Edmonton X Sugarcane (let's try this again)

[Yet Fung]

I need help from fellow Edmontonians. I'm currently in talks with History Preservation to try and get some love from Sugarcane up in Canada, and I'm starting in E-Town. Right now, not a lot of places I've checked know about the brand, and some went on to say that they go based on customer/employee requests.

I'm in the process of setting up talks with Holt, and Singer, but unfortunately I haven't got any samples to show, and without samples or hype, I don't believe anyone will bother to hear me out. The initial target is premium retail chains such as the above, as well as Gravity Pope, Urban, High Grade and Underground (Yes I realize that many of the stores are in Edmonton/Calgary only but I still have a full-time job!). Of course stores like Queue and Foosh are on the list but larger, more national chains fall under higher priority because that will guarantee more exposure and a larger order.

Hopefully I'll be able to procure some samples/catalogues within the next week or two but until then, I'm left with nothing but words and pictures, which in my mind is kind of weak. I'm not even getting my own pair of Edo Ai's for another 3 months!

If anyone is all about having Sugarcane retailers in Edmonton, or even in Calgary, Vancouver and Toronto, please put the word out. If there are already retail outlets that are doing it in Vancouver and Toronto, then my apologies. Anyways, next time you're looking at a pair of jeans and a salesperson asks if you need any help, ask him/her if their store carries Sugarcanes, or plans on it.

And that's about it, I appreciate all the help I can get!

[HEWSINATOR]

The problem would be the cost, for me atleast. Imagine the prices at stores like that if regular dry Nudies are around $200. A pair of 1947s would be atleast $300, and thus not economical for the few that would like these now. Is there really a market for them in Edmonton? I do not think so, there is really no appeal to them for the masses (that frequent shops like this) I do not know...

[Dogfarm]

I disagree. I think there is a market for them in Edmonton. I think your best bet is Singer, maybe one of the new Henry stores? 1947 hardwash I think would be the easiest sell to the uneducated in denim and then go from there. The edo and okinawa are so hot.

japanese denim has become a simulacra of americana. Initially being a faithful reporduction but becoming something else, independant from the original, a true reflection of postmodernity.

[Guest]

I bought a pair of RRDS the other day for $299, and Da'mage, Diesel, True Religion, Seven For All Mankind, Evisu and PRPS all have jeans selling above $300 (I probably missed a couple of brands), and all in the stores I referred to in the above post. Gravity Pope carries Stussy and Acne as well. I think the cheaper (sub-300 down to 160 ) lines are still expensive, don't get me wrong. But I don't think we would have ever even seen jeans that cost this much in any store unless there was a market for them, and being that jean prices here are already twice that than in some US cities, selling Sugarcanes at the standard suggested retail price doesn't seem so far-fetched to me. I doubt anyone thought there was a market for Nudies or PRPS either, until a store decided to carry them.

Keep in mind, that we're not trying to flood the streets here, or appeal to the masses. The aim is to establish and support the brand, not to cheapen it's image.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that few people would like them either. At then end of the day everyone has individual taste. The point is that we've seen massive growth not only in price, but selection, and I see no reason why adding one more to the roster would be so wrong.

[Yet Fung]

I also disagree, especially after having bought a pair of RRDS for $319 on friday at Holt! Jean prices in Edmonton are well above what they are in other cities, yet people still buy them, and not only that, but we're seeing more brands than ever.

I spoke with the owner of the West Ed Singer this afternoon, but like I said before, without samples, and maybe a little bit of hype, all he could say is, "bring by some samples and we'll take it from there", which by all rights, is fair, because they're busy with renovations, expansion, and they've pretty much already done their purchasing for this season. They have so many pairs of PRPS it's sick.

[Becks23]

have you done the math to see what retail will be after importation/shipping etc? I have a number in my head and if retail exceeds this number I'd be passing on them...

...not sure how many people are in the "if I can get it for cheaper off the net, then I will" boast like myself.

[HEWSINATOR]

That is what I mean. I do not see it happening, and I do not see the "scene" here supporting it, yet. The thing is, I think people that would buy them are the people on here, who will buy DS jeans for 130 US from online sites (there is one I often go to), in oppose to 300. That is just crazy.

Something else of note, is do thay have a tonne of PRPS because they have not sold a pair, or because they need so many to keep up?

