Book Club

[habia]

about halfway through Children of the Alley right now.

a couple small issues I have been thinking about concerning the novel:

What religion are the people of the alley? At one point there was a children's verse or something about "are you christians or are you jews?" but I got the impression this verse was addressed to outsiders and that the people of the alley are neither christians nor jews themselves. I find it interesting that they frequently exclaim "god damn" "oh, god" or such, since Gabalawi obviously seems to be the god like figure. They never exclaim "by Gabalawi" or similar, substituting Gabalawi's name for "God" in curses.

Also one annoying thing which is entirely my own issue. Something about the writing style or setting, likely both, heavily reminds me of the Redwall novels by Brian Jacques I used to read in elementary school. Sometimes while reading Children of the Alley I find myself envisioning the characters with hairy mouse arms or something rediculous like that, pretty distracting.

The biggest issue I am thinking about regarding the text is how much trust to place in Mafouz and Theroux. Sometimes for instance I will find a passage of the narrative very difficult to follow. is this an issue of poor writing by Mafouz himself or perhaps clumsy translation?

Perhaps my favorite written work of all time, Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury has many very confusing passages which encourage close, repeated readings and I do not begrudge him that at all. I see it as a measure of Faulkner's incredible writing skill and talent that spending time unpacking the text rewards the reader.

Is Mafouz writing on the same level of art and craft with Faulkner, Nabakov and others? Is Theroux accurately and carefully translating every nuance of the original text?

Perhaps, I cannot quite say. Either way, identifying the differences in my interpretations of the text between the multiple levels of trust certainly shows me more about myself and the work itself.

[tmadd]

Is Mafouz writing on the same level of art and craft with Faulkner, Nabakov and others? Is Theroux accurately and carefully translating every nuance of the original text?

Perhaps, I cannot quite say. Either way, identifying the differences in my interpretations of the text between the multiple levels of trust certainly shows me more about myself and the work itself.

This isn't an incredibly productive thing to say, but when you are reading a translation, and aren't able to read the original language, this question really is a moot point. And I say this having initially had questions about the translation myself. There's a very good chance that even an ideal translation would be devoid of much of the nuance of the original texts. Nuance doesn't translate very well.

[landho]

This isn't an incredibly productive thing to say, but when you are reading a translation, and aren't able to read the original language, this question really is a moot point. And I say this having initially had questions about the translation myself. There's a very good chance that even an ideal translation would be devoid of much of the nuance of the original texts. Nuance doesn't translate very well.

I agree with tmadd here. When reading translated texts, you can't worry so much about teasing out meaning through wordplay or nuance as much and instead be concerned with the "story" itself. While there may be concern with Theroux's translation, I think we will be best served if we simply assume that what we are reading is Theroux's translation of Mahfouz's book and not worry about any friction between the original text and the translated text. We should share any wordplay or nuance that strikes us. It will be a more enjoyable experience for all of us this way.

Also, I will say that the book's fabulism lends itself to worrying more about the story and less about the language, although clearly an understanding of the Torah, the Bible, and (I assume) the Qu'ran will greatly enhance our understanding and enjoyment of the book.

[habia]

I do agree that getting hung up details we will likely never understand is basically a waste of time.

But looking solely at narrative is selling the text short though. What makes a truly great translator is the ability to preserve as many aspects of the original text as possible, narrative included of course, but also preserving the prose: diction, cadence, form, and everything. I do believe great, almost perfect or even effectively perfect translations exist.

anyway, not quite worth typing about the translation and translators more.

anyone have insights or thoughts on comparisons between Children of the Alley and the Torah or Quran? I did attend christian church services and sunday school until the age of ten so I have decent familiarity with Bible tales and the like, but pretty much no knowledge of Judaism or Islam.

[tmadd]

I have almost zero knowledge of religious texts other than the bible, but I can assure you that if you finish Children of the Alley, you will have a different perspective from which to frame your question of the relation of the book to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

[landho]

Very briefly...

Part Three: Rifaa

Finished the third part about Rifaa last night. Felt pretty choked up when the gangsters took him out to the desert, especially when he exclaimed, "Why do you want to kill me?"

Am beginning to understand that the book is about the creation of religion. That is a very superficial description, of course, but I love this book thus far. Will probably finish it in the next few days with more comments. Just wanted to bring this thread up!

Also, will have some comments on Money, which was never really properly discussed.

