Japanese denim and Levi...what do you think...HYPE or FACT

[Neilfuji]

what's interesting is that Neil you say that the small producers are being shut out - i'd have imagined that the domestic market in japan is large enough to keep the small guys alive.

also, how would such hype hurt the little companies? i had no idea...

you have mentioned the levi's thing but is it these law suits that are hurting, or the focus/hype that's being cast on the bigger producers as a result?

Hello T,

Japan is a VERY hard market there are more dependent than ever on export business.

this kind of negitive news can and has damaged there business, it more the store buyer fear of 'Levis Lawsuits' and other bigger companies attacking the source of the product, they will and have been switching to safer production

Neil

[mr.indigo]

Well I still disagree. When the designers at Ironheart, for example, were given their brief it would have been something like - we want to recreate the details from the famous Levis branding putting our own spin/intepretation on it. i.e. be creative within these tight confines.

Their new brief is a black sheet of paper.

Now I could come with ideas based around two things pulling apart a pair of jeans until the cows come home - two cows coming home pulling a pair of jeans for example. But a blank canvas requires more thought - maybe some of these companies will be looking at their brand identity in a different way now, maybe they will want to come up with something that really differentiates themselves from other brands, I don't know. But whatever they do they will HAVE to be more creative than they have been in the past when working within the confines of producing an homage to the Levis brand.

[Neilfuji]

Well I still disagree. When the designers at Ironheart, for example, were given their brief it would have been something like - we want to recreate the details from the famous Levis branding putting our own spin/intepretation on it. i.e. be creative within these tight confines.

Their new brief is a black sheet of paper.

Now I could come with ideas based around two things pulling apart a pair of jeans until the cows come home - two cows coming home pulling a pair of jeans for example. But a blank canvas requires more thought - maybe some of these companies will be looking at their brand identity in a different way now, maybe they will want to come up with something that really differentiates themselves from other brands, I don't know. But whatever they do they will HAVE to be more creative than they have been in the past when working within the confines of producing an homage to the Levis brand.

Hello Mr Indigo,

sorry but i have to do this.....

1, there is no 'designers' or 'design team' at most of these small labels, so no brief would be handed down.... it a super small company so the owner is the tea boy as well

2, I have alway found the 'Levis rip off' boring, but Jeans were born for need not design, a simple garment growing in 'design' through use.

3, I agree, that the two animals pulling a pair of jeans aparrt is a sad old piece of crap, in fact it never happened in the way we've been told and would you like to try that now with a pair of Levis? Sweet Orr (1895) used four men pulling apart a pair of there work pants, up untill the late 1990's over 100 years and they NEVER had a problem with Levis, in fact there billboard in NYC was bigger than Levis in the 1950's, with logo taking pride of place.

4, forget about it, it's time to move on

Neil

+ can we stick to thread a little?????

[horriblyjollyjinx]

Well I still disagree. When the designers at Ironheart, for example, were given their brief it would have been something like - we want to recreate the details from the famous Levis branding putting our own spin/intepretation on it. i.e. be creative within these tight confines.

Their new brief is a black sheet of paper.

Now I could come with ideas based around two things pulling apart a pair of jeans until the cows come home - two cows coming home pulling a pair of jeans for example. But a blank canvas requires more thought - maybe some of these companies will be looking at their brand identity in a different way now, maybe they will want to come up with something that really differentiates themselves from other brands, I don't know. But whatever they do they will HAVE to be more creative than they have been in the past when working within the confines of producing an homage to the Levis brand.

But the lawsuit is only about the red tab, arcuate, and the patch. It is not about the actual design of the garment itself. Ironheart is still inspired by Levi's and vintage jeans.

What I don't understand is why you want extreme niche brands like these to change and be more creative, when what they're all about is history.

Didn't you first come to know about Sugarcane because they were reproductions with a twist? So is every other brand and no one has had trouble coming up with things to differentiate them from the rest.

To me what you're saying is almost like buying a cat and then complain that it can't bark.

If you find these brands uninspiring, look elsewhere. Extreme creativity is not what they're about. You sure can NOT criticize any of the brands for being unoriginal because they never attempted to be.

[Neilfuji]

Hello

CAn we please stay on Thread...

it's not about who did what to who...

it's about the HYPE and how it effected the way you all shoped and how you now feel about J-Denim and the stores

Neil

[denimdestroyedmylife]

hahaha at neil trying to keep superfuture on topic

well, i did not buy b/c of hype/fear-----though i usually don't need much of an excuse. i guess i am curious to see how the denim companies rebuild after the LEVIzilla razed the landscape.

jp denim companies are going to be thinking twice about entering the US market after this debacle-----actually i KNOW that is the case with at least one company, but i can't reveal my source (heh-heh-heh)

[Joe E Taleo]

I did not do a panic buy. I have a three cool japanese levis inspired jeans already, the 1947SC, Oni Reds, and a pair of Blue and Grays (elephants tearing apart jeans, and DUBBLE on the red tag). I did do a panic buy on the 47s when History Preservation jacked their prices two(? or so) years ago, getting them through djrajio.

The fact is the denim is the important part, and as has been discussed, I'm sure the small companies will come up with interesting designs.

[Flathead]

Hi,

There's been a lot of talk about the Levi/Japanese denim "lawsuits'

I was wondering if it made any of you buy quicker and if so what did you buy and did you feel the price or the product or service was hyped because of the 'lawsuits' ?

did you feel the price you paid was level with the Japanese market or over played

was there any unfair trading or wrong doing over the matter

just asking

Neil

I sell Ironheart (and soon Flathead) in Europe and demand for Ironheart has leapt since the "lawsuits". My prices have remained unchanged.