[Guest]

Currently I'm just in the process of drumming up interest in the product, I discussed the range of pricing here in edmonton with the gentleman over at history preservation, and in his mind he didn't see a problem with converting suggested retail pricing. It's definitely something that will have to be addressed with store owners/buyers. Shipping/importation will most likely be less expensive per unit if you are shipping a large quantity, will it not? Plus I'm sure the rules are different when applied to a business-to-business transaction.

My pair of Edo Ai's will most likely fall just shy of $360 after shipping is accounted for. I won't say for certain but I imagine that stores that are buying larger orders (in the range of $4000 to $10000) at wholesale, can offer the product at $350 which by no means undercuts the online product, and will still bring in enough profit to account for shipping. This is all assuming that the american pricing stays where it is now. It has been known to rise with demand.

A lot of the denim that is really overpriced right now in comparison to US counterparts are more mainstream couture denim like Sevens, and Rock & Republic. My cousin in Houston says the prices are double here what they are down there. Who knows, maybe he's suffering from heat stroke. I may not have said it before

I agree that if you can get it cheaper online, you might pursue that option. But I think that many people are still hesitant to buy clothes (especially jeans) online without first having tried them on. Not everybody knows that dry denim can be shrunk to fit, and maybe not everyone wants to shrink them. In either case, having the product in stores is still an ideal situation, because of the awareness it raises to those people who don't know the brand exists at all.

At the end of the day, I think demand will dictate whether or not the price is reasonable.

[Yet Fung]

Currently I'm just in the process of drumming up interest in the product, I discussed the range of pricing here in edmonton with the gentleman over at history preservation, and in his mind he didn't see a problem with converting suggested retail pricing. It's definitely something that will have to be addressed with store owners/buyers. Shipping/importation will most likely be less expensive per unit if you are shipping a large quantity, will it not? Plus I'm sure the rules are different when applied to a business-to-business transaction.

My pair of Edo Ai's will most likely fall just shy of $360 after shipping is accounted for. I won't say for certain but I imagine that stores that are buying larger orders (in the range of $4000 to $10000) at wholesale, can offer the product at $350 which by no means undercuts the online product, and will still bring in enough profit to account for shipping. This is all assuming that the american pricing stays where it is now. It has been known to rise with demand.

A lot of the denim that is really overpriced right now in comparison to US counterparts are more mainstream couture denim like Sevens, and Rock & Republic. My cousin in Houston says the prices are double here what they are down there. Who knows, maybe he's suffering from heat stroke.

I agree that if you can get it cheaper online, you might pursue that option. That may apply to many brands, but not as much with Sugarcanes. I think that many people are still hesitant to buy clothes (especially jeans) online without first having tried them on anyways(unlike us). Other than maybe an auction, where else would I be able to get a pair for $130?

And as for Henry Singer carrying PRPS, I don't care whether or not they ever sell a pair, it is obvious they don't need their customers telling them it's a good brand. They support it because they believe the product speaks for itself. I think the same would apply to any consumer looking for a new pair of jeans: If the product doesn't speak for itself, it has no right being on the shelf in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, there's valid points being made, but the 'scene' in Edmonton, when you get down to it, is really expensive already.

[Becks23]

Just in response to where Sugarcane in North America stands vs. Sugarcane bought from Japan through a forwarding service (i.e. BidService)... I was quoted for one pair of 1-wash 47's at $187 USD shipped to my door (includes EVERYTHING).

which is roughly $211 CND (slightly more if you are transfering CND funds to your Paypal acct due to Paypals crappier rate).

130 USD might be possible if you lived in Japan, but I doubt it if you live outside of Japan.

[partytaco]

so you can't get Sugarcanes in NY and yes maybe one boutique carrying them here would be nice for the one boutiques worth of people who would actually give a shit but honestly Sugarcanes in Edmonton...where the hell is that anyway??...Mexico??...seriosuly buy the pair you want on History Preservation and then really sit down and think I am way to wrapped up in thinking everyone wants what i want...they don't and frankly i'm happy with that. sometimes i think this board distorts what people actually think is selling like crazy...just because 50 people on here know what sugarcanes are and are willing to pay $300 for a pair of highrise 40's or 50's repros doesn't mean that slightly hip common man is...especially the ones from edmonton.

