Japanese denim and Levi...what do you think...HYPE or FACT

[diewhitegirls]

i was just talkin to the guys at deep sleep in philly yesterday about their sugar cane account, and they said that levis is also goin after US companies like seven for their pocket stitching and stuff...

Exactly. Levis has sued for copyright infringement more than any other company in the world...over 100 times, as a matter of fact. This is nothing new.

[jonsan]

Does anyone that posts here know for certain that the Levis trademarks are not legally enforceable in Japan, in particular the arcuate?

The has been posted in a different thread well before the Levis snafu but in the Lightning Magazine #28 (denim style book 2) all of the photos of denim by the offending companies conspicuously do not show the arcuate stitching on the pockets. The leather patches are shown, though. There is also a small section titled "museum" that shows worn in samples from various brands any and brand that has an arcuate similar to the Levis has it covered up with an orange box denoting the model number. The Ligntning denim book #1 shows the arcuates. Maybe the reason for the omission of the arcuates is mentioned in the magazine, but I can't read it. And Lightning magazine is published with a primarily Japanese readership in mind. Of course, this did not stop the companies from making jeans with arcuates, tabs, etc.

And for the record, I did purchase two pairs of jeans that I would have done at a later date because of the Levis action.

[wEstSidE]

btw guys you can't still buy crack at BiG unless you get old stock. samurai now has clean back pockets and oni is coming up with something else inspired by japan (maybe flag-related? but that would be kinna ripping off sda).

[viv1984viv]

to be honest a while ago I wanted a pair of levi because I had never owned a pair, and thought what with buying so many items inspired by them it would be nice to own the original. Now, because of all this ive heard so many bad things about levi ( the visble and non visible qualitys, etc ) that I would rather buy from a small company than a big bully. I dont think one should be able to trademark someting as general as a tab, acurates and patch design yeah. I can understand how annoying repro brands are for levi. Especially knowing that people who want excellent jeans dont buy levi, I just think its pretty petit to want to stop Sugar cane et al using details that actually made me want levi, especially seeing as these brands probably have sod all market share.

[Dick Danger]

www.blueingreensoho.com

I guess someone was going to do that.

[tweeds]

let's try to keep this from turning into another levi's witch hunt about copyrights etc, and keep this focused on the feedback.

i think in retrospect it's easy to draw conclusions - when we were caught up with all the noise it was very hard to step out, observe and think clearly.

but i do think that all in all alot of the indignation towards levi's is unwarranted and overhyped.

[kiya]

One thing to keep in mind for those that think that these companies are going to continue producing the same product for the Japanese market is that you're wrong. Iron Heart has already settled out of court and money has exchanged hands, no more pocket stitchings and tabs for domestic OR import use. Flat Head (which wasn't even named in the lawsuit) has already dropped the tab and is shipping product to it's own stores in Japan with no stitching or the new stitching. Imperial which wasn't named in the lawsuit either, has created a new leather tab, blah blah blah..

so basically, the companies ARE changing their entire line, not just their export lines.

[Neilfuji]

Does anyone that posts here know for certain that the Levis trademarks are not legally enforceable in Japan, in particular the arcuate?

The has been posted in a different thread well before the Levis snafu but in the Lightning Magazine #28 (denim style book 2) all of the photos of denim by the offending companies conspicuously do not show the arcuate stitching on the pockets. The leather patches are shown, though. There is also a small section titled "museum" that shows worn in samples from various brands any and brand that has an arcuate similar to the Levis has it covered up with an orange box denoting the model number. The Ligntning denim book #1 shows the arcuates. Maybe the reason for the omission of the arcuates is mentioned in the magazine, but I can't read it. And Lightning magazine is published with a primarily Japanese readership in mind. Of course, this did not stop the companies from making jeans with arcuates, tabs, etc.

