Boots

[verb]

I can't even explain how pissed I am that they took my order, charged my credit card and only after I called them (3 weeks after the boots were supposed to arrive) to find out what was going on, they tell me they are not in stock anymore.

That's horrible. What size are you, I'll go look at the store on 61st this weekend.

Also, did you ever receive an order confirmation? I placed an order through Barneys.com a few weeks ago and never received it and never got an e-mail or anything to confirm my purchase. Guess I should check my statement...

[jimmyc]

Hey thanks. I'm a size 44 (but I'll take a size 43... I'm that desperate). Please let me know what you can find. I'll be happy to pay you a finders fee if you find them.

Please PM me and let me know either way.

Thanks again Verb!!!

I did get a confirmation #. I also got an email that assured me they were shipping out last week. All they seemed to care about at customer service was who told me that. They didn't give a shit that I wasn't happy. I told them I'll always get a name from now on since the person your talking to there is most likely lying, just to get you off the phone.

[VDSUPREME]

Can anyone reccomend a slim-profile boots with either side/back zip? Doesn't matter if its laced in front. Not too expensive either, less than 400?

[jet]

Fuuma, I tried on the butteros as well.

They don't compare, glad I got the carpes when I did at the beginning of the year as they are no more.

[mikesduc]

Barney's stores have the B1113 in stock in the anthracite. Same as the black workboot but in black suede. I wish they were getting the brown suede but they are not.

http://item.rakuten.co.jp/crispin/b1113_antrac/

[Tyler]

Tyler, a lot of the posters here are more fashion-forward, which means they will look more runway, less traditional menswear. Nothing wrong with that, in fact most traditionalists don't even have the comprehension to see beyond the "one best way", absolutist approach they were told.

Hey!

I consider myself to be fashion forward for sure! But without being a slave to it or slavishly following trends and I certainly NEVER try to look like a model on a runway! Ever. I pick and choose key pieces or aspects of a look from the runway or from magazines if I want but I don't try to emulate an entire 'look'.

But also, just to come back to you on one small point - you say traditionalists as if it were a dirty word. I am a traditionalist when it comes to certain things - good shoes being one of them. The old maxim mum's used to tell their daughters - "You can judge a man by the shoes he's wearing" - it holds more water than you might think.

Good shoes can make a 'look' IMHO.

The other is with suits. A good suit is crucial and traditionalists like Kilgour make the finest suits money can buy.

These are fashion forward companies but that have deep seated roots in tradition and it's that heritage and expertise than I'm prepared to pay good money for.

Doesn't mean you can't pair a GREAT pair of boots made with the finest leather and work materials money can buy from a company like Crockett and Jones or Edward Green and then pair them with the most fashion forward pair of trousers you can imagine.

Don't knock tradition - it's the artisans that I admire.

Why buy a pair of machine made boots from Carpe Diem or D&G for twice the price of a pair made by hand with the best leathers that can be repaired by the company you bought them from until you or the boots give up the ghost? Once you start looking into traditional clothing and those who supply it you can cherry pick the best of it and team it with your more label driven pieces to great effect.

Just my thoughts. No flaming please!

T

PS. Of course I might be biased as I have just picked up a pair of black lace up boots an hour ago from Crockett and Jones but they are bloody fantastic and beautifully made and I know they'll just get better and better with age and in 10 years time I'll still be able to get the company that made them to repair them...

[Calden]

^ Can you post pics of the boots Tyler?

[Tyler]

Hey

Yup - will post pics as soon as I get home and can take some. Those on the site don't do them justice at all I promise. The leather is gorgeous - incredibly thick but beautifully soft and the quality of the stitching, the lining and so on is just amazing. They honestly make other boots I've had and tried at similar prices look silly. I've only just discovered boots from traditional shoemakers - I would have passed them by myself in the past thinking they were too "old" or wouldn't have my size (I'm a 6) but if you set aside any preconceptions about traditional shoes and actually take a look at them I promise you you'll be amazed. For £280 I think they're a steal I really do. I'm an absolute convert.