[Becks23]

i agree with partytaco... i mean anytime you look at the preferences/likes of any forum you have to proceed with caution. I mean any board is a conglomeration of people who have (somewhat) the same likes/dislikes and tastes and don't necessarily extrapolate over to the common public

[HEWSINATOR]

OK, I exagerated a bit, you can get SSDS for 139 USD shipped.

I guess this is all what I am trying to say, just because it seems popular here, does not mean it will be in our city. I finally convinced one friend to try Nudies after 6 months of convincing, have fun with repros, and he is a fashion forward kinda guy.

[PG2G]

I don't really see what you have to gain from wasting time trying to convince stores to carry a brand that you have no vested interest in and already know how to obtain.

[Guest]

Totally fair comments. I for one agree it's tough convincing people, especially in Edmonton of all places (which is in Canada, just north of Washington and Idaho, but good guess anyways Taco, we have a place nearby called San Gudo too. You'd know Edmonton, if you knew who Wayne Gretzky was or what Oil Sand is, but otherwise it wouldn't be any different than Edmonton, Kentucky).

And yes, the ones on History Preservation are repros, but that doesn't constitute the entire Sugarcane catalogue, History Preservation sells the repros, because that's they're business, vintage clothing. Or am I mistaken?

And, again, yes, we would be some of the few people willing to trust a brand that we discuss amongst ourselves and are willing to purchase online for 300 dollars, just for the kicks of trying new jeans out.

And no, as of yet, I have nothing financially to gain, by trying to convince stores to carry Sugarcanes. I don't think that's a good reason to push jeans, but it can be a good reason nonetheless.

Nudies may not be popular to your fashion-forward friend, Hew, but nonetheless, the stores carry them. The support is there, and the popularity, whether it be a result of many stores carrying them or many consumers seeking them, will determine itself over time. You either buy what the stores sell, or the stores stock what you want to buy. It goes both ways.

In the end, I just think it's a really great product. It has large brand potential and looking at the fabric, and the detailing, it only seems right to want a pair.

Anyways, I didn't mean to start some kind of argument over whether or not they will sell. I was really just asking that if you liked the product, ask stores for it, so they'll know that there are people out there who support it. It just didn't occur to me that stores should only carry product that will sell based on mass popularity. I didn't realize that was a reason to buy/sell jeans.

[Yet Fung]

Totally fair comments. I for one agree it's tough convincing people, especially in Edmonton of all places (which is in Canada, just north of Washington and Idaho, but good guess anyways Taco, we have a place nearby called San Gudo too. You'd know Edmonton, if you knew who Wayne Gretzky was or what Oil Sand is, but otherwise it wouldn't be any different than Edmonton, Kentucky).

And yes, the ones on History Preservation are repros, but that doesn't constitute the entire Sugarcane catalogue, History Preservation sells the repros, because that's they're business, vintage clothing. Or am I mistaken?

And, again, yes, we would be some of the few people willing to trust a brand that we discuss amongst ourselves and are willing to purchase online for 300 dollars, just for the kicks of trying new jeans out.

And no, as of yet, I have nothing financially to gain, by trying to convince stores to carry Sugarcanes. I don't think that's a good reason to push jeans, but it can be a good reason nonetheless.

Nudies may not be popular to your fashion-forward friend, Hewsinator, but nonetheless, the stores carry them. The support is there, and the popularity, whether it be a result of many stores carrying them or many consumers seeking them, will determine itself over time. You either buy what the stores sell, or the stores stock what you want to buy. It goes both ways.

And Taco, I'm not wrapped up in pushing what I like on other people. In fact, I do the exact opposite for a living. It just so happens that I'm doing this for the fun of it.

In the end, I just think it's a really great product. It has large brand potential and looking at the fabric, and the detailing, it only seems right to want a pair. What can I say? I think they're hot, and I don't really care what the general public thinks, or what they'll buy into, I kind of just like telling people about these really cool jeans that have retail opportunity attached to them.

Anyways, I didn't mean to start some kind of argument over whether or not they will sell. I was really just asking that if you liked the product, ask stores for it, so they'll know that there are people out there who support it. It just didn't occur to me that stores should only carry product that will sell based on mass popularity. I didn't realize that was a reason to buy/sell jeans.