[landho]

Finished this (finally) last night. Loved this book so much. Even though I knew that the entire story was fabulistic, that didn't prevent me from loving each individual story and being drawn into all the details. Mahfouz understands psychology on a grand scale, realizing that the intimate and the far-reaching human experience are one and the same and manages to capture both throughout the book.

Will discuss more later but wanted to get some notes (more like an opinion) down before this thread evanesceced!

Will also mention, at the risk of stating the obvious:

•

Galabawi

: God

•

Idris

: Lucifer/Satan

•

Adham

: Adam

•

Umayama

: Eve

•

Human

: Abel

•

Qadri

: Cain

•

Gabal

: Moses

•

Rifaa

: Jesus

•

Rifaa's Four Friends

(don't have the book on me, can't recall their names): Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (

Ali

is John)

•

Qassem

: Muhammad

•

Arafa

: Science

•

Hanash

: Hope, understanding, Messiah?

[marcococo]

moved it too the other book thread serious retard impulse.

[tmadd]

Let's open up Children of the Alley for full on discussion...

Also, is Book Club dead or is there still interest?

[habia]

good post, landho. I would add that gabalawi's servant is an angel, not sure which one in particular. I made a few of the more obvious connections there but your list is very illuminating.

Honestly, I didn't love Children of the Alley. For some reason I just couldn't get into it. I think it was mainly jsut that I was more in the mood for some dense literature at the time.

My favorite aspect of the book is the proximity of Gabalawi to all the happenings.

I can't remember a time in my life I have ever bleieved in a "god" before, though I remember when I was 5-7 I just sort of automatically thought god existed, would ask questions like "Is God a man or a woman?" "How old is he?" stuff like that.

Yet reading Children of the Alley where Gabalawi portrayed an omnipotent, basically physical body only a few hundred feet away from the alley within his mansion sort of startled me, that perhaps this is how religious people I know see god. That god is right here, all the time.

At the same time my own effectively-atheistic thoughts did creep in, I would catch myself thinking "why isn't every person in the alley questioning that Gabalawi could possibly be alive for so many generations?" Of course that is beside the point.

The final chapter seemed the most modern to me, mainly since after so many pages of pure faith that Gabalawi was somewhere still alive through Arafa's eyes we actually went into his mansion.

tmadd, I saw you are reading Oscar Wao now. Great book, enjoy. I also just read Diaz's other book, Drown. Also good, though I think Oscar Wao may be his masterpiece.... Diaz has been at work on it for about 10 years and it shows.

who is choosing the next book, should we try to set up another deadline? I do like having a schedule.

[landho]

A quick note.

habia, I am surprised by your comment that Children of the Alley isn't "dense literature," but it's probably just a matter of semantics. (Please correct me if I am wrong.) It seems that you are wanting to read something with more involved wordplay and is literarily deconstructive, where the meaning of the novel is tied into its actual construction.

I think Children of the Alley is a work of the highest order; I will say that I was constantly surprised and impressed as I read it, filled with both a sense of wonder and anticipation, which I think the greatest works of literature should do. Something that really struck me was, after I realized that the story was going to be fabulistic and allegorical, I knew generally where it was headed (for example, I knew that the "Rifaa" segment was going to be about Jesus). That did not stop me from being gripped or surprised or even affected, actually. The book is very densely allusive, but unfortunately the allusions it makes are to religious literature, specifically that of the Judeo-Chistian-Islamic traditions.

Of course, I think it bears repeating that this book is considered very blasphemous; in fact, Mahfouz was stabbed in the neck one day by a couple of militant Islamists because of reawakened interest in Children of the Alley in light of the publication of Satanic Verses. Children goes a step further, I think, than many other modern works in that it deconstructs not language or the process of the creation of the novel but rather a society itself, the very foundations of several civilizations.

[habia]

ah, yes you are right I did not quite mean exactly what I wrote.

"dense" would imply, as you say, content per word, per line, per page. I do think think there is a lot of meaning in the text, certainly much more than I have accessed so far.

What I meant to say is that the timing of when I read Children of the Alley was such that at the time I wanted a text with more emphasis on wordplay, prose.

I said I like having a deadline, which I stand by, but the obvious downside is that I ended up reading Children of the Alley when I consciously wanted to re-read a couple Virginia Woolf novels!

[fallen angels]

What book is next in line for the book club?

[habia]

new year

how are things, Lan, tmadd, fallen angels?

[landho]

Happy new year, Webb.

And a new year for the book club!

Been thinking about this thread recently; one of my friends posted a list of the books he read in 2008 along with a short note about each, and it prompted a good bit of impromptu discussion among a number of us. I then thought, "Man, we should really start a book club...."

