ATTN: Shark. Some questions you may be able to answer

[cheep]

i always wondered if racists wear levi's. i mean, levi strauss was jewish. cone denim which has supplied levi's since the old days is a company run by a jewish familly. i'm pretty sure that some neo-nazi's must wear levi's, right?

i wonder not only if they will eat foods that are ethnic in origin, but if they'll eat foods that are grown/harvested/produced in non-white countries.

^^^ i think eating the fruits of oppression and white dominance is ok in the neo-nazi handbook.

how bout rock music? i mean, rock came from the blues which came from the music of african slaves, right? shouldn't they only listen to richard wagner (who was supposedly quite anti-semetic).

even country music owes a lot to the blues.

as our resident racist, could you help us out?

i guess itsmejt could answer too, seeing as he has a thing for neo nazi music i figure he knows a bit about racisim.

[Double D]

how bout rock music? i mean, rock came from the blues which came from the music of african slaves, right? shouldn't they only listen to richard wagner (who was supposedly quite anti-semetic).

even country music owes a lot to the blues.

Actually at least 50% of credit to the invention of blues goes to a German (JS Bach) for inventing modern tonality and the IV(II)-V-I chord progession. Blues is basically a ham-fisted melding of Western music and instruments with African song with microtonalities shoehorned into a 12-tone system.

So by that logic, the Nazis own half the rights to rock music. Maybe.

[evisu 2000]

isn't shark indian, though?

[Thorns]

I never knew Shark was a racist.

[cheep]

^^shark hates young black men... check the tokenindiankid smokes weed thread for his conversation with OMC.

[cheep]

i love you too jt

[Guest Airjamie]

Actually at least 50% of credit to the invention of blues goes to a German (JS Bach) for inventing modern tonality and the IV(II)-V-I chord progession. Blues is basically a ham-fisted melding of Western music and instruments with African song with microtonalities shoehorned into a 12-tone system.

So by that logic, the Nazis own half the rights to rock music. Maybe.

And yet you still like the acacia strain.

[Double D]

And yet you still like the acacia strain.

What's not to like about an entire album of crushing breakdowns and repetitive lyrics about killing and mutilating whores?

Oh, and to the first person to inevitably claim that all music with breakdowns sucks: a breakdown is just a rhythmic device. Maybe music with constant breakdowns sucks, but that's because it's repetitive rhythmically and tonally (mashing D and A for a whole song/album).

[onemancult]

What's not to like about an entire album of crushing breakdowns and repetitive lyrics about killing and mutilating whores?

because life is better spent actually killing and mutilating whores.

at least that's my take.

[will_i_am]

he still didn't come out yet?

the token indian kush thread blew by now..i thought this would have been the same.

[mizanation]

Actually at least 50% of credit to the invention of blues goes to a German (JS Bach) for inventing modern tonality and the IV(II)-V-I chord progession. Blues is basically a ham-fisted melding of Western music and instruments with African song with microtonalities shoehorned into a 12-tone system.

So by that logic, the Nazis own half the rights to rock music. Maybe.

good points, but i think an equal tempered scale is not very important in blues--in fact, flexibility in the area of tonality is one of marking characteristics of the blues. also, the aspect of african rhythms and swing are distinctly, well, african in nature and didn't come from the nazis.

so, i would say that the white man is responsible for only about 10% of the blues. mostly because he forced africans to the americas as slaves.

and this is coming from a big fan of bach. i would say bach had more influence over jazz than blues.

[denimdestroyedmylife]

thats racist!

[datasupa]

he still didn't come out yet?

the token indian kush thread blew by now..i thought this would have been the same.

well.....shark hasn't logged on since....uh....."N/A"......whatever that means.....

[onemancult]

well.....shark hasn't logged on since....uh....."N/A"......whatever that means.....

uh oh.....

[evisu 2000]

hopefully he's alright...

[Double D]

good points, but i think an equal tempered scale is not very important in blues--in fact, flexibility in the area of tonality is one of marking characteristics of the blues. also, the aspect of african rhythms and swing are distinctly, well, african in nature and didn't come from the nazis.

so, i would say that the white man is responsible for only about 10% of the blues. mostly because he forced africans to the americas as slaves.

and this is coming from a big fan of bach. i would say bach had more influence over jazz than blues.

Well, I did say that blues on paper is a bodged equal temprament representation of African song, but to accredit only 10% to non-black Americans is a little harsh... by that token, you're effectively stating that traditional African song and spirituals are one and the same as blues.

As to Bach having an influence over jazz... well, it entirely depends. If you're looking at chord structures in bebop, certainly, but then roughly everything with distinct diatonic chord progessions owes Bach to a degree. Every period of jazz, as you're probably quite aware, has it's own distinct influences, from 1950s Davis owing a lot to composers who predate Bach to 1960s jazz-funk and fusion taking blues and rock and roll to a far more complex and developed level.