[Dogfarm]

I hate when forums turn into the comments I have seen on here. I say fuck elitists. Sure sugar cane are great jeans but as soon as someone want's to try and educate the masses about them everyone is all down on the idea. It is the whole ideology where people think something is cool until someone else knows about it. I would rather try and teach a group of people about buying quality jeans rather than overpriced jeans.

So what it took you a while to convince your friend that nudie jeans are great. Maybe he had his head up his ass and did not know the earmarks of quality denim, maybe you were not eloquant enough explaining them. For what ever reason this does not prove any point. I say if Yet Fung wants to try and teach Edmonton about quality denim as opposed to overpriced denim more power to him. Everyone needs side projects in their life that they can be passionate about and I say more power to him, fuck the nay sayers.

japanese denim has become a simulacra of americana. Initially being a faithful reporduction but becoming something else, independant from the original, a true reflection of postmodernity.

[PG2G]

To be fair, I think its up to the retailers, not the OP, to determine whether or not there is a market for Sugercanes or not. All he can do is go and show them off, which is fine.

I'm just wondering what he hopes to gain by doing History Preservation's job.

Edited by PG2G on Apr 25, 2006 at 06:26 PM

[denimdestroyedmylife]

Free canes?

[nairb49]

^^ I'll take two.

I think the problem with *most* retailers, especially like Holt's etc, are really not interested in carrying a product that will "speak for itself".

IMO(no hate), I think you're wrong about PRPS and the reason stores bought the line. It would certainly seem to me like they were hopping on the True Religion bandwagon of ripped/distressed and hoped to pop off a few pairs of jeans at 300 a piece, but were A)-too late, -underestimated the majority of consumer's vanity in displaying a noticeable, expensive logo, which PRPS lacks.

Although I would love to see more appreciation for quality denim, I don't see it happening on the semi-large scale basis you seem to be shooting for.

Either way, best of luck.

nairb49

[Guest]

Well to be perfectly honest, I ordered my jeans, and after giving them my address, they asked me what the market was like in Edmonton.

I said it was kind of a tough market, in that Edmontonians don't really trust anything that hasn't already been proven, that being said, we do have our fair share of expensive jeans, and it seems that the number of brands keeps growing ( I almost was convinced after christmas that Edmonton had had enough of the expensive jean craze when I saw the 50-75% sales at Underground and High Grade)

I offered to help expose the brand, if they liked, and they expressed interest in the idea. So i compiled a list and a profile of stores and they gave the go-ahead with putting the feelers out on stores (subject to my own strategy), with the promise that we would soon be in contact to see how it was coming. This is not something that could easily get off the ground, and I don't expect more than a few stores to carry the product. My intent on approaching stores, is to determine who buys product based on popularity, and who buys based on personal taste.

Like I said, I volunteered to help out, it's not the first time I've done it with a company, anyone interested in souping up their RX-8 please go visit www.canzoomer.com! My personal interest in cars led me to be an employee for those guys and it was a blast, even though the pay was miserable. But then again, even Formula 1 teams rely heavily on volunteer-work. As for History Preservation, we will see how my services pan out. They are super busy down there, Sugarcane demand is ramping up. However, I don't expect anything in return, simply because I believe that it would just drive me to seek every nook and cranny to shove a pair of jeans in, and that is not my intent. I just like seeing good companies with strong product do well. I'm also interested in either pursuing my own venture in the future, whether that be retail or manufacturing, will really be determined by my experience with Sugarcanes.

I'm not too sure what more I can say about all of this, maybe it was a poor idea to divulge all that has been going on. I do plan on attempting further exposure than just Edmonton. Maybe Vancouver, Toronto and Calgary have more progressive consumers, but like I said earlier, I live in Edmonton, and I have a full-time job already, so it's only natural for me to start here, and move outwards. I don't like to believe that just because I live in Edmonton, doesn't mean I don't know how to shop, or pick out nice clothes.

Anyways, I appreciate all of your comments, both positive and negative. My take on it is, 'nothing ventured, nothing gained'. I sincerely apologize if I gave anyone a bad impression, especially other Edmontonians. I love nothing more than exclusivity too, but I guess I just wanted to see if I could apply everything I've learned in the search for it too!