And for the record, I did purchase two pairs of jeans that I would have done at a later date because of the Levis action.

the history of Levi on this is......long and boring

They have a legal worldwide trademark which is actionable in Japan but they will rattle the box, demand we remove our 'trademarked' bits and a small payment for the upset we gave them and we all go on our way a little pissed at Levi and dirty from being close to them and that is that.

it been there system for years the only people who came close to beating them is Lee in the 1930 over a pocket and tab trademark, Lee counter claimed something that is sealed in the court papers and Levi backed down, having worked for VF and Levi I could guess at what that is but I do not want to be sued, if you ever get to see a copy of 'vintage denim' by david little it pretteasy to see the closeness of there product lines and the time scale

Levi have many trademarks and use them to keep them safe from little people who try....

it's odd to go after stores like they did.

but again I just want to hear how you all feel about the hype not Levis........

Neil

[Neilfuji]

One thing to keep in mind for those that think that these companies are going to continue producing the same product for the Japanese market is that you're wrong. Iron Heart has already settled out of court and money has exchanged hands, no more pocket stitchings and tabs for domestic OR import use. Flat Head (which wasn't even named in the lawsuit) has already dropped the tab and is shipping product to it's own stores in Japan with no stitching or the new stitching. Imperial which wasn't named in the lawsuit either, has created a new leather tab, blah blah blah..

so basically, the companies ARE changing their entire line, not just their export lines.

Kiya

Understand your point but this thread is about how the info you released effected the buyers of the jeans and there views on Japanese denim and how the whole thing was handled and if it push along the product....

thank you for your posts, but please lets stay on topic

Neil

[sneakeraddict]

One thing to keep in mind for those that think that these companies are going to continue producing the same product for the Japanese market is that you're wrong. Iron Heart has already settled out of court and money has exchanged hands, no more pocket stitchings and tabs for domestic OR import use. Flat Head (which wasn't even named in the lawsuit) has already dropped the tab and is shipping product to it's own stores in Japan with no stitching or the new stitching. Imperial which wasn't named in the lawsuit either, has created a new leather tab, blah blah blah..

so basically, the companies ARE changing their entire line, not just their export lines.

Sorry, but I must stress you (repeating to us what Levis had told you) repeatedly told us all worldwide sales would stop, and all offending products would be removed after a certain January date.

This has not happened, aside from the two US stores.

Surely you can see why some people are now a bit sceptical about the rest of the info.

Re: Ironheart and Flathead removing their tabs.

A bully at school says to a small kid "I'm gonna break your legs unless you give me your dinner money every day this week".

The small kid gives the bully his dinner money every day that week.

The bully never had any intention of breaking the small kids legs anyway, but hey, he got a good result.

Levis has absolutely no power on the red tab thingy in Japan, otherwise it would have been dropped a looooooong time ago on these brands.

Those companies that have changed, are probably just doing so because its less hassle to do so and never want to hear from Levis again. This is not at all the same as saying they have to change.

[Panda-san]

I did a "panic buy" on a pair of Samurais. I'd wanted a pair for a while, but they were actually behind two pairs of LVC on my "to buy" list. I decided to get them with tab and arcs while I still had the chance. Maybe I'll pic up the LVCs someday.

[Neilfuji]

Sorry, but I must stress you (repeating to us what Levis had told you) repeatedly told us all worldwide sales would stop, and all offending products would be removed after a certain January date.

This has not happened, aside from the two US stores.

Surely you can see why some people are now a bit sceptical about the rest of the info.

Re: Ironheart and Flathead removing their tabs.

A bully at school says to a small kid "I'm gonna break your legs unless you give me your dinner money every day this week".

The small kid gives the bully his dinner money every day that week.

The bully never had any intention of breaking the small kids legs anyway, but hey, he got a good result.

Levis has absolutely no power on the red tab thingy in Japan, otherwise it would have been dropped a looooooong time ago on these brands.

Those companies that have changed, are probably just doing so because its less hassle to do so and never want to hear from Levis again. This is not at all the same as saying they have to change.