Basic point being, a hell of a lot of modern jazz probably owes even more to black music. I haven't even touched on say, Courtney Pine, who as the UK's biggest jazz figure in at least the last 20 years draws most of his musical influences nowadays from 'black' genres outside of jazz.

Argh, rambling without a point once more.

[Double D]

because life is better spent actually killing and mutilating whores.

at least that's my take.

I dunno, there's no space to two-step (5) in jail.

[mizanation]

Well, I did say that blues on paper is a bodged equal temprament representation of African song, but to accredit only 10% to non-black Americans is a little harsh... by that token, you're effectively stating that traditional African song and spirituals are one and the same as blues.

not the same as the blues, but a huge influence. blues is black american music at its core. there is no denying this. i'm giving the generous 10% because of the reasons you said. the rest is the genius of the people who created the music. of course, it's pointless to try to come up with numbers like this, but it's fun.

As to Bach having an influence over jazz... well, it entirely depends.

bach has a huge direct influence in jazz vs. a secondary influence in blues. the melodic lines in jazz owe a huge debt to bach. most of the great jazz composers were big bach fans. the logic of a jazz line is often greatly influenced by bach-like counterpoint (but with added swing). not to mention, as you said, chord progressions (which actually owe a lot to a great jewish man named gershwin). some jazz cats like bob james favor bach to an extreme.

wow, we could probably have this same conversation about hip hop.

[Double D]

Well, depends on whether the music has chord progressions per se in the traditional diatonic sense. I mean, Milestones is diatonic, but its tonality predates Bach somewhat.

[mizanation]

honestly, i hear bach's influence more in soloing more than chord progressions.

you picked a great song, milestones (the second version, not the more structurally complex bebop version). it's modal. no real chord changes per se. you're right, modes go back to ancient times and are found in tons of cultures all over the world. but listen to what is happening over those modes. take canonball adderly's solo. his intro sounds a lot like a bach line. you can pick out bach in different parts of his solo. you can't play a bebop run without having some bach in it.

[Double D]

Eh, I think that's more an instinctive thing (as a woodwind player myself). Just as when you play piano or guitar, lines tend to take a certain shape when you play intuitively, the same goes for wind and brass instruments. I think the shape of lines is a much more intuitive thing, and whilst I think you give too much credit to natural intuitive music in regard to blues, I think you're overanalysing jazz improvisation rather heavily, especially when you consider the lack of formal music education most of these artists have.

An example of more counterintutive, intellectual saxophone soloing would be John Coltrane... if you look at Giant Steps, the soloing is clearly heavily thought through (and if you listen to multiple versions, perhaps even prerehearsed to a degree), in a manner that doesn't particularly suit the instrument... I would wager, not that I've tried but I might attempt it in a minute, that it is significantly more comfortable to play the constant chord arpeggiations on a piano than on a saxophone.

Basic point is, it's of course hard to avoid Bach when working in a diatonic system, but it's a bit of a leap to suggest direct 'influence'.

[mizanation]

just curious, when you say diatonic system, you mean a system with a modern western tonal system as it's basis? or are you saying diatonic in opposition to chromatic?

i agree with you completely that great jazz improvisation doesn't require a ton of book knowledge--but you have to know what you're playing. i play jazz and i play mostly by ear, but i know how to play. hell, i really can't read too well either.

it doesn't take musical education to hear and play classically influenced lines. you don't even need to hear or study bach to be influenced by him. bird and diz would play through classical drill books for hours on end to get their chops up. most of the great piano players had/have monster classical chops. miles pored over classical scores for hours at the julliard library. they might not have been able to write a techincal paper on what they were doing, but they knew what they were doing.

take a tritone substitution on a basic II-V-I. that's some technical shit that monk, bird and diz figured out cuz it sounded good. later, people wrote books on why it sounds good but to them, it didn't matter why.

about coltrane's solo on giant steps. it's awesome because he played those staggered arpeggios over crazy chord changes. and he made it sound awesome. he pushed the limits of what his horn could do. on the flip side, you can hear poor tommy flanagan trying to keep up--and he's on a piano.

curious, how do you feel about wayne shorter, kenny garrett and woody shaw's use of fourth intervals. do you think it's too intellectual? i think they are using a difficult, technical way to play to make very expressive music.

about bach. definite direct influence in jazz. cats, play his lines, use his counterpoint, copy his embellishments--so much so, it's part of the language of jazz, just like the blues is. part of being a good jazz player is playing bach. every trumpet player studies the arban book--tons of bach in there. every piano player plays bach when they are learning the instrument. bach, and classical music's influence on jazz, especially post-swing jazz is really unavoidable.

the reason why i downplay bach's influence on blues is because when they were figuring out the blues, they weren't listening or playing bach. and, like i said before, bach's main influences--intricate counterpuntal lines, strict tempered scale, etc. are not that huge of a deal in blues, but it is a big deal in jazz.