Levi's takes on Japanese Denim Resellers and Manufacturers

[truestorytravis]

cult, I like your postive attitude and I've reconsidered my original opinons on this whole thing. Although its unfortunate that the companies we know and love are in this trouble, I think that this is a good time for a bit of brand restructuring; I was getting just a little tired of all the Levi's nostalgia. Personally I'm looking forward to what these companies will have to offer if they survive this debacle. Think about it--all the new patches, pocket designs, etc. With luck these companies will bring us even more things to love and obsess over.

[cultpop 0217]

It's trademarks that Levi's claim are being infringed. The arcuate and the two horse patch are trademarked in Japan - I have been told that the red tag isn't.

I'm sure SC and other knew they were sailing close to the wind, and I imagine there's not a lot they can do.

TO be fair to Levi's this isn't new. Their rigid enforcement of their trademarks has contributed to Levi's survival as a company. But I wish they would put as much effort into upholding the quality of their LVC range as they have on this legal action. Many people have turned to Japanese competitors precisely because LVC don't produce the models, or the finishes, that people want.

exactly. if levis was making a quality product the japanese repro industry would not have sprung up in the first place. and if they have no desire to make a top shelf or "romantic" repro why not let someone else do it? give a few of these companies the opportunity to license some of the details instead of acting like fascist punks. and to go after the retailers is just absolute shite. its just sad that they dont seem to be doing this to protect their 'legacy" but rather their bottom line. it's like when disney made that preschool take the paintings of mickey and pluto off the walls.

are levi's as a company within their rights?

sure.

is their a better way they could have handled this situation?

definately.

[poly800rock]

will ande whall start making repros? arcuates, and leather patches of thumbs pulling jeans apart, red to yellow tabs. maybe not

he should do a few just to fuck with em....

[BTT]

Levis is just mad cuz they be styling on them.

Well, I think we should all help out Kiya, and order a shit load of denim right now because there will be a couple weeks where they will be low on stock.

[drapygo]

Man, I was only able to obtain SC1947, and this is without the arcuates. We should all wear T-Shirts with "LEVI'S suck!"

[red]

i have no problem with repro companies staring anew. infact, i look forward to their designs. unless they start making onoxious seagulls spanning the entire rear of the jeans.

i just hate levis. fucking bullshit. nobody should buy their shit. theyve officially sold their soul.

[poly800rock]

let's not forget about Gordon...and BIG...shit...i'll call up tomorrow to see what he's got left..

[40ozprophet]

so much for canes at deep sleep eh poly? Fuck

[GoodHustle]

The jeans are back up on BiG...and someone at the store said that they weren't sure when they're going back down.

[cultpop 0217]

cult, I like your postive attitude and I've reconsidered my original opinons on this whole thing. Although its unfortunate that the companies we know and love are in this trouble, I think that this is a good time for a bit of brand restructuring; I was getting just a little tired of all the Levi's nostalgia. Personally I'm looking forward to what these companies will have to offer if they survive this debacle. Think about it--all the new patches, pocket designs, etc. With luck these companies will bring us even more things to love and obsess over.

exactly. get off the levi's nostalgia and develop their own identity. i mean in the history of denim the japanese have probably been consistantly the highest quality (at least in the last 20 years or so) so they should stop giving levi's anymore undeserved recognition and respect.

this may just be the dawn of a new renaissance in denim. the best denim makers in the world being forced to up the ante and step out from the shadow and stranglehold that levi's has held for too long imo. i for one am excited to see what kind of iconography the japanese market can come up with now. i mean nudie, dior, and even ande whall have done alright branding without referencing or outright copying so why cant samurai?

[Blanc0]

Wouldn't YOU want to protect YOUR brand assets if they were stolen from you?

[brozek]

Well, I think we should all help out Kiya, and order a shit load of denim right now because there will be a couple weeks where they will be low on stock.

