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homi29

Is it time to get off a sinking ship?

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come on at least scan the last couple pages before you go making obvious jokes

I think this is directed towards me. I had only read the first 2 pages before posting and realizing that there was 9 pages. Oops. Anyways, this is an interesting thread. I like what youre saying Francis Xavier.

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When I am done with college, I plan on moving to Scandinavia. Hot girls and a safe country. Hell if Lithuania wasnt such a shitshow, I would move there. (easy citizenship for me)

I think that something drastic has to happen or we honestly are fucked as a nation. The greedy fucking pigs are running us into the ground but the dont give a damn because they will just take their riches and move someplace else. Washington is broken. Mexicans will soon outnumber whites. Violence is all too common. We seriously need to get our act together

Obama wants to fix this nation but he can't. Washington is too screwed up to allow changes that makes the powers' lifes harder. I think Ron Paul would be terribly ineffective because of partisian crap. We need serious reform in the government for our country to improve significantly.

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If anybody tried to reform the corruption within our government, the elites that have destroyed it would sabotage their presidency from the inside out. Look at how the right blames Carter for everything. Here's a brutal reality check: Obama. Obama will not save us. He's their man. Deal with that. He might be a better alternative, but a Democrat is a liar. A Democrat creates poverty to maintain poverty and maintain a reason for you to vote democrate while ensuring an end product consistent with the other side's end product so that those who control stay in control. I'm also sickened by people who think that they've conqored racism by acting overtly racist in their celebration of why they voted for Obama. That one is directed at you, "black america."

If we're going to get through this we, the people, need to stick together. We need to get past petty racial differences and stop acting like little pussy-crybabies. I mean really get over race. None of us are special in this situation anymore. Nobody will be or has been looking out for us besides each other. We need to get past our bullshit. Certain groups in this country need to stop holding out their hands and expecting the world on a plate and when it doesn't work out that way, they blame the majority. The majority needs to realize that there are forces deliberately attacking their senses of community and we need to secure our borders. We need to, by and large, take it upon ourselves to shop smart, and hit these faggots where it hurts them most... Their wallets. We'll railroad them if even half of us decide to STOP SHOPPING CORPORATE, TURN OFF THE TV, BUY A SMALLER HOUSE, HAVE KIDS AT AN OLDER AGE, SAVE UP FOR KIDS -- NOT CARS. THANKS!

Respect your fucking elders, too. Just because your dick works and your boobs are six inches higher now doesn't mean you're more intelligent than somebody who's seen it all. Stop forcing them to live alientaed lives of humiliation and fear and maybe they'll have something relevant to say about the world instead of being forced to hate it by a world that throws them away.

Bitches.

Community, identity, respect, small businesses. THERE. Problem solved.

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hey dipshit

when more than half of your possessions are actually made in this hemisphere, i'll listen to you. until then, go back to eating your local bananas and playing your american made playstations.

edit: lol @ labor theory of value

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I think this is directed towards me. I had only read the first 2 pages before posting and realizing that there was 9 pages. Oops. Anyways, this is an interesting thread. I like what youre saying Francis Xavier.

was at whoever posted im on a boat for the second time

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Francis Xavier you are putting my thoughts into words.

I would +rep but it always says error on page at the bottom of my browser. This forum has been pretty fucked ever since they changed it.

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Hey look, it's Jayrock! Everyone's favorite acne-scarred neocon! Hey Jayrock, how do you feel about the polar bear situation? Hey Jayrock, do you still think that Chomsky's a marxist? Hey Jayrock, read any good books lately that aren't by RL Stein?

If you actually read my banter, I address the problem of manufacturing most our goods outside of our borders and why importing more than we export is a huge problem. You're stupid and no not, nothing, and nothing at all.

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If you actually read my banter, I address the problem of manufacturing most our goods outside of our borders and why importing more than we export is a huge problem.

you can't distinguish between economics and ethics.

american manufacturing jobs are not coming back. period.

you could have more accurately described the problem by saying that americans don't save for cars, they finance. there are a lot of other factors involved, but adjusting our import/export ratio is hardly a fix for government incompetence and corporate shortsightedness.