I read both Money and Children of the Alley.

Recently, I've read No Country for Old Men, The Road, The Tipping Point, and books three and four of Michael Moorcock's Elric saga. I also finished reading volumes one and two of Osamu Tezuka's Black Jack, which are finally being printed in English in its entirety, and volume eighteen of Chris Ware's Acme Novelty Library.

So although I haven't been reading as much as I used, I've read quite a bit lately. I shipped off the vast majority of my library to my sister's fiancé's parents' house. I kept a small portion of my library, and I have to decide how much to bring with me to New York. There is a fine line to walk between books that I love, books that I will read in the near future, books that I hope to read in the upcoming year, and books that are rare that I spent a good amount of time hunting down. I am thinking of shipping mostly philosophy and film studies stuff, but even that is too ambitious. I am going to have to pare down my list quite a bit, I think, especially since I am shipping some movies as well.

Among the fiction that I pulled out that I want to read in the near future include:

• works by Yasunari Kawabata, particularly his very short works;

• Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar stories;

• Samuel Delany's Nevèrÿon stories;

• works by Stanislaw Lem;

• works by Pär Lagerkvist, particularly his shorter works;

• Naguib Mahfouz's Cairo trilogy;

• Cormac McCarthy's Borders trilogy; and

• others!

Obviously this is a pretty ambitious list, but I can easily be persuaded to read anything on here. I will probably be reading multiple things at once anyway. Also, it should be fairly evident that my interest these days lean (for the most part) toward works of genre in some form of another.

Thanks for bringing back this thread, Webb!

[horriblyjollyjinx]

anyone read No longer human by Osamu Dazai? Reading it kills me.

[tmadd]

Happy New Years everyone! I am still as ready as ever and have appreciated the input of everyone on here, because left to my own devices I tend to gravitate towards "American Classics" or brand new fiction, both of which I enjoy, but don't provide me with the same variety and depth that I have enjoyed since utilizing this thread as a means of finding something new to read. Also, I am now a prime candidate for reading projects of the most ambitious intent as I am a few days away from starting a job that has a 2 hour train commute each way...I am significantly more excited about the 4 hours of nearly mandatory reading each day than I am about the job itself. Anyways, I am down for a reincarnation of this book club, and I am equally down for using this thread, or private messages to organize more focused concurrent readings and discussions amongst smaller groups (as few as 2 people) if that seems to work better. The thing I am most interested in, and that I have most missed over the last 6 months since graduation is having people to discuss with and bounce ideas off of.

[landho]

Actually, a book that I started a couple of years ago but never finished but thought was absolutely amazing was The Fairy Tales of Herman Hesse (as translated by Jack Zipes).

Would probably be a good place to start again; a collection of short works that many people haven't read by a Nobel laureate. Really, really loved what I had read (about half).

Thoughts?

[habia]

Fairy Tales of Hermann Hesse sounds great. Have read Steppenwolf and really enjoyed it, checked out Under the Wheel but returned it unread due to a move.

previously we were doing about 5 weeks per book, is that too long or too short do people think? When I have spare time to read 5 weeks is way too long, but when I get busy sometimes it can be hard to find even one or two good reading days in a month....

Would be superficially elegant if we could say one month today and start/end books at the beginning or each month.

also, compiled a list of books I read in 2008, inspired by Lan's friend. Intended for personal use, but I will post for public perusing! feel free to read.

too long to include in this post (see next post), but here are brief highlights:

Single book I most recommend from list:

The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz

The two books I most frequently mentioned in conversations with friends:

Labyrinths by Luis Borges and A Scanner Darkly by Philip K Dick

Worst book:

somehow choose books very well this year and everything was great.

books used to pick up intellectual chicks:

none

Books mutilated by another library patron:

Norwegian Wood and Kafka on the Shore by Haruki Murakami

Book which gave me the hardest time tracking it down in new york libraries:

Burning Chrome by William Gibson

books I gave to others as gifts this year:

Burning Chrome by William Gibson and Mr. Punch by Neil Gaiman.

[habia]

books in 2008

Pattern Recognition by William Gibson

Particularly liked depiction of a Russia caught between high tech industry and wild west corruption. Additionally was surprised about poignancy with which Gibson writes about and references the September 11th attacks

Spook Country by William Gibson

His most recent book at the time of reading, good of course. Perhaps not a major work, perhaps not perfecting craft and styles developed in previous novels. Particularly I recall he used same anecdote on scrambled eggs cooked with water as featured briefly in his Bridge Trilogy.