Best

T

[Fuuma]

Hey!

I consider myself to be fashion forward for sure! But without being a slave to it or slavishly following trends and I certainly NEVER try to look like a model on a runway! Ever. I pick and choose key pieces or aspects of a look from the runway or from magazines if I want but I don't try to emulate an entire 'look'.

But also, just to come back to you on one small point - you say traditionalists as if it were a dirty word. I am a traditionalist when it comes to certain things - good shoes being one of them. The old maxim mum's used to tell their daughters - "You can judge a man by the shoes he's wearing" - it holds more water than you might think.

Good shoes can make a 'look' IMHO.

The other is with suits. A good suit is crucial and traditionalists like Kilgour make the finest suits money can buy.

These are fashion forward companies but that have deep seated roots in tradition and it's that heritage and expertise than I'm prepared to pay good money for.

Doesn't mean you can't pair a GREAT pair of boots made with the finest leather and work materials money can buy from a company like Crockett and Jones or Edward Green and then pair them with the most fashion forward pair of trousers you can imagine.

Don't knock tradition - it's the artisans that I admire.

Why buy a pair of machine made boots from Carpe Diem or D&G for twice the price of a pair made by hand with the best leathers that can be repaired by the company you bought them from until you or the boots give up the ghost? Once you start looking into traditional clothing and those who supply it you can cherry pick the best of it and team it with your more label driven pieces to great effect.

1) C&J and Edward Green are machine made (very well though), just like pretty much every offer by shoemakers except for say Vass and other very high-end bespoke makers. I’d say, in most cases, the leather quality is inferior to Carpe Diem and the treatments included are less impressive. For example CDiem leathers are usually water resistant and could in theory be machine washed and dried, a process that one of the more traditional companies have yet to replicate, especially considering CDiem leather is a non-plasticky full-grain one like the hides used by Green and co. One area where the more traditional companies fare very well is the use of treatments to add interesting patina to the shoes, I truly respect the ability some makers have to present a complex looking shoe with various hues on display, however Carol Christian Poell’s object-dying technique often end up with treatments that have as much depth as those of traditional companies. You have to understand that makers like Poell, CDiem (Altieri) + continues and Paul Harnden (who apprenticed at John Lobb) are part of an artisanship revival movement but chose to push the envelope on the design front, making products that are unlike anything that came before.

2) I say traditionalists like a dirty word because it has imho, became a restricting factor in most of its proponent’s minds. By that I mean that traditionalists often hold the view that one vision of fashion and some specific looks are superior and that menswear is all about attaining that look. I can see a hint of that in the affirmation that Kilgour represent the apex of suit wear, what if the wearer does not want the highly structured silhouette of this maker? In that sense, and just like the opposing viewpoints between traditional and modern art, it is very much about a set and ordained view of the universe that brings you back to direct representation and an implication of the existence of the metaphysical (God created the universe that way and who are you to question it) versus a chaotic and evolving approach that believes form is not set and that art should not replicate life but imitate its organization but creating forms that have their own systems of logical organization. You can see that in the advices given by people discussing suit silhouettes and how to hide your “weaknesses†and play up your “strengthsâ€, to attain some sort of mythical male figure that is the apex of the look pyramid. A more post-modern approach to design, such as the one espoused by say, Raf Simons, will on the contrary encourage the viewer to experiment with proportions and try different silhouettes, without restricting the wearer to one absolute truth about the look he should achieve.

[Tyler]

Er...am not entirely sure what to say to the above. Take your points about machine made but isn't all leather naturally water resistant? Isn't that the point of leather shoes? As for shoes you can machine wash - ummm...why would you want to machine wash a pair of leather shoes? I agree that advances that genuinely are advances are good ones - but gimmicks?