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francis, I agree with you for the most part, but you and I part ways when it comes to racial inequality in America. I'm no big fan of people who are quick to talk about "handouts" but do not acknowledge the shameful way this country has treated black people. from slavery, to jim crow & using laws/police to maintain control after abolition... 1) redlining by banks, political districting, zoning laws, unequal drug sentencing laws, the list goes on and on... 2) you'd be lying if you said the color of someone's skin isn't of huge importance, even in 2009

but 3) I agree. it isn't about race anymore, but class. divisions between ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation -- are all encouraged to distract and alienate people, in order to maintain the status quo.

2) I'm glad we can agree that this is happening to the black community. Let's address now how that is happening in every community and kill many birds with one stone. Drugs are a tool used to slander character. This is strategic. Liken them to witch trials. Cliche truth: The War on Drugs = Divide and Conquer while increasing the value of the drug market in north america so that people make a fuck-ton of money off of our tax dollars. Right.

1) Lets talk about economic divide and conquer of the masses:

For instance, a large chunk of baltimore's worst crime and least development is centralized into specific areas. The areas that were manufacturing, processing, factories etc... These jobs were outsourced. There's nothing there anymore because it's not makings its own money. That matters whether you can admit it or not. People move out, properties die, the traps are set.

The organized initiatives that are taking place to divide us are coming from syndicates composed of individuals who care not for race or community. They are carving pies strategically. Those who are not tied down by the community of its "subject people" will inevitably care little for their well being and decisions that directly effect the long term future of our living standards.

There is no longer an organized initiative by, consciously, the common people of this country to sabotage upward economic and, put inappropriately, "social" mobility through jobs and educational resources of any other citizen. Those citizen fringe groups that do hold supremacist beliefs are so low on the totem pole that they're not even worth mentioning. Our enemy is not tribal.

3) That is not what I meant, really. There's truth to that in many applications but... Not that you were -- but many people do -- employ wildly unhealthy and obsolete flash-science to try to debunk race. Race exists. Here is what I mean by that. Race is an omnipresent force that naturally divides us (not negatively alone). It's simply too easy to manipulate people racially and for any organized syndicate with a reason to control the population to resist using it. We have to look at race much differently than we did before. I'm not claiming to have an answer as to how.

Please read

. Our species isn't as chaotic as you think. There is a natural pattern to our behavior and we're insanely easy to mass-manipulate for people with the organization and resources to resist. This includes american power-political leftist initiatives as well as right. Denying race's importance is ignorant to the nature of our species, but we're being manipulated into viewing it in a horribly distorted way. Our common views of multiculturalism need a serious revision.

1) I, Jayrock, can't distinguish between economics and ethics.

2) american manufacturing jobs are not coming back. period.

you could have more accurately described the problem by saying that americans 3) don't save for cars, they finance. there are a lot of other factors involved, but adjusting our import/export ratio is 4) hardly a fix for government incompetence and corporate shortsightedness.

^^^

See how easy it is to mold people into blithering idiots ideologically? The zeal they seem to have blows my mind.

Most animals are controlled by pheromones: how to feel about things, what to do about things. The patterns are predictable.

1) Fixed.

2) That's right Americans! They were here once but they're never coming back! We can never change the behavior in which we consume! Give up! Thanks, Jayrock! While we're at it, lets run away from everythign else as well. That'll fix the problem!

3) It's true. American's don't save. We pay for it later. We're encouraged to to be the selfish, childish, materialistic fools you know we've been. Normally I'd say, "nice eye", but you're just using cheap ammunition. The sloganeering was obvious with that one.