[Yet Fung]

Well, we will see when I meet with them I suppose. As for PRPS not looking expensive, I would beg to differ. The contruction and quality of product as a whole and even in it's details and wash are more justified in pricing than many other of the brands we are used to seeing. And I think the logo is absolutely first-rate. I'm no logo expert, but I think we can all admit to being logo junkies at one point or another in our lives.

So there was a little inquiry as to my dealings with history preservation. To be perfectly honest, I ordered my jeans, and after giving them my address, they asked me what the market was like in Edmonton.

I said it was kind of a tough market, in that Edmontonians don't really trust anything that hasn't already been proven, that being said, we do have our fair share of expensive jeans, and it seems that the number of brands keeps growing ( I almost was convinced after christmas that Edmonton had had enough of the expensive jean craze when I saw the 50-75% sales at Underground and High Grade)

I offered to help expose and support the brand, if they liked, and they expressed interest in the idea. So i compiled a list and a profile of stores and they gave the go-ahead with putting the feelers out on stores (subject to my own strategy), with the promise that we would soon be in contact to see how it was coming. This is not something that could easily get off the ground, and I don't expect more than a few stores to carry the product. My intent on approaching stores, is to determine who buys product based on popularity, and who buys based on personal taste.

Like I said, I volunteered to help out, it's not the first time I've done it with a company, anyone interested in souping up their RX-8 please go visit www.canzoomer.com! My personal interest in cars led me to be an employee for those guys and it was a blast, even though the pay was miserable. But then again, even Formula 1 teams rely heavily on volunteer-work. As for History Preservation, we will see how my services pan out. They are super busy down there, Sugarcane demand is ramping up. However, I don't expect anything in return, simply because I believe that it would just drive me to seek every nook and cranny to shove a pair of jeans in, and that is not my intent. I just like seeing good companies with strong product do well. I'm also interested in either pursuing my own venture in the future, whether that be retail or manufacturing, will really be determined by my experience with Sugarcanes.

I'm not too sure what more I can say about all of this, maybe it was a poor idea to divulge all that has been going on. I do plan on attempting further exposure than just Edmonton. Maybe Vancouver, Toronto and Calgary have more progressive consumers, but like I said earlier, I live in Edmonton, and I have a full-time job already, so it's only natural for me to start here, and move outwards. I don't like to believe that just because I live in Edmonton, doesn't mean I don't know how to shop, or pick out nice clothes.

Anyways, I appreciate all of your comments, both positive and negative. My take on it is, 'nothing ventured, nothing gained'. I sincerely apologize if I gave anyone a bad impression, especially other Edmontonians. I love nothing more than exclusivity too, but I guess I just wanted to see if I could apply everything I've learned in the search for it too!

[partytaco]

they won't sell.

[PG2G]

Well, that sounds pretty cool and I guess I could see how it may be enjoyable. But yeah, I didn't mean to be critical if it came off that way

That's too bad about History Preservation doing good business with Sugarcane. I figured half the forum was hoping they'd sell like ass so they would realize the $200 markup on those premium ones is a bit much

[sean_]

i agree with the comment about lacking a distinctive branding, i mean look at the major couture jeans right now, it's like true religions with that ugly ass button pocket, antiks with the stupid back pocket garbage, sevens with less ugly but still noticeable branding, red monkeys etc... all the major (and i mean major with the public, not afficianados like many on this/other fashion forums) denim companies are obvious, something prps distinctively lack, unless yu count uber-destroyed as obvious, but half the jeans out there now are uber destroyed

anyways, good luck

this is my signature

[polystyreneman]

I like the idea of bringing better brands of denim to edmonton but it just seems like it won't be cost effective. History preservation i believe is the only distributor in NA of sugarcanes, and their prices are already marked up. Think about what a retailer like holt would do to an already inflated price. I mean i was at derks the other day and you got a deal at holt paying 310 for the RRDS, they were 450!!! at derks. I recall i paid half that from a place online with tax shipping and duties. I just got a pair of SSDS online as well and i saved about 100 bux from retail. You said people aren't confident buying online but from what i know the people that you want buying canes in edmonton are the denimheads that are the ones buying online. I may not be able to try on jeans in person but the people that know their shit will visit forums like this one and style forum and get an idea on how they will fit. Bringing canes to edmonton that will probably retail for 300 350+ won't sell.