Virtual Light by William Gibson

High tech low life, in the words of Bruce Sterling. Great.

Prodigal Summer by Barbara Kingsolver

A total “mom†book. Really enjoyed it nonetheless. The same way Black Hawk Down makes me want to join the army Prodigal Summer makes me want to move to a tiny rural town and live in the woods.

Botany of Desire by Michael Pollan

Pollan is great, very thoroughly researched information on food and agriculture. Seemingly at least, it is always dangerous to take all one’s information on a discipline from one source.

You Don't Love Me Yet by Jonathan Lethem

Makes loft parties and underground rock concerts sound really fun. Read this in January 2008, then without remembering this book in particular started going to a lot of underground rock shows in New York from March to present, hmm. Still need to break into loft and warehouse party scene though.

Beautiful Boy by David Sheff

Writing style reminds me heavily of Pollan, logically since both Sheff and Pollan are journalists. Story of Sheff’s son’s addiction to meth among other substances, wonderfully and subtly intertwines hardcore research and data on addiction with the first hand knowledge of having addiction in the family.

Count Zero by William Gibson

Good, honestly this one sort of blends in with his other books in retrospect

burning chrome by William Gibson

Collection of Gibson’s short fiction, with this format is obviously able to convey a greater perspective on his body of work than any one of his novels. Favorite story was about a future where genius is a commodity, blows my mind.

fourth sex by Francesco Bonami and Raf Simons

Anthology on youth culture and adolescence. Really great, at 20 years old makes me feel past my prime as I totally missed out on the whole 15-17 period in my life. A collection of very powerful imagery and writing. I am very grateful my library has it and I am able to borrow a copy (for three months at a time nonetheless! Still have it)

malcom x autobiography

Perhaps the most American book I read all year. Most admire the way he is able to take full responsibility for everything he has said in his life, while staying open minded.

catcher in the rye by JD Salinger

Re read for first time since high school. Still a great book, particularly like section on academia near the end

franny and zooey by JD Salinger

Read this in a hurry, will re read somewhere down the road. Don’t think I got much out of this.

9 stories by JD Salinger

Was unable to remember a single story from this until looking at Wikipedia entry on the collection. After jogging memory though I remember every story and how much I enjoyed reading them the first time. Of all books I read in 2008 I most want to re read 9 Stories. Stories touching on the military and shift from soldier --> civilian most fascinating.

norweigan wood by Haruki Murakami

First Murakami book I ever read. Liked it a lot, writing and voice remind me of Mishima, is this a Japanese thing, a translation thing or coincidence that the only two Japanese writers I have read sound similar?

wind up bird chronicle by Haruki Murakami

Particularly love the section around p.25 where the narrator’s wife says she can’t justify her intense distaste for blue tissue or peppers and onions cooked together by saying narrator has similarly irrational dislike for x, y, z. Narrator thinks “actually I have very specific reasons for disliking those things, but of course I didn’t say anything.†This type of scene contains powerful truth, I think Neil Gaiman would love this.

underground by Haruki Murakami

I knew very little about the Sarin attacks before reading Underground. Informative and personal. So difficult to be prepared for every possible terrorist act at all times, there must be a better way to do it than just limiting more and more items on flights, than hiring more and more security personnel.

hardboiled wonderland and the end of the world by Haruki Murakami

I interpreted Hardboiled Wonderland and The End of the World as about the difference between subconscious and conscious. Interesting that when I saw Murakami interviewed during the New Yorker Festival he claimed there is very little conscious intellectual activity on his part during the writing process.

The Difference Engine by Bruce Sterling and William Gibson

The final Gibson work I read, have now read every published writing of his. I really see a lot of influence on Neal Stephenson in this book.

The Stranger by Albert Camus

Re read. Still love the role of the sun in this novel and the writing surrounding it.

The Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka

Most vivid memory of this book: the thrown apple lodged in the narrator’s carapace, rotting for weeks. Revolting.

a wilds sheep chase by Haruki Murakami

Murakami sees A Wild Sheep Chase as his first “real†book, at least the book he would like people to consider his first novel when he really came into his own.

After Dark by Haruki Murakami

Good, though doesn’t come off strongly as a major work. The book has a quiet feel, fitting of late night Tokyo after the trains stop.