I think we already are. I just called to order a pair of S510XX 19oz - I got a busy signal the first half-dozen times I tried, and by the time I got through, they were out of 31s in every single Samurai model. Thanks, whoever sold me my awesome jeans! I was the second person in a row from Madison to call - weird.

[blank]

its really too bad levi's has to be dicks about this. couldnt they have given these companies a few weeks or months to ramp down production and give the retailers a chance to liquidate stock? set the date for march or june. its not like any of these companies sell enough jeans to hurt levi's. and if they are cutting into levi's sales at all its only because levi's has consistantly failed to capitalize on their own history (and trademarks) by not making jeans that equal or exceed the quality of the japanese companies.

I don't mean to pick on your post specifically, cultpop, but I can't believe how shortsighted some of you guys on superfuture are. How is LEVI'S being the dick here? LEVI'S is in the wrong for suing other companies from reproducing their model of jeans? The other companies didn't need a minute of warning, since they've been reproducing someone else's cut for years. It's not like they didn't know it, and it's not like Levi's owes something to these other companies who, as they see it, have been taking their market share.

Whether or not these repro companies make better jeans thatn Levi's is irrelevant. Levi's has worked for over a century to become the iconic name in denim, and as stylish or cool or even flattering as it may be for other companies to repro the Levi's jeans, the bottom line is that they are infringing too closely on Levi's intellectual property, right down to the signature details that make up a pair of Levi's.

And lest we all forget, that at the end of the day, Levi's is a business, and while it probably cares about preserving denim and history and tradition, it's more concerned with the bottom line, and that is making money, and it's ignorant for anybody to fault Levi's for doing all that is in their power to ensure that they keep their business running strong.

[sidneylo]

this may just be the dawn of a new renaissance in denim. the best denim makers in the world being forced to up the ante and step out from the shadow and stranglehold that levi's has held for too long imo. i for one am excited to see what kind of iconography the japanese market can come up with now. i mean nudie, dior, and even ande whall have done alright with branding without referencing or outright copying so why cant samurai?

We'll get out of our homotional responses soon.

Let's support the fuck out of the brands we love--show them that they can stand on their own two feet without the repro. Let's embrace the new, and rock the new steez. I bet Levi's will be fucking jealous. Bitches.

[mikesduc]

I talked to Gordon at 7:30 EST and he is not selling anything in question at the moment. Yuji is in Japan right now though so hopefully we'll get some reliable info soon.

[drapygo]

That's true, would be interesting to see what they come up with.

If the Japanese stayed out of America and only exported jeans to us would that of prevented all this?

[blank]

again, not to pick on you, cult, but...

exactly. if levis was making a quality product the japanese repro industry would not have sprung up in the first place.

that's just not true. even if levi's was making a quality product, if cane or samurai came out with a really cool repro, then people would want it too, because they'd want to add to their denim game or their levi's collection or something like that. i doubt that even if levi's was putting out quality products (and though i don't own any, i know that a lot of people, many superfuturians included, still love levi's, LVC, capital E, and the traditional macy's brand and won't buy anything else) that if a really sweet repro was launched, people would say, "no, i don't need those sugarcanes, because my original levi's are so good."

i mean in the history of denim the japanese have probably been consistantly the highest quality (at least in the last 20 years or so) so they should stop giving levi's anymore undeserved recognition and respect.

if the japanese were of the highest quality construction, why could they never have the highest quality design? why did they have to rip off a classic american style? that's like someone re-shooting The Godfather with different actors and a different score, because they recognized the superiority of the script, but thought that they could put their own twist on it, and then getting MAD when someone comes after them! it's blatant as can be, and i think it's because this small group of people on sufu are so dedicated to the japanese cause that they think Levi's is the wrong party in this suit.

[jwied82]

My thinking is pretty much the same as yours Cult.