And how are traditionalists a restricting factor?? The amount of choice in men's clothing now is unbelievable IMHO. Never had it so good. But you know - things that are staples are normally staples for a reason. Leather shoes being one. And a suit with a lapel, two or three buttons and 4 or 5 cuff buttons another. You don't need a lapel anymore for your medals, you can have 5 buttons to di it up if you want and who needs buttons on a cuff anymore? Yet these "traditional" elements have survived - and you know why? Because they work!

I don't buy all this guff about metaphysical representations of anything or pyramids or post-modernism. It's just clothes.

I don't give a damn who designed it, made it or what kind of pyramid it respresents as long as it does highlight my strengths (which is why I don't wear jeans that show my arse crack) - as long as it's well made, looks good (ie fits well and to my body/foot shape) and will last me then I'll have it.

To me - quality is king.

That's it.

T

[Fuuma]

1)Leather is not entirely water resistant as it is a breathing material. For example leather soles don’t fare that well in the rain for that reason but the breathing makes wearing them oh so comfortable. Making it able to endure machine washing is just a sign that wearing them when it is raining (happens quite a lot in the UK) is possible, something that I find quite practical. Leather jackets are the same and this is why you often apply some kind of treatment to make them water-resistant (those spray on cans).

2)To answer your “quality is king†finale, it appears that you did not know the shoes discussed were machine made and I saw in another thread that you mistook full-grain for “grainy surfaceâ€, in that case shouldn’t you learn a little but more about construction and fabrics before saying that some high quality shoes are better made than others. I know that I don’t take such statements as face value and I am, arguable, able to recognize quality garment work at a relatively high level.

3)I did not say traditional designs were a restricting factor, I said that the concept that there is a “one best way†to do things that is often inherent to most traditionalists’ vision of fashion design and other assorted designs and art forms is a paradigm that restricts change. We’re not wearing frock coats and white toupees because someone somewhere had a more progressive vision and accepted otherness as something to be sought after.

4)Thinks that are staples are indeed useful in a wardrobe. Is the reason universal and where, say, Japanese people stupid for not inventing and wearing suits? It all ties up to very cultural factors of status and social roles. Its also interesting to note that due to changes in cut and minor tweaks, even traditional designs do look dated, you just have to look at the boxy cuts and wide lapels on the 40s, or the 60s thinner look that is now coming back as a fashion-forward cut. On the other hand avant-garde garments, like 80s Yohji will often stay fresh and current.

5)Fashion design is a form of design, hence the discussion about the various philosophical paradigms. Modernism, for example, has influenced the way we look at politics, social issues, aesthetics (architecture, design, art, etc) and even relationships, you can’t dismiss looking at the greater picture if you want to have any kind of in-depth understanding of the world we live in, how we got there and be able to discuss it with other people and make sense of current reality. Sure you can live your life fully and be a sharp dresser without understanding this but don’t go around thinking you’ll be able to throw around unfounded affirmations about a reality you don’t comprehend without being called about it.

[Tyler]

Oh gahd - this is what gives fashion a bad name. My only point here was to make an honest opinion about what boots someone might like to try. I didn't think that would start such a debate or that my posts would be pored over with a magnifying glass.

Wasn't expecting top be "called" over saying - why don't you try some quality benchmade shoes and then saying how much I love quality clothes.

Blimey!

But see that you are selling stuff here including products by Carpe Diem so perhaps you have more of an "investment' in these posts than I do.

If anyone who reads my posts wants to check out my honest opinions that's cool by me - if not I guess they can always buy from you right?

[verb]

Can anyone reccomend a slim-profile boots with either side/back zip? Doesn't matter if its laced in front. Not too expensive either, less than 400?

J Lindeberg has a gorgeous pair of boots with a side zip and laces in front. Believe it's right at your price limit (approx $395 or 495, don't recall which). Call the Soho store for info.

[headcoat]

heh i like fuuma but that dude turns the most pedestrian topics into some lofty postmodernist treatise. fashion is serious business.

[Fuuma]

heh i like fuuma but that dude turns the most pedestrian topics into some lofty postmodernist treatise. fashion is serious business.

hahaha, well I like to have serious discussions from time to time. I just feel that when someone presents an unsubstantiated opinion, especially about something that has become common wisdom (high quality English shoes = handmade) he should be told to shut the fuck up, but politely and with some actual facts.