Kafka on the Shore by Haruki Murakami

Good, didn’t have the same type of unique impact on me as Murakami’s other work. Knowing that Murakami views his writing the same way he views driving a taxi or carpentry, Kafka on the Shore almost seems like Murakami is trying to perfect and re do some of the themes and ideas touched on in previous works.

money by Martin Amis

Shockingly brilliant, loved the humor and self awareness with which Amis writes here. Largely set in New York too which is slightly fun for me.

Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz

Took Diaz 10 years to write, but absolutely reflects the efforts invested. A masterpiece. Art and literature no doubt, but also appropriately political.

Drown by Junot Diaz

I read this following Brief Wondrous Life, does a good job showing Diaz’s growth as a writer and is strong work on its own.

Children of the Alley by Naguib Mafouz

Wasn’t quite in the appropriate mood while reading this one, plan to read more Mafouz then come back to Children of the Alley

Lolita by Franz Kafka

Had been meaning to read for a long time, and the text totally lived up to my expectations and hopes.

The Visual Display of Quantitative Information by Edward Tufte

Great book, the exact type of book I would like to write but haven’t been able to take the time and effort to put it together myself. I hope a book like this comes out for other types of design.

The Ecology of Building Materials by Bjorn Berge

Surprisingly, disappointingly and frustratingly relevant today despite 1970s publication date.

Time-Saver Standards for Building Types by Joseph De Chiara and Michael Crosbie

Like Visual Display, this is the type of book I could see myself devoting years of my life to perfecting. Extremely comprehensive.

a scanner darkly by Philip K Dick

Distinctly Philip K Dick writing form. The writing is so paranoid, haven’t read anything like it (excepting other Dick works)

Labyrinths by Luis Borges

Comes off almost as outsider art, even more so than with A Scanner Darkly I haven’t read anything like this. Short fiction pieces with no plot or story, almost just setting the scene or environment then ending. Extremely descriptive.

london fields by Marin Amis (half)

Had to return to library unfinished when moving to New York in September to start current job. Read right after finishing Money, so my expectations were extremely high. Honestly seemed almost like another version of Money but with slightly different emphasis… will try again later.

the trial by Franz Kafka (half)

Had to return to library unfinished when quickly moving from New York to CA. Surprisingly readable, was enjoying it a lot. Will finish soon.

Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond (half, in progress)

Awesome in scope, comes off as extremely comprehensive. Theories are suspiciously elegant though. Highly recommended nonetheless.

notes: first six books were read during winter break 07-08. I suspect they were all finished in January, cannot quite remember though. Additionally, I did not include comic books in this list. They would be: Creatures of the Night by Neil Gaiman, both of Gaiman’s two Death comic books, and Year One by Frank Miller. Re read comic books: Gaiman’s Sandman, Mr. Punch, Alan Moore’s Watchmen.

[cjbreed]

i suck at book club

[habia]

I got a copy of The Fairy Tales of Hermann Hesse. at work now but really can't wait to go home and read more. Only got through introduction, editor's note and first page.

others reading this too? I'll probably be done in 5-10 days, but how about we try for some discussion by February 19th?

[landho]

I got a copy of The Fairy Tales of Hermann Hesse. at work now but really can't wait to go home and read more. Only got through introduction, editor's note and first page.

others reading this too? I'll probably be done in 5-10 days, but how about we try for some discussion by February 19th?

habia!

I can begin reading it soon, but I was going to wait till I got to NY (which will be in about three weeks).

Thoughts?

[seraphim]

Lolita by Franz Kafka

Had been meaning to read for a long time, and the text totally lived up to my expectations and hopes.

uhwhat?

nabokov.

[Baeyer-Drewson]

^^hahahaha i would like to read lolita written by kafka though.

[broneck]

Does anyone still subscribe to this? I just picked up Blood Meridian and am looking for intelligent discussion!!

[landho]

I do! And I love Blood Meridian.

Unfortunately, I am participating in a side Book Klub in New York. We read The Great Gatsby recently and are now reading The Unbearable Lightness of Being. I'm reading Dubliners myself right now, but as a group we may read The Last Samurai not too long from now.

[po_boy_fuuma_hatesbargerz]

somebody want to read 'gravity rainbow' by pynchon ? it's lying on my desk staring at me saying 'YOU ARE TOO STUPID'

[Baeyer-Drewson]

^I read a bit of the beginning. Dense as fuck. Will go back to it when I have more time.

The concept of loads of technical knowledge infused throughout a novel really appealled to me... as a concept. In reality it makes for a tough read.

[indesertum]

somebody read ulysses with me. i can't get past page 80 and even then i have little idea what i just read. i feel terribly stupid