[Guest]

Technically I said that I wanted forum visitors to support the brand by requesting it, not by actutally buying it in the stores. Of course we would use our knowledge of sizing and online prices to our advantage, but the 'mass consumer' would probably stick to the the traditional route.

I want to find the stores that want to carry the brand, and one way to determine that is to approach them and ask. The other way to determine interest is to try and create some hype in front of the counter, but at this point I don't think anyone will support that. I think the last place on earth you would find cost-effective denim is Edmonton. Your RRDS sticker shock at Derks is proof of that.

As a consumer, I like having more selection, higher turnover, bigger range in prices, because it means more choice, and more competitive pricing. I want to promote having more quality brands being sold in Edmonton so that I'm not stuck looking at the same thing all the time, and waiting for stores to decide when to update selection. I love shopping online, but I bought a pair of Mihara Pumas in HK for $125 at Lane Crawford, and online at Puma.com, I would be paying easily twice that before conversion and shipping! I'm not saying that is a fair comparison, I'm just saying that if Edmonton carried more product, and moved it effectively, then it would be possible to get good deals on clothing before they went out of style.

I still stand by my opinion on PRPS, although i will admit to loving DS more than the 'distressed' look. You have to admit, the whole point of getting dry unwashed is to create that look yourself, otherwise we'd all be buying Evisu Pumas, which I don't think will age at all from the amount of indigo those things are giving up! I give respect to PRPS for accomplishing a great distressed look that I have not seen elsewhere. And I still love the logo.

[Yet Fung]

Technically I said that I wanted forum visitors to support the brand by requesting it, not by actutally buying it in the stores. Of course we would use our knowledge of sizing and online prices to our advantage, but the 'mass consumer' would probably stick to the the traditional route.

I want to find the stores that want to carry the brand, and one way to determine that is to approach them and ask. The other way to determine interest is to try and create some hype in front of the counter, but at this point I don't think anyone will support that. I think the last place on earth you would find cost-effective denim is Edmonton. Your RRDS sticker shock at Derks is proof of that.

As a consumer, I like having more selection, higher turnover, bigger range in prices, because it means more choice, and more competitive pricing. I want to promote having more quality brands being sold in Edmonton so that I'm not stuck looking at the same thing all the time, and waiting for stores to decide when to update selection. I love shopping online, but I bought a pair of Mihara Pumas in HK for $125 at Lane Crawford, and online at Puma.com, I would be paying easily twice that before conversion and shipping! I'm not saying that is a fair comparison, I'm just saying that if Edmonton carried more product, and moved it effectively, then it would be possible to get good deals on clothing before they went out of style. After witnessing the post Christmas sale prices in HK, I didn't think I could ever go boxing-day shopping again in Edmonton!

I still stand by my opinion on PRPS, although i will admit to loving DS more than the 'distressed' look denim. You have to admit, the whole point of getting dry unwashed is to create that look yourself, otherwise we'd all be buying Evisu Pumas, which I don't think will age at all from the amount of indigo those things are giving up! I give respect to PRPS for accomplishing a great distressed look that I have not seen elsewhere. And I still love the logo.

[HEWSINATOR]

Yet, I want to make it clear that I do not discourage you in doing this, I would love nothing more than have a local retailer for me to get Canes at. All and all, I just do not think that they will do well, I could write for a while why I think this, but I just do not think that they would do well.

And the example with my friend was to say that with extensive personal selling, it was still took a while for any of my friends to pick up a pir of dry denims. Just my thoughts about the demand at really any price, then you throw in the price I am kinda thinkin' they would be, I say no way.

And just because a store sells Dry Selvedge, does not mean they are keeping the lights on with them. I would be truly curious how much dry denim Derks, High Grade, etc... is selling.

[Yet Fung]

Yeah of course, no hard feelings hews, I totally understand the comments that were made, and if anything it has caused me to rethink my strategy, and at the very least I had the opportunity to clarify my intentions. I had to put it out there because I know how many edmontonians visit the forum, and it was another way for me to put a read out on how things are around here. Even if this does turn out to be a bust, I've made some great contacts both in and out of Edmonton.

I agree that dry denim is a hard sell, up until the point where you've got a pair that are 6 months old and someone asks where you got those jeans. Personally I'm going to try and accelerate the wear on my new RRDS so that once I get my Canes, I'll be able to know what I can and can't get away with.

Thanks for everyone's invaluable inupt!