Dressing is not serious business but if fashion design is to get the respect other design areas get, you have to have a strong intellectual foundation to support it. Nobody minds that architecture get discussed in depth, do they?

PS: I'm not selling those CDiem anymore, opted to keep them (should change my sig). I got flooded with PMs here and elsewhere anyways so I don't need to defend the brand in a thread to make a few bucks. I also own a bunch of more traditional footwear...

[tangerine]

Crockett and Jones do some great black lace up boots and they're beautifully made. I always steer clear of fashion boots as invariably they don't last long and are not that well made.

Also, not being funny but why the hell would anyone want a pair of boots you can tuck jeans into for gahd's sake?!?! That's awful. A black pair of boots you tuck jeans into are called wellington boots as far as I'm concerned. Just because a look might look like it works on a catwalk for the 70 odd steps it takes to walk up and down it - it doesn't mean it looks so good on the street.

Come on guys - boots with jeans tucked in???! No no no

Check out Crockett and Jones. Would post pics but not entirely sure how.

Er...am not entirely sure what to say to the above. Take your points about machine made but isn't all leather naturally water resistant? Isn't that the point of leather shoes? As for shoes you can machine wash - ummm...why would you want to machine wash a pair of leather shoes? I agree that advances that genuinely are advances are good ones - but gimmicks?

And how are traditionalists a restricting factor?? The amount of choice in men's clothing now is unbelievable IMHO. Never had it so good. But you know - things that are staples are normally staples for a reason. Leather shoes being one. And a suit with a lapel, two or three buttons and 4 or 5 cuff buttons another. You don't need a lapel anymore for your medals, you can have 5 buttons to di it up if you want and who needs buttons on a cuff anymore? Yet these "traditional" elements have survived - and you know why? Because they work!

I don't buy all this guff about metaphysical representations of anything or pyramids or post-modernism. It's just clothes.

I don't give a damn who designed it, made it or what kind of pyramid it respresents as long as it does highlight my strengths (which is why I don't wear jeans that show my arse crack) - as long as it's well made, looks good (ie fits well and to my body/foot shape) and will last me then I'll have it.

To me - quality is king.

That's it.

T

Oh gahd - this is what gives fashion a bad name. My only point here was to make an honest opinion about what boots someone might like to try. I didn't think that would start such a debate or that my posts would be pored over with a magnifying glass.

Wasn't expecting top be "called" over saying - why don't you try some quality benchmade shoes and then saying how much I love quality clothes.

Blimey!

But see that you are selling stuff here including products by Carpe Diem so perhaps you have more of an "investment' in these posts than I do.

If anyone who reads my posts wants to check out my honest opinions that's cool by me - if not I guess they can always buy from you right?

With due respect, I feel that it is your opinion, presented as universal fact, that gives fashion a bad name.

You don't like jeans tucked into boots; fine. But to make blanket statements such as that it is awful? Rather entrenched point of view, isn't it?

You made some statements about hand-made vs. machine-made and fashion vs. classical that Fuuma questioned, and rather than try to defend your statements with facts, you suddenly decided "it's just clothes."

I am sure that on a more traditionalist board your a priori worldview would be received and applauded comfortably. On this board, though, quite a few of the members subscribe to the more open-minded, experimental and synthetic approach described by Fuuma, though few of us are able to discuss it quite so eloquently.

I encourage you to try to expand your understanding of how clothing design is connected to culture and society in general, as Fuuma has suggested.

[Tyler]

Hey

You guys are absolutely right - I should learn more about machine washable boots before I open my gob.

My bad.

And Fuuma - if you do decide to sell your Carpe Diems as long as they come with machine washing instructions for me to follow, I'll take 'em! Can I still switch to 30?

Can't we get back to this poor guy's original question - what boots would you guys (Fuuma and Tangerine) recommend? Am genuinely interested - this was the point of the thread in the 1st place wasn't it?