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francis, I agree with you for the most part, but you and I part ways when it comes to racial inequality in America. I'm no big fan of people who are quick to talk about "handouts" but do not acknowledge the shameful way this country has treated black people. from slavery, to jim crow & using laws/police to maintain control after abolition... 1) redlining by banks, political districting, zoning laws, unequal drug sentencing laws, the list goes on and on... 2) you'd be lying if you said the color of someone's skin isn't of huge importance, even in 2009

but 3) I agree. it isn't about race anymore, but class. divisions between ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation -- are all encouraged to distract and alienate people, in order to maintain the status quo.

2) I'm glad we can agree that this is happening to the black community. Let's address now how that is happening in every community and kill all man birds with one stone. Drugs are a tool used to slander character. This is strategic. Liken them to witch trials. Cliche truth: The War on Drugs = Divide and Conquer.

1) Lets talk about economic divide and conquer of the masses:

For instance, a large chunk of baltimore's worst crime and least development is centralized into specific areas. The areas that were manufacturing, processing, factories etc... These jobs were outsourced. There's nothing there anymore because it's not makings its own money. That matters whether you can admit it or not. People move out, properties die, the traps are set.

The organized initiatives that are taking place to divide us are coming from syndicates composed of individuals who care not for race or community. They are carving pies strategically. Those who are not tied down by the community of its "subject people" will inevitably care little for their well being and decisions that directly effect the long term future of our living standards.

There is no longer an organized initiative by, consciously, the common people of this country to sabotage upward economic and, put inappropriately, "social" mobility through jobs and educational resources of any other citizen. Those citizen fringe groups that do hold supremacist beliefs are so low on the totem pole that they're not even worth mentioning. Our enemy is not tribal.

3) That is not what I meant, really. There's truth to that in many applications but... Not that you were -- but many people do -- employ wildly unhealthy and obsolete flash-science to try to debunk race. Race exists. Here is what I mean by that. Race is an omnipresent force that naturally divides us (not negatively alone). It's simply too easy to manipulate people racially and for any organized syndicate with a reason to control the population to resist using it. We have to look at race much differently than we did before. I'm not claiming to have an answer as to how.

Please read

. Our species isn't as chaotic as you think. There is a natural pattern to our behavior and we're insanely easy to mass-manipulate for people with the organization and resources to resist. This includes american power-political leftist initiatives as well as right. Denying race's importance is ignorant to the nature of our species, but we're being manipulated into viewing it in a horribly distorted way. Our common views of multiculturalism need a serious revision.

1) I, Jayrock, can't distinguish between economics and ethics.

2) american manufacturing jobs are not coming back. period.

you could have more accurately described the problem by saying that americans 3) don't save for cars, they finance. there are a lot of other factors involved, but adjusting our import/export ratio is 4) hardly a fix for government incompetence and corporate shortsightedness.

^^^

See how easy it is to mold people into blithering idiots ideologically? The consistency they seem to have blows my mind. So many of them.

Most animals are controlled by pheromones: how to feel about things, what to do about things. The patterns are predictable.

1) Fixed.

2) That's right Americans! They were here once but they're never coming back! We can never change the behavior in which we consume! Give up! Thanks, Jayrock! While we're at it, lets run away from everything else as well. That'll fix the problem!

3) It's true. American's don't save. We pay for it later. We're encouraged to to be the selfish, childish, materialistic fools you know we've been. Normally I'd say, "nice eye", but you're just using cheap ammunition. The sloganeering was obvious with that one.

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I

Community, identity, respect, small businesses. THERE. Problem solved.

in just four easy steps you too can have a functioning nation.

in all seriousness though while greed and unfettered capitalism is often blamed for the current crisis (and certainly wall st was a big part of the problem), It was loose monetary policy that created the real estate bubble. We live in a reality now where people realized that what they owned wasnt worth what they may have paid. Perhaps that's a good thing.

what scares me is this return to protectionism, and the fact that everyones putting their faith in government.

the government can only do so much, we shouldn't rely on government to "fix" the economy, and the fact that we are speaks volumes..

everyone is at fault, individuals, governments, and businesses. that being said though .. even if you were prudent and responsible you too will be affected and lose out over the duration of this recession ..

and that is the biggest shame.. we will all suffer for the mistakes that greedy idiots made

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you missed number 4

i can recognize the fact that an american cannot, and will not, do the same job that a vietnamese person does, for the same pay. on that note, please inform us as to what we as americans should start manufacturing for export, aside from corporate logos and cluster bombs.

americans need to save more. chinese consumers need to spend more. changing consumption habits with regard to country of origin has little effect if we're still living on 17.9%APR, a second mortgage and two car loans.

re: original topic

get money get paid. being a debt slave in the global depression is not looking to promising.

