could give a rats ass about me and you right now but if I'm gonna wear a jean thats suppose to be a vintage repro I don't want to have a modern interpretation with so called BETTER denim or better stitching I'd rather have a denim thats close in weight to the originals and patterns that are close to originals. Hey but thats just me. I don't want 21 oz denim because it aint gonna drape right. Yeah it might be strong as balls but it don't mean nothing to me and if the basic 501 wasn't still relevant why are we having this conversation. Its classic. Its survived the bell bottoms of the late 60s early 70s and the hip hop of the 80s/90s. Just like Harley and the A-2 flight jacket of the Buco motorcycle jacket. CLASSIC....And long after these Japanese companies are gone because they are mostly imitating Levis there will be still be Levis.

[digital_denim]

It's funny because Levi's does denim better but in Japan. So they will make a better product but not for their own American base but some foreign country...ironic?

[Guest]

I really didn't want to post on this thread but I figure after 40 responses, I can throw my 2 cents in there:

If it weren't for the Japanese putting American culture under a magnifying glass and literally going over the top in terms of denim appreciation, then America would still be flooded with vintage denim and deadstock, and it would be questionable as to whether or not anyone in the world was still using vintage selvage looms. Where would we be without all those vintage repros to remind us of how great jeans are made?

America may have been the pioneers, the originators of denim workwear in its purest form, but the Japanese pioneered the respect that we currently have for denim. Who else could have done that for us? I look at japanese repros as 'art imitating life'. Looking at an American repro, i still just see a big corporation taking advantage of a fad.

True vintage denim may offer a lot more in terms of being the genuine article, but in my mind, if I had a pair of really old levis, I would hesitate to wear them. It's like cracking open a really old bottle of cognac: unless I've already tasted every other kind, and know all there is to know about cognac, then i'm not really worthy to drink the best in the world, because I wouldn't have the knowledge or palette required to truly appreciate it.

I guess what I'm saying is that disrespecting japanese repros in favor of original product can be somewhat of a reckless statement. It really begs the question of how much you really know about jeans, and who you can credit with that knowledge.

2 cents.

[Yet Fung]

I really didn't want to post on this thread but I figure after 40 responses, I can throw my 2 cents in there:

If it weren't for the Japanese putting American culture under a magnifying glass and literally going over the top in terms of denim appreciation, then America would still be flooded with vintage denim and deadstock, and it would be questionable as to whether or not anyone in the world was still using vintage selvage looms. Where would we be without all those vintage repros to remind us of how great jeans are made?

America may have been the pioneers, the originators of denim workwear in its purest form, but the Japanese pioneered the respect that we currently have for denim. Who else could have done that for us? I look at japanese repros as 'art imitating life'. Looking at an American repro, i still just see a big corporation taking advantage of a fad.

True vintage denim may offer a lot more in terms of being the genuine article, but in my mind, if I had a pair of really old levis, I would hesitate to wear them. It's like cracking open a really old bottle of cognac: unless I've already tasted every other kind, and know all there is to know about cognac, then i'm not really worthy to drink the best in the world, because I wouldn't have the knowledge or palette required to truly appreciate it.

I guess what I'm saying is that talking down japanese repros in favor of original product can be somewhat of a reckless statement. It really begs the question of how much you really know about jeans, and who you can credit with that knowledge.

2 cents.

[obsessis]

LONG LIVE USA!!!

whatever. i think it is xenophobic at best. don't be mad that the japanese are making a higher quality item than levi's ever did.

[6MT]

well, i don't know about just levi's or lees, i really like my blue blood, i never really concern with the brands...if i like something i'll get it, regard less what it is.

[sneakeraddict]

Quote:

It's funny because Levi's does denim better but in Japan. So they will make a better product but not for their own American base but some foreign country...ironic?

--- Original message by digital_denim on Jun 9, 2006 09:08 PM

Yes that is true.

If I was American, I would also be worried about the fact that the LVC range is basically produced for Europe in truth. (And Japan too obviously)

I suppose in certain parts of the world quality and workmanship are basically much more respected than they are in others, while in others the price is much more important.

Britain is going the same way as America unfortunately. Look at all the British textiles and manufacturing companies that used to be proud to be "made in Britain", even our regular high street shops sold items made in Britain at 'normal' prices. Now if you want something made in Britain it will be too expensive to retail on the high stree. Marks And Spencer etc.

Now everything is being produced in the former communist block or the far east.

Even classic British companies like 'Clarks' etc are now making some of their shoes in the Far East, so the idea of a heritage brand like Levis, Wrangler, or even Clarks etc always remaining their manufacture in their home countries is now a thing of the past unfortunately.

Please click my website for some cool stuff for sale

Various brand new Edwins and new footwear UK 11 / US 12. Updated regularly.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/j-edwards/superfuture.htm

[keyko]

I suppose the Levi's factory in Northampton is the thing of the past as well. If so it is sad. I bought a pair of 501's in 1996 in Nothampton and they were a very good pair and held up very well. Now in a place where I live the basic 501 line is all made in Phillippines and they are nowere near England-made Levis.

Alien vs Predator, Freddie vs Jason, Nudie vs A.P.C.

[sneakeraddict]

HEY - I just remembered, Carhartt are still made in the US with union workers according to my inside label!

Quick Google search says they were established 1889, so at least one workwear brand has stayed true to its roots.

Is there a Carhartt vintage repro ????!!!!!