T

[Analog]

[tangerine]

...

Can't we get back to this poor guy's original question - what boots would you guys (Fuuma and Tangerine) recommend? Am genuinely interested - this was the point of the thread in the 1st place wasn't it?

T

To recap;

Many agreed the Butteros were the best bang for the buck in the style being discussed, at the price point desired.

malsponge then said, just post cool boots.

malsponge bought Neil Barretts from yoox at his preferred price point.

general boot discussion continued.

my preferences? It seems like there are a lot of options out there right now as many designers are playing around with lace up boots. I personally like the Ann Demeulemeester and Carpe Diems best, but I have also seen really nice ones from Julius, Margiela, and Officine Creative.

[wPeace]

[mikesduc]

I just got these Varvatos today and they are very NICE! Pics don't do them justice at all. I also have the Buttero work boot in black so I'm set for a while in the lace up dept.

http://www.zappos.com/n/p/dp/23626726/c/2529.html

[Carl]

Damn...what are those?

[owl]

Damn...what are those?

http://www.urbanoutfitters.com/urban/catalog/productdetail.jsp?itemdescription=true&itemCount=8&id=13307632&parentid=M_SHOES_BOOTS&sortProperties=+product.marketingPriority,-product.startDate&navCount=2&navAction=poppush&color=21

[VDSUPREME]

1) C&J and Edward Green are machine made (very well though), just like pretty much every offer by shoemakers except for say Vass and other very high-end bespoke makers. I’d say, in most cases, the leather quality is inferior to Carpe Diem and the treatments included are less impressive. For example CDiem leathers are usually water resistant and could in theory be machine washed and dried, a process that one of the more traditional companies have yet to replicate, especially considering CDiem leather is a non-plasticky full-grain one like the hides used by Green and co. One area where the more traditional companies fare very well is the use of treatments to add interesting patina to the shoes, I truly respect the ability some makers have to present a complex looking shoe with various hues on display, however Carol Christian Poell’s object-dying technique often end up with treatments that have as much depth as those of traditional companies. You have to understand that makers like Poell, CDiem (Altieri) + continues and Paul Harnden (who apprenticed at John Lobb) are part of an artisanship revival movement but chose to push the envelope on the design front, making products that are unlike anything that came before.

2) I say traditionalists like a dirty word because it has imho, became a restricting factor in most of its proponent’s minds. By that I mean that traditionalists often hold the view that one vision of fashion and some specific looks are superior and that menswear is all about attaining that look. I can see a hint of that in the affirmation that Kilgour represent the apex of suit wear, what if the wearer does not want the highly structured silhouette of this maker? In that sense, and just like the opposing viewpoints between traditional and modern art, it is very much about a set and ordained view of the universe that brings you back to direct representation and an implication of the existence of the metaphysical (God created the universe that way and who are you to question it) versus a chaotic and evolving approach that believes form is not set and that art should not replicate life but imitate its organization but creating forms that have their own systems of logical organization. You can see that in the advices given by people discussing suit silhouettes and how to hide your “weaknesses†and play up your “strengthsâ€, to attain some sort of mythical male figure that is the apex of the look pyramid. A more post-modern approach to design, such as the one espoused by say, Raf Simons, will on the contrary encourage the viewer to experiment with proportions and try different silhouettes, without restricting the wearer to one absolute truth about the look he should achieve.

Very well said! +rep

[kallun]

1) C&J and Edward Green are machine made (very well though), just like pretty much every offer by shoemakers except for say Vass and other very high-end bespoke makers. I’d say, in most cases, the leather quality is inferior to Carpe Diem and the treatments included are less impressive. For example CDiem leathers are usually water resistant and could in theory be machine washed and dried, a process that one of the more traditional companies have yet to replicate, especially considering CDiem leather is a non-plasticky full-grain one like the hides used by Green and co. One area where the more traditional companies fare very well is the use of treatments to add interesting patina to the shoes, I truly respect the ability some makers have to present a complex looking shoe with various hues on display, however Carol Christian Poell’s object-dying technique often end up with treatments that have as much depth as those of traditional companies. You have to understand that makers like Poell, CDiem (Altieri) + continues and Paul Harnden (who apprenticed at John Lobb) are part of an artisanship revival movement but chose to push the envelope on the design front, making products that are unlike anything that came before.