[Denim Phenom]

I bought a pair of S5000VX because I wanted a new pair of jeans to swap with my SC41966Ns. I like my 66s, but I saw pictures of people wearing the 5000s and since they are a heavier denim than my 66s, I thought i'd try them.

I bought them through 2nd because I want the red tab and arcuates, they are cheaper than paying for American mark ups, and I like ordering through Rakuten stores.

I have a pair of SC41947As and SD-103s (tab and arcuates) that I rarely wear. 47s too baggy in the legs, 103s too tight in the waist.

I just wanted a new pair of jeans to swap out. Hype had nothing to do with it.

[tweeds]

hahaha at neil trying to keep superfuture on topic

neil is standing firm!

Flathead, out of curiosity what are some of your Iron Heart prices, and did your new customers know about the suit (ie. were they from superfuture, or elsewhere)?

very interesting responses here...

[Flathead]

neil is standing firm!

Flathead, out of curiosity what are some of your Iron Heart prices, and did your new customers know about the suit (ie. were they from superfuture, or elsewhere)?

very interesting responses here...

tweedlesinpink. Go to www.ironheart.co.uk for pricing. Some knew and were desperate to get a pair before the changes are implemented and others were unaware. Basically a mix of super and non-superfuture

[tweeds]

^ so basically, nothing out of the ordinary apart from an increased volume...

btw, nice clean website!

[the wit of the staircase]

i bought a pair. i was going to buy them eventually anyway. i spent way more time thinking about it than i should have. i felt silly at the time. i still feel silly.

[poly800rock]

did flathead have a european presence as well before self edge started carrying them in the states?

[Flathead]

did flathead have a european presence as well before self edge started carrying them in the states?

Kiya and I met with the guys from Flathead Japan together in LA in December. At that meeting, Kiya agreed rights for North America and I agreed exclusive distributor rights for Europe and basically any other part of the world that Flathead are not currently selling into. I have had exclusive rights for Ironheart for about 18 months, I have granted Self Edge exclusive rights for Ironheart for North America.

[Neilfuji]

Kiya and I met with the guys from Flathead Japan together in LA in December. At that meeting, Kiya agreed rights for North America and I agreed exclusive distributor rights for Europe and basically any other part of the world that Flathead are not currently selling into. I have had exclusive rights for Ironheart for about 18 months, I have granted Self Edge exclusive rights for Ironheart for North America.

sorry to ask but who are you and your agency?

Neil

[sneakeraddict]

Neil, sounds like you know a lot of these small Japanese denim producing companies, mills, weavers etc.

Why don't you encourage them to join Superfuture and start a service in the same way Ande Whall has.

That would be hot.

P.S. I dont think I understand the nature of the question? Are you saying Japanese brands like Samurai are overated / too hyped?

[Neilfuji]

Hello Sneaker,

No, sorry icant encorage them to do anything, i may know a fair few, but ther do there business there way

what I'm asking is was the lawsuit over hyped? did it make any one buy before they were ready or buy when they would not have normal do so? and do you feel it has changed the way we look at Japanese denim?

as for the small producers, mill and such, from our point of view that would be great but most are very small family run buiness who have only worked with a few other companies and like it that way, even after over 20 years of traveling to and deal with I'm still treated like an outsider by some of the older companies, some have histories going back hundreds of years, they see no reason to change and if fact I have no wish for them to do so.....

a good fabric is hard to find and a good weaver even harder

Neil

[justiz2]

The lawsuit did push me into buying a pair of SC40401A direct from Japan. It was in my shopping list, just that the purchase was pushed ahead as I was afraid that I'd lose out on the tabs. Next on the list would be a pair of S5000BK, but I guess that'll have to wait for my finances to stabilise

[ruprecht]

yeah, ditto, panic pushed me to get a new pair of SD101s, not that i regret it. i'm keeping my eye's open for S5000BKs too.

in fact, i find myself looking at random stuff on supermarket a lot more now... need to check myself i guess.

[poly800rock]

maybe you shouldn't write this...

[ericdw]

deleted... but i thought it'd be fine. a company wouldn't be doing anything wrong if they're not selling in a place where the trademark is enforced...

[Neilfuji]

I sell Ironheart (and soon Flathead) in Europe and demand for Ironheart has leapt since the "lawsuits". My prices have remained unchanged.

Thank you Flathead.....

this is what I wanted from this thread.

[ordo]

When the lawsuits came down I initially thought I would never get the 40400Ns that I had been waiting on, but then went ahead and got some through 2000db. I would definitely have waited a while longer.

[Neilfuji]

deleted... but i thought it'd be fine. a company wouldn't be doing anything wrong if they're not selling in a place where the trademark is enforced...

sorry,

what was deleted?

[parachutes]

looks like things are starting to take effect in japan too.

klax-on stated their next shipment of flatheads will be without the details concerned with the lawsuit.

http://www.rakuten.ne.jp/gold/klax-on/

[tweeds]

sorry,

what was deleted?

just news from Toshiko of samurai

[edmond]

hey tip what news sorry i just want to know cause i tried ordering from them but they kindda pushed me aside.. dont know why,,

[khaltire]

Aw what was the news from samurai? Remember originally in the lawsuit thread I posted what Toshiko said? Could someone PM it to me, it would save me the hassle of emailing her (dont wanan bother her if shes already updated the situation)

[Neilfuji]

sorry i think I missed this infomation so how...can you PM me too

Neil