Please click my website for some cool stuff for sale

Various brand new Edwins and new footwear UK 11 / US 12. Updated regularly.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/j-edwards/superfuture.htm

[JohnW]

excellent topic. Yet Fung's post kind of sums it all up for me -

lvc are inferior to a lot of the japanese repros simply because all the care and love and craftsmanship that was put into true vintage levis is missing in lvc. it's the repros from japan that now bear this craftsmanship and care.

it's not just the original product that's being reproduced in Japanese repros, it's the ethos.

to me, it really doesn't matter where a product is made or what tag is on the back pocket, so long as it is made well by people who care about what they are making.

but if you are concerned about home-produced products, why not take the time to look more closely at smaller companies making home-made products for all the right reasons, rather than being lazy and blinkered by the labels of massive corporations, whose 'authenticity' is now just a marketing ploy rather than anything genuine.

Edited by JohnW on Jun 10, 2006 at 02:36 AM

[red]

Quote:

HEY - I just remembered, Carhartt are still made in the US with union workers according to my inside label!

Quick Google search says they were established 1889, so at least one workwear brand has stayed true to its roots.

Is there a Carhartt vintage repro ????!!!!!

--- Original message by sneakeraddict on Jun 10, 2006 02:32 AM

are you sure about this? last time i checked, carhartts were made by non-white people.

Edited by red on Jun 10, 2006 at 02:46 AM

[red]

Quote:

Quote:

It's funny because Levi's does denim better but in Japan. So they will make a better product but not for their own American base but some foreign country...ironic?

--- Original message by digital_denim on Jun 9, 2006 09:08 PM

Yes that is true.

If I was American, I would also be worried about the fact that the LVC range is basically produced for Europe in truth. (And Japan too obviously)

I suppose in certain parts of the world quality and workmanship are basically much more respected than they are in others, while in others the price is much more important.

Britain is going the same way as America unfortunately. Look at all the British textiles and manufacturing companies that used to be proud to be "made in Britain", even our regular high street shops sold items made in Britain at 'normal' prices. Now if you want something made in Britain it will be too expensive to retail on the high stree. Marks And Spencer etc.

Now everything is being produced in the former communist block or the far east.

Even classic British companies like 'Clarks' etc are now making some of their shoes in the Far East, so the idea of a heritage brand like Levis, Wrangler, or even Clarks etc always remaining their manufacture in their home countries is now a thing of the past unfortunately.

--- Original message by sneakeraddict on Jun 10, 2006 01:48 AM

haha. thats funny. me and obsessis where just discussing this kind of stuff.

[sneakeraddict]

Quote:

Quote:

HEY - I just remembered, Carhartt are still made in the US with union workers according to my inside label!

Quick Google search says they were established 1889, so at least one workwear brand has stayed true to its roots.

Is there a Carhartt vintage repro ????!!!!!

--- Original message by sneakeraddict on Jun 10, 2006 02:32 AM

are you sure about this? last time i checked, carhartts were made by non-white people.

Edited by red on Jun 10, 2006 at 02:46 AM

--- Original message by red on Jun 10, 2006 02:45 AM

I thought America had a population of black, asian, Indian/ Indigineous people, so to say that because Carhartt are made by 'non white people', certainly does not mean they are not made in America.

Please click my website for some cool stuff for sale

Various brand new Edwins and new footwear UK 11 / US 12. Updated regularly.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/j-edwards/superfuture.htm

[red]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

HEY - I just remembered, Carhartt are still made in the US with union workers according to my inside label!

Quick Google search says they were established 1889, so at least one workwear brand has stayed true to its roots.

Is there a Carhartt vintage repro ????!!!!!

--- Original message by sneakeraddict on Jun 10, 2006 02:32 AM

are you sure about this? last time i checked, carhartts were made by non-white people.

Edited by red on Jun 10, 2006 at 02:46 AM

--- Original message by red on Jun 10, 2006 02:45 AM

I thought America had a population of black, asian, Indian/ Indigineous people, so to say that because Carhartt are made by 'non white people', certainly does not mean they are not made in America.

--- Original message by sneakeraddict on Jun 10, 2006 02:56 AM

oh man. i need to think more.

but really, do they make it in the U.S.? im pretty sure i didnt buy a jacket because it was made by chinese.

[obsessis]

yep, it's unfortunate that american workers won't work for wages that others will and that some companies don't care about quality. the levi's brand went to shit, it's not like they moved plants and kept producing good jeans.j

levi's special japanese brand makes some really decent jeans, much better than LVC or the ones sold in america. levi's cares more about japan and knows they care more about nice jeans.

i'll check my carhartt zip hoody and see where it's produced. i don't give a shit either way. if they made jeans that were really dark and fit nice i'd buy them for work wear.

[cheapmuthafukr]

so what have we concluded here? anything?

at this point in time, id say a pair of sugarcanes or buzz ricksons are more authentic than anything levis or lee put out. the only really "authentic" jeans are 13mwz, since the design and cut is the same as it was in 47 when they came out. the indigo has gone to shit tho.

authenticity is a good ideal, but in todays world it is hard to find. personally, id love to only support american companies, but i would buy a japanese repro before lvc, or levis. why? they are a better product. they are as authentic as you can get today.

shit...

[denimdestroyedmylife]

the problem isn't that "american workers won't work for wages that others will" but that companies have no qualms about exploiting poor people in EPZs and consumers have no problem supporting this system.

Using chain stitch, your train of jeans is fading wind.

[obsessis]

yes, because they can pay 100 workers in china a lot less than 100 workers in america. if the workers in the US would take a wage equal to the people overseas where they moved the plant i doubt they would have done it. the exploitation has to do with the costs of production and the wages directly impact them.

[denimdestroyedmylife]

i'd pay extra for a pair of jeans made by virginal triplet girls during the summer solstice.

Using chain stitch, your train of jeans is fading wind.

[obsessis]

white girls, right? they better be made in the USA also.

[red]

i want jeans made by unicorns.

[denimdestroyedmylife]

let's make it happen

Using chain stitch, your train of jeans is fading wind.