I do understand and if fact this has hurt my business too, but please can we saty on topic......

who mis lead who, is not as important as the effects it's had on you, as the end-user, you're views on this are the ones we need to move past it and open a better denim and understanding of what makes it, better to you.

Did the way you found out effect the way you bought your denim, was the fact US store were in on the 'law suit' something you felt pushed your buying?

thi si the point now, the Levis/Japanese denim stuff is a footnote to what you feel about it.

in Japan we don't look to blame someone we look to fix and move on

I'm happy to talk about what you felt but please no more on this Levi/Self edge witch hunt

yes Levis are a big company and yes there is still product out there which should not be there, but there always will be,

tell us what it made you think and do

Neil

[Neilfuji]

I did a "panic buy" on a pair of Samurais. I'd wanted a pair for a while, but they were actually behind two pairs of LVC on my "to buy" list. I decided to get them with tab and arcs while I still had the chance. Maybe I'll pic up the LVCs someday.

thank you Panda, someone who get it....

[Dick Danger]

I got it, but I didn't run out and drop $2k on jeans.

[truestorytravis]

I definitely bought a pair of Samurais. I wasn't really expecting to buy any jeans so the whole law suit situation sparked a panic which led to my purchase. I had this kind of "end of an era" feeling, which I now think was really just a pretext for getting another pair of jeans with a red tab and arcuates.

I'll be honest, I really like the tab and its presence or absence carries weight in my purchasing decisions. Unbeknownst to me, however, the pair I bought already had the red tab removed. . . maybe that was karmic punishment for making the impulse buy. Check my siggy.

edit to address the other parts of the question: No I don't think the jeans themselves were over-hyped and I don't think I was treated unfairly in terms of price. I would have liked to have been informed that I was purchasing jeans which already had the tab removed, but now I don't see it as that big of a deal.

[Dick Danger]

That would bother me. If I ordered a pair of jeans and wasn't told that the tab had already been cut off I would have been very pissed.

[Panda-san]

^ Agreed. When I ordered the Sams, I called SE to see if they carried the model I was looking for. They didn't, so I went ahead and bought from BiG. No offense to Kiya, but I'm glad I did. I would've felt compelled to return the jeans if they'd come with the tab cut off, and I'd have been pissed if in the time it took to do that, BiG had sold out of their tab'd jeans.

As far as pricing, they were regular price at BiG, so I don't feel like I got ripped off, or that BiG tried to take advantage of the situation. Yes, I had to buy sooner than I'd planned, but it was the same amount of money I would've eventually spent anyway.

[truestorytravis]

I saw in the Levi's law suit thread that Self Edge would accept returns from people who weren't informed that their jeans would have the red tab cut off, so no big deal. Right now, I'm trying to sell them in Supermarket, but if I can't they're going back to Self Edge. I figured if someone here wanted them, that would be just as easy for me as sending them back and less of a hassle for S.E. as well. I shouldn't have bought them anyway

[poly800rock]

does anyone really know what's happening with Studio D' Artisans and samurai in particular? I don't think people have talked about what those 2 brands have really said.

I didn't buy anything, I've got my fair share already, and was already planning on buying a pair of natural indigo oni's anyways, so no purchases for me. I kind of understand the situation that a lot of people were going through....why not buy more?

[truestorytravis]

I talked to the woman at BiG about this Poly. I asked specifically about the new Samurai s5000bk coming out and whether they would have tabs and arcs in Japan. Although our conversation was a bit labored (she was difficult to understand), I gathered that new jeans in Japan would have the tab and arcs intact. Reliable source? I don't know.

[Panda-san]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't certain Samurai models have Lee-style stitching? If Samurai wanted to keep stitching their pockets, but avoid trouble with Levis, couldn't they just use Lee-style stitching on all their models?