If these japanese companies have the means to make superior quality jeans, why do they have to go copying levis in the first place? To me it actually cheapens their product in a sense. but, i have a more modern view of levis and not so much a historical view, and im not really taking into account the japanese love of americana.

But, my complaint isnt really in the details.. i like the idea of vaguely copying the arcuate and the leather patch (the pigs on the sda patch is brilliant) and having a red tab with company name or logo on it. The thing i really dont understand is the making of repro cuts. i haven't seen a repro cut being worn that i was impressed with the fit of.

But, ive never tried on a pair of actual levis that i liked the fit of all that well.

i think of it this way, Levis jeans were designed for Americans, not japanese. And generally i dont think they fit American all that well, so they definately won't fit the japanese consumer well. I know that what im saying is a broad generalization, but i do think there is some validity to it. And i realize that for the most these companies arent making only repro cuts.

[TragicBliss]

I don't wear Levi's or repro denim so I couldn't care less. Maybe now they'll get off Levi's nuts and make more progressive cuts with blank back pockets. Maybe if Levi's had any balls they would step their game up and cater to the market that the companies they're attacking cater to. Whatevs.

[drapygo]

I have never baught or worn anything by LEVI'S. I was thinking of buying one, but now, I don't think so. I understand that LEVI'S has all the right to do this but, they didn't have to take it this far all at once. Could have just talked it out. Then take it to the next level if the didn't come to an agreement.

[jwied82]

I don't mean to pick on your post specifically, cultpop, but I can't believe how shortsighted some of you guys on superfuture are. How is LEVI'S being the dick here? LEVI'S is in the wrong for suing other companies from reproducing their model of jeans? The other companies didn't need a minute of warning, since they've been reproducing someone else's cut for years. It's not like they didn't know it, and it's not like Levi's owes something to these other companies who, as they see it, have been taking their market share.

Whether or not these repro companies make better jeans thatn Levi's is irrelevant. Levi's has worked for over a century to become the iconic name in denim, and as stylish or cool or even flattering as it may be for other companies to repro the Levi's jeans, the bottom line is that they are infringing too closely on Levi's intellectual property, right down to the signature details that make up a pair of Levi's.

And lest we all forget, that at the end of the day, Levi's is a business, and while it probably cares about preserving denim and history and tradition, it's more concerned with the bottom line, and that is making money, and it's ignorant for anybody to fault Levi's for doing all that is in their power to ensure that they keep their business running strong.

Considering levis is a business, wouldnt it make more sense for them use their resources to produce jeans that people actually want to wear instead of going after competitors? i understand it is their right to do so, but in a way it does make them seem desperate and shows how poorly managed the brand has been for the last 15+ years.

[blm14]

Damn, that sucks. I love Levi's but I hope they lose this battle. I want the ability to purchase Japanese repros.

Is a repro without the little red tag and the arcutate really NOT a repro? I dunno, eternals dont have arcutates, nor do PBJs etc. Just seems like a big deal over nothing. Levis has the right to enforce their trademarks...

[blank]

I have never baught or worn anything by LEVI'S. I was thinking of buying one, but now, I don't think so. I understand that LEVI'S has all the right to do this but, they didn't have to take it this far all at once. Could have just talked it out. Then take it to the next level if the didn't come to an agreement.

What would that conversation have gone like?

LEVI'S: Hey, cane and sammy, stop reproducing our jeans.

REPRO COMPANIES: Nah, we're cool, thanks.

LEVI'S: Then, give us a cut of the profits.

REPRO: Nope, no can do.

LEVI'S: Well, youre taking our idea, and we'd like you to stop.

REPRO: You know, you're right. We will willfully cease production of our well-selling denim brands because you asked nicely, and completely restructure our business model and start from the ground up. Thanks for being courteous, Levi's.

[ktouran6923]

ummmm what about peeps like me who preordered those 19 oz oni's...........