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I thought this thread was about superfuture 4.0

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you missed number 4

i can recognize the fact that 1) an american cannot, and will not, do the same job that a vietnamese person does, for the same pay. on that note, please inform us as to what we as americans should start manufacturing for export, aside from corporate logos and cluster bombs.

2) americans need to save more. chinese consumers need to spend more. 3) changing consumption habits with regard to country of origin has little effect if we're still living on 17.9%APR, a second mortgage and two car loans.

re: original topic

get money get paid. being a debt slave in the global depression is not looking to promising.

1) We should, we could. Buying american would create a demand. Creating a demand creates a marketplace. In this case, domestically. Imagine that, sacrificing together to fix a problem. What a radical, unrealistic concept. You're pathetic. You're the type of hopeless person we really don't need right now. Jump ship and sink.

2) Heh, heh. Boy, oh boy.

3) So, what you're saying is: our consumption habits will never change our consumption habits because we don't change our consumption habits. Cool, thanks for that.

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in just four easy steps you too can have a functioning nation.

in all seriousness though while greed and unfettered capitalism is often blamed for the current crisis (and certainly wall st was a big part of the problem), It was loose monetary policy that created the real estate bubble. We live in a reality now where people realized that what they owned wasnt worth what they may have paid. Perhaps that's a good thing.

what scares me is this return to protectionism, and the fact that everyones putting their faith in government.

the government can only do so much, we shouldn't rely on government to "fix" the economy, and the fact that we are speaks volumes..

everyone is at fault, individuals, governments, and businesses. that being said though .. even if you were prudent and responsible you too will be affected and lose out over the duration of this recession ..

and that is the biggest shame.. we will all suffer for the mistakes that greedy idiots made

This needs to be re-posted on the same page.

Good thread.

Bedtime, g'night.

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you're the one preaching about isolationist consumerism like it will save the global recession.

for the record, i agree with everything homi said

1) We should, we could. Buying american would create a demand. Creating a demand creates a marketplace. In this case, domestically. Imagine that, sacrificing together to fix a problem. What a radical, unrealistic concept.

demand is determined by the value of a product. value is determined by various factors such as price, quality and utility of a product. if an identical good can be produced in a country that is not USA at a fraction of the price, it doesn't matter how patriotic you are, that is a better value for your money. just because you prop american made goods up and create an artificial value for them, you can't expect the demand to automatically follow, especially if said value has a corresponding increase in price.

not that buying american is wrong. it's just not a one-size-fits-all solution to a poor global economic problem

buy american when you can, but most of your possessions will never be made here so i wouldn't sweat it too much.

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i have been wondering what botherd me about the title of this thread till just now... where will you go? even if the boat was sinking? where would you go dude?

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what scares me is this return to protectionism, and the fact that everyones putting their faith in government.

the government can only do so much, we shouldn't rely on government to "fix" the economy, and the fact that we are speaks volumes..

we've created a society which is unwilling to accept losses. growth growth growth! economy's slowing down? lower interest rates! that'll teach you fuckers to buy shit.