[mikesduc]

It made me buy quicker but I don't see it as hype. Certainly not from BIG and I don't see how it helped SE. What if Kiya hadn't said anything. People would have been pissed at him for not letting them know they might not be able to get the product they wanted. So from all angles he was in a pinch. Personally I went on a splurge but that's just my nature so I used it as an excuse to buy. I now have enough jeans to last me a lifetime.

I'm looking at it as my weight maintenance plan. There's no way I can gain weight now. I can't afford it.

[Dick Danger]

I'm looking at it as my weight maintenance plan. There's no way I can gain weight now. I can't afford it.

Right there with you.

[Neilfuji]

^ Agreed. When I ordered the Sams, I called SE to see if they carried the model I was looking for. They didn't, so I went ahead and bought from BiG. No offense to Kiya, but I'm glad I did. I would've felt compelled to return the jeans if they'd come with the tab cut off, and I'd have been pissed if in the time it took to do that, BiG had sold out of their tab'd jeans.

As far as pricing, they were regular price at BiG, so I don't feel like I got ripped off, or that BiG tried to take advantage of the situation. Yes, I had to buy sooner than I'd planned, but it was the same amount of money I would've eventually spent anyway.

I saw in the Levi's law suit thread that Self Edge would accept returns from people who weren't informed that their jeans would have the red tab cut off, so no big deal. Right now, I'm trying to sell them in Supermarket, but if I can't they're going back to Self Edge. I figured if someone here wanted them, that would be just as easy for me as sending them back and less of a hassle for S.E. as well. I shouldn't have bought them anyway

I talked to the woman at BiG about this Poly. I asked specifically about the new Samurai s5000bk coming out and whether they would have tabs and arcs in Japan. Although our conversation was a bit labored (she was difficult to understand), I gathered that new jeans in Japan would have the tab and arcs intact. Reliable source? I don't know.

It made me buy quicker but I don't see it as hype. Certainly not from BIG and I don't see how it helped SE. What if Kiya hadn't said anything. People would have been pissed at him for not letting them know they might not be able to get the product they wanted. So from all angles he was in a pinch. Personally I went on a splurge but that's just my nature so I used it as an excuse to buy. I now have enough jeans to last me a lifetime.

I'm looking at it as my weight maintenance plan. There's no way I can gain weight now. I can't afford it.

I definitely bought a pair of Samurais. I wasn't really expecting to buy any jeans so the whole law suit situation sparked a panic which led to my purchase. I had this kind of "end of an era" feeling, which I now think was really just a pretext for getting another pair of jeans with a red tab and arcuates.

I'll be honest, I really like the tab and its presence or absence carries weight in my purchasing decisions. Unbeknownst to me, however, the pair I bought already had the red tab removed. . . maybe that was karmic punishment for making the impulse buy. Check my siggy.

edit to address the other parts of the question: No I don't think the jeans themselves were over-hyped and I don't think I was treated unfairly in terms of price. I would have liked to have been informed that I was purchasing jeans which already had the tab removed, but now I don't see it as that big of a deal.

Hello all,

thank you for you input, all good points and well posted.

I understand that through this and his work at Self Edge Kiya has a better profile on here and in the US denim market, it guys like him that build the product image and well done to him.

but the point is the HYPE around the 'lawsuits' was a force to make you buy quicker, in a nice way of say it at a slow point in retail you spent a lot more than you would normally, I do not want this to turn in to a 'slag fest' on anyone or company, so many have benfited from your shopping.....

which is why I posted this thread, I wanted to know how you feel after the hype had gone, Japanese denim is not just 'Levi repos' it's an older business than Levi, the first fabric that could be called denim (heavy rough cotton, Indigo dyed) has been used in Japan since before Christ, ever been to a Japanese fish bar? the door is a indigo dyed cotton with a fish design....Japan invented denim. the bigest worry in the industry is the negitive effect this kind of thing would have on the whole business.

it's bigger than a few labels, there are hundreds of samll denim producers in Japan, sadly few still use the Japanese mills, mainly due to lack of skilled weavers over the last few years same goes for the double harvested indigos....