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[blank]

Considering levis is a business, wouldnt it make more sense for them use their resources to produce jeans that people actually want to wear instead of going after competitors? i understand it is their right to do so, but in a way it does make them seem desperate and shows how poorly managed the brand has been for the last 15+ years.

Ummm...again with the narrowminded thing

Do you walk around the streets of the United States? The ratio of people wearing off-the-shelf Levi's from Macy's or JC Penney or Sears or Target or Urban Outfitters is probably 1,000 or 5,000 to 1 person wearing a pair of Japanese repros. Just because people HERE don't like them doesn't mean Levi's doesn't product jeans that people "actually want to wear"

Joe Shmoe doesn't do construction or go bowling or assemble a bicycle in a pair of Flat Head's. He does it in a pair of Levi's that he bought from Kohl's.

[Chicken]

From what I have always understood, the levis arcuate is the oldest continuous patent still in existance.

maybe in the u.s., but definitely not in the world:

http://www.schwimmerlegal.com/2002/10/some_of_the_old.html

It's trademarks that Levi's claim are being infringed. The arcuate and the two horse patch are trademarked in Japan - I have been told that the red tag isn't.

i'm with a lot of you here. levi's do have every right to protect their own trademarks. i can understand the arcuate and the two-horse patch. but ANY tab attached between two pieces of fabric on the rear pockets? that's like saying no automobile company is allowed to ever put any hood ornament on their cars because ford trademarked a hood ornament, first.

Even if something happen, or we have to change something like red tag or so, we never stop making SAMURAI JEANS with high quality.

I think there is a way.

there have been many cases in history where creativity has broken through many different forms of restrictions, censorship and conformity. i'm sure this is nothing japanese (and other) artisans can't handle.

...I wish they would put as much effort into upholding the quality of their LVC range as they have on this legal action. Many people have turned to Japanese competitors precisely because LVC don't produce the models, or the finishes, that people want.

amen.

[poly800rock]

check BIG!!!!

[dasman989]

The okinawa's are fucking amazing..... the deatil level on them is sick. all i have to say is "python skin patch"

We'll get out of our homotional responses soon.

Let's support the fuck out of the brands we love--show them that they can stand on their own two feet without the repro. Let's embrace the new, and rock the new steez. I bet Levi's will be fucking jealous. Bitches.

[jwied82]

Ummm...again with the narrowminded thing

Do you walk around the streets of the United States? The ratio of people wearing off-the-shelf Levi's from Macy's or JC Penney or Sears or Target or Urban Outfitters is probably 1,000 or 5,000 to 1 person wearing a pair of Japanese repros. Just because people HERE don't like them doesn't mean Levi's doesn't product jeans that people "actually want to wear"

Joe Shmoe doesn't do construction or go bowling or assemble a bicycle in a pair of Flat Head's. He does it in a pair of Levi's that he bought from Kohl's.

to tell the truth, considering how many different options of all price ranges there are for denim, i dont see a whole lot of levis being worn lately. i see more mall chain-store brand (express, am. eagle, hollister) than anything else really, at least on young people. On the older male set i see more rustler and wrangler.

And when I do see levis, nowadays its mostly the Levis Strauss Signature Collection, aka the cheap-ass shitty levis (without an arcuate even, if i remember right!) that are sold at k-mart and wal-mart. So instead of taking pride in their heritage and making quality products, they make the worst possible product (well, levis probably doesnt make them, just sells the name) for the lowest common denominator consumer. So now they go after japanese companies who are paying homage to the heritage of levis, all the while desecrating and disregarding their own heritage with their product line.

[Astérix]

I'm just curious what point there is in doing so. These niche Japanese brands aren't even close to being on the same level as Levis sales are on, and never will be. These Japanese brands aren't taking loads of business away from Levis. These Japanese brands aren't even readily available to really do any harm against Levis. To the average person, Samurai, SDA, etc just look like another pair of Levis. Sure Levis could argue it was their design first; but the analogy with the hood ornaments was spot on IMO.