2) I say traditionalists like a dirty word because it has imho, became a restricting factor in most of its proponent’s minds. By that I mean that traditionalists often hold the view that one vision of fashion and some specific looks are superior and that menswear is all about attaining that look. I can see a hint of that in the affirmation that Kilgour represent the apex of suit wear, what if the wearer does not want the highly structured silhouette of this maker? In that sense, and just like the opposing viewpoints between traditional and modern art, it is very much about a set and ordained view of the universe that brings you back to direct representation and an implication of the existence of the metaphysical (God created the universe that way and who are you to question it) versus a chaotic and evolving approach that believes form is not set and that art should not replicate life but imitate its organization but creating forms that have their own systems of logical organization. You can see that in the advices given by people discussing suit silhouettes and how to hide your “weaknesses†and play up your “strengthsâ€, to attain some sort of mythical male figure that is the apex of the look pyramid. A more post-modern approach to design, such as the one espoused by say, Raf Simons, will on the contrary encourage the viewer to experiment with proportions and try different silhouettes, without restricting the wearer to one absolute truth about the look he should achieve.

Fuumas opinions are very insightful and I agree almost completely. Particulary I agree in that the price of the "non-traditional" makers are largely justified by the exquisite and extensive treatments and styling of the leather. On note though is that the leather used (as bought before treatment) are of cheaper variant than waht is used for EG, Lobb and Foster & Sons upper range at least for Cdiem and Poell (which is not to say that it is poor quality leathers!). The welting of the shoes is in my somewhat limited experience also a little sloppier among the former.

If I could choose freely I would buy a pair of classical EG or Lobb lace up boots give them to a farmer to wear for 10 years and then have them back As this is seldom an opportunity I would probably not go for the classical makers but rather pay a similar price for a shoe that looks good right away.

I co-sign on that Fuumas opinions are very well founded and much appreciated, I am always happy to find a new post to read by you

/TKL

[wEstSidE]

fuuma: i had vry dificult time readin ur post os i gav up. cud u plz explain in simple termz i can understand??? thx i valu ur opinion but i cant reed vry well thx.

[Fuuma]

fuuma: i had vry dificult time readin ur post os i gav up. cud u plz explain in simple termz i can understand??? thx i valu ur opinion but i cant reed vry well thx.

CDiem & Poell shuz = doubleplusgud, nigga!!!

Some choices you can find from 400-500:

Moma (very good prices on yoox)

Buttero (retail prices are under $400, profile like Carpe Diem, no treatments though)

Premiata (Y! japan has a good selection)

N(N): when it shows up on ebay (rarely) the prices can be lower than you'd expect

Neil Barrett

Officine Creatine (Luisaviaroma)

Margiela

Ann Demeulemeester (some of the prices this season are relatively reasonable, ebay prices are good too)

Mihara Yasuhiro (Y!J)

Giorgio Brato (Y!J)

NDC made by hand

Attachment (Y! J)

Julius (Y! J)

Lad Musician (Y! J)

Isamu Katayama Backlash (Y! J)

Fiorentini & Baker (usually good prices in stores and Yoox)

Some traditional stuff that can look rugged enough:

Trickers

Alden

[Crillz]

Alden. I gotta beat my shits up!

[bankershill]

I'm having a hard time finding a pair simliar to the Frye Brando or RW 1914 in an 11E (and simliar price range).

Anyone know of a simliar pair available in this size? Should I size up or try to have a D width stretched?

[LIVENUDEGIRLS]

I considered getting these, but was too paranoid because of another pair of J-shoes I recently purchased--they fell apart after a few wears.