Did this 'hype' change the way you looked at Japanese denim and the way you bought it?

Neil

[mr.indigo]

I agree with an earlier poster, I see at as an end of an era. Overall I think this is a good thing as we can expect even more creativity and originality from the manufacturers effected. However I did mark the occasion by rush purchasing a pair of Ironhearts with tabs, arcuates and patch intact - i'm going to miss the two motorcycles logo on the patch.

On the downside, as you point out Neil, there may be casualties with some of the smaller producers. It may be a naive hope but perhaps with all thats happened some of these 'micro' manufacturers could get a bit more exposure on boards like this as denim lovers seek beyond repro perfection. Could be a brave new world.

[tweeds]

what's interesting is that Neil you say that the small producers are being shut out - i'd have imagined that the domestic market in japan is large enough to keep the small guys alive.

also, how would such hype hurt the little companies? i had no idea...

you have mentioned the levi's thing but is it these law suits that are hurting, or the focus/hype that's being cast on the bigger producers as a result?

[horriblyjollyjinx]

does anyone really know what's happening with Studio D' Artisans and samurai in particular? I don't think people have talked about what those 2 brands have really said.

I didn't buy anything, I've got my fair share already, and was already planning on buying a pair of natural indigo oni's anyways, so no purchases for me. I kind of understand the situation that a lot of people were going through....why not buy more?

Samurai will be the same in Japan but export models will be different of course. I would guess that it's the same thing with SDA.

There are three brands that are obviously changing worldwide and in the case of Flat Head, that's enough to make me buy a pair of jeans, because that arcuate provides so much hilarty in my opinion.

[horriblyjollyjinx]

I agree with an earlier poster, I see at as an end of an era. Overall I think this is a good thing as we can expect even more creativity and originality from the manufacturers effected. However I did mark the occasion by rush purchasing a pair of Ironhearts with tabs, arcuates and patch intact - i'm going to miss the two motorcycles logo on the patch.

On the downside, as you point out Neil, there may be casualties with some of the smaller producers. It may be a naive hope but perhaps with all thats happened some of these 'micro' manufacturers could get a bit more exposure on boards like this as denim lovers seek beyond repro perfection. Could be a brave new world.

seriously, this "push creativity and originality" thing is a complete nonsense. there was nothing keeping any brand from using red tabs or any other detail. they used them because that was what the customer, I and many others, wanted.

If anything, not being allowed to use certain details in your designs would hinder creativity.

I love the small details of these brands, it's pretty much the detailing that makes me decide which brand to buy from. I love the skulls on Skull's tabs, the pigs pulling apart jeans on SDA's patches, the helicopters on FOB's etc etc.

You may not think that this is important and that's fine, but don't mention words such as creativity and originality.

[mr.indigo]

I love the small details on these brands too but now this lawsuit is in place they're going to have to come up with new small details therefore they will have to 'create' and be 'original'. I dont see why you think this is complete nonsense.

[horriblyjollyjinx]

I love the small details on these brands too but now this lawsuit is in place they're going to have to come up with new small details therefore they will have to 'create' and be 'original'. I dont see why you think this is complete nonsense.

because it is complete nonsense. the only value that can be placed in the changing of details is completely subjective, you can not in any way motivate why Ironheart's new W-stitch is more(or less, for that matter) creative and original than their old stitching, in a way that is not open for personal opinion and interpretation.

Also, the magnitude of what can be described as more creative is completely arbitrary; is changing the color of a tab creative, is coming up with new stitching creative, or do you need to completely leave the 5 pocket jeans model to really be """"""creative""""""? An extra leg and no pockets, would that be creative?

Therefore it is completely meaningless to discuss creativity and thus the statement that this would promote creativity and originality is nonsense.