...not that that sorta thing isn't a useful tool. it is, but banks creating derivative products to effectively allow people to write an insurance policy on a stock they don't own is taking it a little far. and that has become the norm. and now, instead of letting the system--which is completely FUCKED--fail, we are bailing out companies like AIG who wrote these policies to effectively pay off people who bought these products for the mortgage bundles that are failing. Truth of the matter is, we don't know if this is really happening or not, because our government decided to give them all this money with no accountability (probably because if the public found out what they were doing with it, we'd be a bit pissed...because it ain't the general public getting paid). End rant.

demand is determined by the value of a product. value is determined by various factors such as price, quality and utility of a product. if an identical good can be produced in a country that is not USA at a fraction of the price, it doesn't matter how patriotic you are, that is a better value for your money.

Despite the attempted reaming, you have made a strong point against Xavier's argument. I don't think simply buying American is the answer. We live in a global economy now, and I just don't think the world is big enough anymore to go all protectionist successfully.

i have been wondering what botherd me about the title of this thread till just now... where will you go? even if the boat was sinking? where would you go dude?

I've always wanted to play didgeridoo. Maybe I could be this guy...

DC9w4KWEgJE

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yo jayrock, how do you expect the average chinese consumer to spend more when their economy is tanking right now?

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but banks creating derivative products to effectively allow people to write an insurance policy on a stock they don't own is taking it a little far. and that has become the norm. and now, instead of letting the system--which is completely FUCKED--fail, we are bailing out companies like AIG who wrote these policies to effectively pay off people who bought these products for the mortgage bundles that are failing.

Just a small correction... they didn't write policies on stocks, they wrote policies on the debt of companies... credit default swaps pay off when a company defaults on debt. Credit default swaps are very useful hedging instruments for people who have credit risk with the institution the policy is written on, but yes, their use did get out of hand when people were allowed to buy them on companies to which they had no exposure.

Despite the attempted reaming, you have made a strong point against Xavier's argument. I don't think simply buying American is the answer. We live in a global economy now, and I just don't think the world is big enough anymore to go all protectionist successfully.

Free trade > Protectionism. Even if free trade is an idealism, the psuedo-free trade system full of tariffs and governmental currency intervention that we currently have is still better than protectionism.

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yo jayrock, how do you expect the average chinese consumer to spend more when their economy is tanking right now?

Chinese economy isn't tanking, look at their economic indicators since mid December. Their stimulus actually worked, and they can pump plenty more into their system without borrowing, and they will if needed.

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Chinese consumers on average save much more than their American counterparts. Thus, they have more disposable income available to purchase material goods. China's export based economy depends entirely on a strong U.S. demand for their cheap goods. Americans can no longer afford this. Thus, the Chinese government needs to stop manipulating their currency in favor of cheap exports, and allow their consumer base to start purchasing more imported goods. This is the only way the United States can ever start manufacturing anything worthy again, is if their is a strong global demand. We cannot hold our country afloat simply by our own needs and wants in this globally intertwined community.

The American economy is based on consumption. The Chinese economy is based on exports. This needs to be adjusted, as I have previously stated. These are the two most important countries involved in solving this fiasco.

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The American economy is based on consumption. The Chinese economy is based on exports. This needs to be adjusted, as I have previously stated. These are the two most important countries involved in solving this fiasco.

good point but if the chinese currency doesnt raise, the only way to get people buying US exports again is to debase the dollar. Which means consumers in the states get fucked on the price of everything and expensive oil and other commodities will be back in force.

that and we dont really make shit worth buying in north america... sure we have services.. but to use a quote from the wire

"We dont make shit in this country anymore, we're just the guy who's got their hands in everyone elses pockets"

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I'm thinking more along the lines of innovations in renewable energy technology as opposed to industrial manufacturing, but yeah, I see your point. The U.S. dollar is already debased to shit and that hasn't helped out exports too much yet. There will be an ever increasing demand for clean energy, and I honestly believe that through American innovation we could possibly become a leading exporter of clean energy technologies. I applaud the government for recognizing this fact, but at the same time understand that they are entirely inefficient in everything they do and looking to them for all the answers is not the most viable solution.

China knows this too, which is why they're installing solar panels like it's going out of style. The simple fact remains that the Chinese consumer base is limited by their government so their potential demand has not yet been fully unleashed.

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